Radeon and Win2000

jg38141

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What's with all the w2k people and their radeons? Radeons often have trouble on w2k because their drivers aren't mature. That's it. Almost every post with ATI problems is w2k related. Some don't have problems, but many, many do. If you want everything to run right put 98se on, not Me, and suffer the occasional blue screen like everyone else. Otherwise take the stable system with the driver issues and just wait, and with ATI you may have to wait a long time.

"Are you saying that I can dodge bullets?"
 

breed33

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I agree with you for the most part. You need to qualify your statements even more. If you peruse the messages here you will see that you need to add AMD into the mix with Radeon and W2k as the culprits.

I had an Athlon 1GHz, W2K, and an AIW radeon. I could not get anything but the TV tuner to work in it. I tried everything from drivers to the ACPI settings (which was totally useless). The card worked better in Win98se like you suggested, but still had issues with DVD playback.

Now, the same card and the same video drivers work absolutely flawlessly on my new PIII system with an Asus CUSL2 in Win2K and in win98se.

So in part you are absolutely correct. New drivers, when they are available, will probably solve the problems. The thing is though that a Radeon user should not be forced to use a weak OS such as the 9X series, when a pretty strong competitor is available such as W2K. But if all youi are doing is home computing and gaming the 9X series is probably fine.

Brian

P.S. I haven't yet seen one user who has the Radeon AIW card and is able to watch DVDs in W2K without problems.
 

jg38141

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I'll concede to that, that most problems are with AMD motherboards, but I bet that has more to do with radeon incompatibility with via's athlon chipsets than anything else.

"Are you saying that I can dodge bullets?"
 

Kodiak

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>> work absolutely flawlessly on my new
>> PIII system with an Asus CUSL2 in Win2K

ironically, if my memory serves me correctly, Hobbit (the most vehement opposer of ATI AIW and ATI in general) had that exact configuration :smile:

and again it works fine (for now:) on my AMD in Win2k & WinME... one just never knows, people have problems with Geforce2, with ATI, with Intel, with AMD, with everything... sometimes it seems that people with exact same configurations have completely different experience... makes it hard to generalize things, so I try not to... that's why I think generic statemets ("ATI Sucks" or "ATI Rules") just don't apply... to each his/her own, in more ways than one :smile:
 
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I'm in the problem boat and I am on W98 with my Radeon. I would have to concur that it is with ATI and Via.
(but the real question is who is going to bend first and amend the drivers?)

"It's not something I'm proud of, just something I'm good at"
 

Hobbit

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ATI FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE

I will never buy another ATI product. ATI sucks. The new ATI Radeons suck. The drivers don’t work for scat on win2k. Driver updates are non-existent as in the past. They have no toll free tech support. Their new Radeon cards ship with win2k drivers, which don’t work properly. If you want to feel scat on buy Radeon.

NOTE: I bought two of the ATI AIW Radeon cards for two systems both identical accept in the amount of ram and a few different peripherals. Niether card worked on either system properly. Don’t believe me take a look around people are starting to figure it out for themselves. Some people will say I should stop complaining and switch to a different operating system like win98SE. Those same people are enabling ATI to get away with this crap.

Asus CUSL2
P3 700 (Not OC) Not necessary really. Can do 933 fine though.
320MB SDRAM PC133 Cas2
SBLive Platinum 5.1
2 Maxtor 45GB AT100 7200
Maxtor AT100 Controller
Toshiba 8x DVD
Plextor Plexwriter 8/20
Linksys 10/100 Ethernet Card

Previously Owned two V3 3500TV’s which didn’t support Win2k initially but has supported it for about half a year now and EVERYTHING worked even with the beta drivers, unlike ATI which released their newer card with Win2k drivers which don’t work with 70% of the card properly.

I wish I still had a copy of the long and detailed report I typed out to them concerning problems with their card. In the phone calls to them (which the customer pays for) they could not help me but were interested in my errors as some had already been reported and some were new to them and some helped them figure out more in detail why certain errors would occur. They encouraged a detailed write up. I did them a favor at my own expense and time and then they replied with we will only fix problems reported to a significant degree… Only if customers complain enough will they bother fixing problem. What a joke. In other words they know of problems but are not fixing them until their customers really start complaining in droves.

Under win2k these are the problems I encountered. All games using Glide of which I probably own 40 have graphics that look like [-peep-] and are too dark which cannot be fixed without second hand programs or special tweaking instructions/editing of CFG files etc... (3DFX had a Gamma slider allowing you to brighten or darken Direct 3d or Glide games independently besides the desktop quickly solving this problem. Direct3d, which works on some games, looks like crap on some (examples: Diablo 2, Quake one) and good on others… Compare Diablo 2 using 3DFX Glide versus Radeon Direct3d ((pixilated and snowy), (Radeon fails if you try Glide)). TV looks good but the downloading of the TV schedule fails half the time. TV out onscreen ATI software controls for turning the TV on and off do not work at all. When you plug in your Svideo your automatically outputting your pc signal to your TV and cannot switch it on and off like you’re supposed to be able to on your pc, instead you have to reboot!, but there is more… Furthermore once you view your pc on you TV your graphics no longer fit your pc monitor screen and you end up using your mouse to scroll to areas on the peripheral of your pc monitor you cant see any longer unless you scroll there. This problem is terrible since you cannot use the controls that come with the card to switch back to using the monitor as the screen properly. What happens is that you get stuck with this scrolling problem and it doesn’t go away even when you reboot. The only way I found to fix it is to completely uninstall the drivers and then reinstall them and then set the monitor resolution low to like 640x480 and then reset it back up to whatever you want. You see upon rebooting and reinstalling the drivers the problem is still there but now if you change the resolution down to 640x480 and then back up to whatever you want it set things back to normal. This is very time consuming process. ATI never even replied to this particular problem. DVD playback, which is hardware driven stutters! This I couldn’t believe and was the last straw because I thought that at least worked when I first watched the beginning of the Matrix for about 30 seconds to see if it was working. Later I go to show a friend and it is stuttering as we watch it for a few minutes. Mpeg4 playback fails! ATI was aware of the Mpeg4 playback failures but has not fixed this problem yet! This card is a nightmare folks! I have forgotten much of what I wrote them detailing errors received and better descriptions of the problems but this should be enough to explain what a piece of crap ATI is foisting. Foisting (Webster): “To give somebody something inferior: to give somebody something inferior on the pretence that it is genuine, valuable, or desirable.” A good synonym for foisting would be FRAUD.
After spending about four hours total on the phone with them and getting them all the information they wanted I get no reassurances. All I get is hopefully we will have an answer to some of these problems in the future. Blah Blah Blah. Month goes by and nothing. Many people have posted on Tomshardware as to the untrustworthy nature of ATI concerning drivers and their inability to act quickly to fix driver problems. I now know what they were talking about first hand. Don’t make the same mistake. How can you purchase a card that ships with Win2k drivers today and have it not work in everything properly accept TV in? When it takes half a year to fix all the problems on such a product why bother buying it since by that time the card will be selling for less than half what you paid for it and will be half as fast as newer cards on the market. ATI is going the way of the Dodos if they continue with this irresponsible behavior.

An email I sent ATI in response to a customer support reply that was more useless than the long distance phone support.

Thank you very much for you're very kind reply... I find the information I have provided your company with at my expense much more valuable to you than the information you have provided me. Reiteration of solutions I have already tried does neither of us any good. I have returned both cards to the original retailer. In the future please refrain from releasing unfinished products. I and other customers regard such actions as unlawful. I can no longer recommend your products due to poor driver performance under win2k (I have not tested any other OS nor do I wish to do so as your product ships with supposed perfect win2k drivers), which I have tested extensively. The long list of problems with your drivers is tiresome. DVD play, which I previously thought, worked perfectly stutters randomly. In the future please don't rely on your customer base to solve your problems for you because in the end you lose valuable promotional commentary along with a good customer. No need to reply I just thought you should know how thoroughly disgusted I am with your product and your company.


Interesting Article in Worth magazine Jan 2001, by Eric Alterman.
(How I feel)
Quote:

“”This “screw the consumer’s time, it’s not costing us anything” attitude appears to exist across the entire spectrum of new technology industries. I bought a scanner from UMAX that has never worked. There’s nobody at the other end to help, at least nobody I had the patience to find. The ugly thing has been sitting on my desk, unused, for two years. And have you tried to hook up a DSL line recently” I have, and I had to give up on that, too. It turned out Verizon, the new beast created out of Bell Atlantic’s merger with just about everybody else, had not yet come up with a modem compatible with Windows Me, though apparently it neglected to mention that to the person on the phone who was all to willing to take an order and let the caller waste hours trying to make the damn thing work. Chris Taylor of Time recently wrote of spending almost six months stuck inside a similar nightmare courtesy of Pacific Bell, which given its location, really ought to know better. The truth was that the company did not even offer the service, called D-Slam, that it had promised him, as it had run out of the hardware, but it continued to advertise it because, a rep admitted, their “competitors haven’t stopped advertising yet: The worst of it is that the entire time you are wasting away on hold, watching your fingernails grow, the company brags about its new and improved service menu.
This whole sector of the economy feels like the Soviet Union: Long waiting lines, no service, contempt for the consumer, products that don’t work when shipped, but somebody with the power to create a little trouble for the big boys arrives, and everybody starts jumping. Of course, the obvious differences are that innovation barely existed in Soviet industries, while the computer manufacturers are just about the most innovative people of all time. But the net result turns out to be more suffering for the rest of us.””
 

Hobbit

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You jg38141 said: "What's with all the w2k people and their radeons? Radeons often have trouble on w2k because their drivers aren't mature. That's it. Almost every post with ATI problems is w2k related."

Gee what is with us? Hmm we all purchased a card that shipped with win2k drivers that is what is with us! We expected them to work. WTF is wrong with us expecting them to work? Gee the drivers are not "mature," that must be the problem, lol. You know what a "mature" driver is; a euphemism originally meaning buggy or "dfw - don't coitus work" fed to the public to convince us we are stupid and should not expect the drivers that come with our hardware to work properly and we should just shut up and wait a few months and maybe they will work with some newer beta drivers. Hey, just like in the Matrix which we both like and you quote, in every post, I feel like the public is being deluded. The following quote from The Matrix explains it, just substitute Matrix with ATI. "The Matrix is a system Neo that system is our enemy, when your inside you look around what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters, the very minds of the people we are trying to save but until we do these people are still apart of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inert so hopelessly dependent on the system that they will fight to protect it. Were you listening to me Neo or were you looking at the woman in the red dress.

You jg38141 are fighting to protect it.
 

Hobbit

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LOL, I believe I have finally shut you up. Cant take your own crap hahaha. Well, now just call me Neo then. I think I will copy and paste our little conversation here into my main ATI post, so everyone can see how I verbally spanked you.
 

jg38141

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Seriously though, and I can't believe I'm saying this, but to an extent I agree with you and I think you may have misunderstood me a bit. I don't think it's wrong for you to expect decent drivers. You should have them by now and it's screwed up that they still aren't out, though some say they are- but I don't know, I don't personally own an ATI card. The point I was trying to make was that people come here with their ATI problems and then all the answers they get are, "check your bios" "update drivers" "maybe the card is bad" "irq's..." "sound blaster..." "via..." etc- you get the point, a lot of answers are basically saying mess around with stuff or hardware is the problem, but the problem, I believe, is not hardware mostly (though that seems to have some to do with it) but mostly drivers. There's nothing wrong with expecting drivers to work, when they are known to work, but expecting ATI win2K drivers to work is pointless because, and I know you'll agree with me here, they often don't work. It's a known problem that people refuse to believe. It's not a hardware thing; it's a driver thing. It's like expecting Win98 to never blue screen on you. Sure it's not supposed to, but it often does, and expecting it not to and being dissapointed when it does, even though it's a known problem, is pointless. Just reboot. There may be no excuse, but no one's making you use win2k. Sure you can go off-roading in a geo metro. It was designed to drive in many conditions, mainly paved roads, but other surfaces as well. However, does that mean when it gets stuck on a large pebble you can get mad? There are win2K drivers, but the main driver push was for the system most people use win98 and Me. So because ATI win2k driver department sucks, it's safe to say to ATI owners that right now if you want your card to work right, use it on 98se or Me. The card is still a good card. When eventually ATI comes out with new and better win2k drivers then do whatever.

I may have gone way out there with the geo thing. But what the hell-

"Are you saying that I can dodge bullets?"
 

jg38141

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Don't be so cocky, I was just writing my main rebuttal after my short kidding one as you congatulated your self on your shutting me up. You should know better than to actually believe that was all I had to say.

"Are you saying that I can dodge bullets?"
 

Kodiak

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I will still say, the only possible factual rebuke I can offer, is that Win2k/AIW works for many if not most people. It works on variety of systems, including from one poster who has the CUSL2/P3/Win2k combo that hobbit has... so if one person gets it to work, and the other doesn't, and their systems are identical as far as main components go, well I can only tell you either you're not born under lucky start or you're not as smart as you think (notice that I've been giving hobbit the benefit of doubt all along and saying he was just plain unlucky:)

either way, if it doesn't work for you,return it and live your life a little... what disturbs me is that you've gone on this month-long, obsessive vendetta which has little purpose and is in the end misinformative, as you can't possibly claim that all the company's products suck and they're all stupid etc if it didn't work for YOU...

seriously, *get a life*:)
(and maybe you should see somebody who'll help you, uhm, "unfocus" from the whole ATI business...:)
 

Hobbit

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If no one "complained" the rest of us would be doomed to make the same mistakes. "I will still say, the only possible factual rebuke I can offer, is that Win2k/AIW works for many if not most people." Lol, you have no facts here. I say the same thing but bet that it is actually that Win2k/AIW works for some people and all of it works for more than likely no one. Either way what a sorry record ATI has.
 

Hobbit

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Tiny bit of light shinning through. Best and most curteous post I have gotten from you yet. I know that statement is ironic and hypocritical. I do not agree that I should expect ATI win2k drivers to not work. Neither should ATI. Dont you see what your allowing ATI and other hardware companies to do. The next step will be the sale of hardware which the consumers have to right their own drivers for but they wont know that till they buy it. lol
 

jg38141

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I don't think you should expect them not to work, but since they don't work for many people, I'm just saying that you shouldn't be surprised when they don't. It's no secret that we disagree on this point. I do believe though, as long as microsoft keeps comming out with new os's every two years or so and not releasing the required info. to companies to build decent drivers for the os long in advance to its release, that graphics drivers will often not have the time to be perfected before they are obsolete. Look out for windows Whistler already in beta- installed it last week just to see what it was like and I'm back to 98se now- it's supposedly the combination of Me and 2k. I'm thinking the instability of winMe and the incompatibility of 2k. But that's just a guess

"Are you saying that I can dodge bullets?"
 

Hobbit

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Right out of my main post about ATI sucking are the following words. Maybe you have not read my newer revisions. ATI has no excuse: 3DFX a company going under at the time was able to do it. "ATI just sucks. Previously Owned two V3 3500TV’s which didn’t support Win2k initially but has supported it for well over half a year now & EVERYTHING worked even with the beta drivers, unlike ATI which released their newer card with Win2k drivers which don’t work with 70% of the card properly." Explain why 3DFX can do it but ATI cant?

"A masochist walked up to a sadist, and said 'Hurt me'. The sadist said 'No' and walked away."
 

jg38141

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3dfx has a better driver department- too bad their cards suck. ATI makes better cards and will eventually come out with better win2k drivers. Maybe you should e-mail them again and tell them to get on the stick. =P

"Are you saying that I can dodge bullets?"
 

Hobbit

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I would and do stay with cards that works with everything without my having to do battle with my pc and tech support and wiat for drivers etc. Personally I have always liked 3DFX because of their great drivers and hope they somehow make a comeback.

"A masochist walked up to a sadist, and said 'Hurt me'. The sadist said 'No' and walked away."
 
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Make a comeback after they have had all of their graphics assets bought out???
 

Hobbit

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Sure, why not? They can have a fresh go of things. Hopefully, ATI will end up being Nvidia's next victim. It will be ironic when it turns out poor drivers and poor support are heavily blamed for their ultimate chicken choking asphyxiation. Nvidia, is positioning itself to help them change hands and gain a stroke in that regard. http://biz.yahoo.com/oo/001019/41694.html

http://biz.yahoo.com/oo/001019/41694.html

"A masochist walked up to a sadist, and said 'Hurt me'. The sadist said 'No' and walked away."
 

noko

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I have a Radeon 64 VIVO retail and had it since October of 2000. Dual boot setup with WinMe/W2k. DVD works well in both operating systems (flawless). 2d quality on my 20" trinitron monitor is the best I've seen, I just laught at my friends GTS II 2d quality. Drivers now are very stable and in W2k as far as I can tell are crashproof. This hasn't always been the case but in 3 months time ATI did some real good work getting this card to work on my via KX-133 system (Abit KA7). The newest Via's 427/428 beta drivers was really what was holding back the Radeon on my type of machine. Not the ATI drivers. Some people don't realize that the Radeon has alot more features than your average video card. As in DVD, Video in, Video out. More features for problems. Now I am very happy with my setup not to mention the outstanding 3d game performance. For me FPS is not the only performance factor, 32 bit color, sharpness, quality of rendering, FSAA, as well as overall consistency in frame rate is my judgement of performance. Radeon seems to surpass on all of these except for peak frame rate. Now 3d game performance in W2k is my only issue I have with my Radeon. When that is solved bye bye to WinMe. :cool:
 

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