Razer Green Switches: Don't Call Them Kailh

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M0j0jojo

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The question is how much of this is in demand. and is it worth so much research and development. I honestly just use a Dell keyboard, and a Microsoft mouse, and still have fun with games.
 

InvalidError

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The primary target audience for premium gaming keyboards is competitive gamers where every millisecond they can shave between scene output from the game engine to the GPU for rendering and user response matters - shaving a millisecond here and there might not make much of a difference individually but 20ms or more cumulatively certainly will.

For more casual types, like you or me, even a 10-15 years old membrane keyboard like the one I am using right now still gets the job done.
 

Quixit

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The primary target audience for premium gaming keyboards is competitive gamers where every millisecond they can shave between scene output from the game engine to the GPU for rendering and user response matters - shaving a millisecond here and there might not make much of a difference individually but 20ms or more cumulatively certainly will.

For more casual types, like you or me, even a 10-15 years old membrane keyboard like the one I am using right now still gets the job done.
Realistically, where it makes the biggest difference is touch typing. If you do a lot of typing a mechanical keyboard that has one of the switch types that activates before the key bottoms out is much easier on your hands. I bought a Razer Blackwidow right after they came out to replace a massively old IBM-branded mechanical keyboard I was using for programming. Other than the advantage of a higher activation point they come in a few different tactile feels so you can get the one you personally like, which is nice and they're extremely durable. I'm convinced that I'll wear though the keycaps on this one (the same Razer Blackwidow) before the switches wear out.

The whole "mechanical keyboards for gaming" is mostly marketing. In fact, large numbers of pro gamers use membrane keyboards (which is one reason why Logitech, Razer and the other gamer-focused keyboard brands all make membrane keyboards for gaming).

So just buy whatever you want, if you plan on having it a long time the durability of the mechanical switches does offset their price but if you the feel of a membrane keyboard you can afford to replace it more often at the same cost.
 

wkwilley2

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The primary target audience for premium gaming keyboards is competitive gamers where every millisecond they can shave between scene output from the game engine to the GPU for rendering and user response matters - shaving a millisecond here and there might not make much of a difference individually but 20ms or more cumulatively certainly will.

For more casual types, like you or me, even a 10-15 years old membrane keyboard like the one I am using right now still gets the job done.
Realistically, where it makes the biggest difference is touch typing. If you do a lot of typing a mechanical keyboard that has one of the switch types that activates before the key bottoms out is much easier on your hands. I bought a Razer Blackwidow right after they came out to replace a massively old IBM-branded mechanical keyboard I was using for programming. Other than the advantage of a higher activation point they come in a few different tactile feels so you can get the one you personally like, which is nice and they're extremely durable. I'm convinced that I'll wear though the keycaps on this one (the same Razer Blackwidow) before the switches wear out.

The whole "mechanical keyboards for gaming" is mostly marketing. In fact, large numbers of pro gamers use membrane keyboards (which is one reason why Logitech, Razer and the other gamer-focused keyboard brands all make membrane keyboards for gaming).

So just buy whatever you want, if you plan on having it a long time the durability of the mechanical switches does offset their price but if you the feel of a membrane keyboard you can afford to replace it more often at the same cost.
I agree completely and even though I'm typing this on a mechanical keyboard right now, I prefer a decent membrane keyboard for gaming, especially since my wife goes to sleep much earlier than I on the weekends......
 

stoned_ritual

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The gaming market has become the new audiophile market. Full of snake oil, overpriced dollar store variety parts, and marketing hype. I fall victim to this marketing as well, and it leaves a bitter taste when you purchase a product that is marketed as "premium" but is made with cheap materials that were assembled in a border-line sweatshop.
 
I do hope they produce good keyboards (my first mech was a razer blackwidow, I think it was their first ever)
they have some good products (reliability is a suspect - mouse) but they do have premium price unfortunately
 

alextheblue

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I do hope they produce good keyboards (my first mech was a razer blackwidow, I think it was their first ever)
they have some good products (reliability is a suspect - mouse) but they do have premium price unfortunately
Agreed on Razer mice reliability. For that reason more than any other (even than price) I typically recommend a higher-end Logitech for gaming. For any other use, generally a more affordable Logitech or MS mouse is fine.
#?sponsored?

Stll the cherry are more reliable and better build quality.
Hah maybe so, hard to say with a Razer-provided sample size of 1. But it sounds like they're taking quality seriously and I am glad to hear that they're NOT just "rebadged Kailh" switches. Although that brings up another point... if standard Kailh switches (that we see in more designs lately) are so great, why would Razer go to all the trouble? I'm with Razer, I'll skip the Kailh switches. :p

I'd like to see how Logitech's in house switches perform too - are they just cutting costs or are they doing something similar to Razer in terms of quality control and separate assembly lines.
 

scolaner

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I do hope they produce good keyboards (my first mech was a razer blackwidow, I think it was their first ever)
they have some good products (reliability is a suspect - mouse) but they do have premium price unfortunately
Agreed on Razer mice reliability. For that reason more than any other (even than price) I typically recommend a higher-end Logitech for gaming. For any other use, generally a more affordable Logitech or MS mouse is fine.
#?sponsored?

Stll the cherry are more reliable and better build quality.
Hah maybe so, hard to say with a Razer-provided sample size of 1. But it sounds like they're taking quality seriously and I am glad to hear that they're NOT just "rebadged Kailh" switches. Although that brings up another point... if standard Kailh switches (that we see in more designs lately) are so great, why would Razer go to all the trouble? I'm with Razer, I'll skip the Kailh switches. :p

I'd like to see how Logitech's in house switches perform too - are they just cutting costs or are they doing something similar to Razer in terms of quality control and separate assembly lines.
Why did Razer go to the trouble? They wanted to make something a little different. As I explained. (Whether or not it makes much of a difference is, I believe, still up for debate.) I don't think Razer has anything against Kailh switches -- they trust Kailh as a manufacturing partner, after all.

Regarding Logitech's switches:

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/logitech-g-g-labs-testing-facility,28096.html

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/logitech-g910-orion-spark-romer-g,28101.html
 

scolaner

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Stll the cherry are more reliable and better build quality.
You're making two significant assertions one short comment.

Regarding the first: You're simply incorrect. Regarding the second: How did you arrive at this conclusion?
 

Gab___

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How much did Razer pay you guys to run this biased crap?

What a shame that this passes for a proper article.
 

Gab___

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What here is "biased crap"? Can you make some specific examples? Or are you just letting your own biases against Razer to come through?
Oh boy, where to start?
They're testing Razer provided products, on testing equipment provided by, you guessed it, Razer. That should be your first red flag.

They claim to have multiple manufactures, yet every single Razer brand switch also has Kailh branding. Either Kailh convinced another manufacturer to use their logo, or the multiple manufacturer claim is bogus.

Intense Quality assurance is immediately debunked by countless customer reviews. (See:https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/3atkzt/psaim_sensing_a_pattern_here_with_razer_keyboards/)

Yet the article states "Intense Quality Control" factually, where as an unbiased article would mention the countless failures and inconsistencies in their KAILH brand switch.


This article is just Razer trying to save face for all the bad press they've been getting for switching to a cheaper, crappier switch, without it reflecting in the price.
 

Gab___

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If you'd open the source, you'd see that it links to many.. MANY, first hand accounts of Razer keyboards failing in some way or another. Try not discrediting things without having a look first.

I can't prove that EVERY switch is Kailh branded, I don't own every board. That being said, every Razer board I've seen, in store or otherwise, uses Kailh branded switches, ranging from the Chroma to the Blackwidow TE. Kailh has their logo on each switch, it's not a huge secret.

 

RedJaron

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I suggest you look up the term "anecdotal evidence." While that certainly impacts individual purchase choices, they're insufficient to prove broad, general accusations like you're making.
 

Gab___

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While anecdotal evidence isn't perfect, it's not completely off base either, considering any product review ever is mostly anecdotal. That's neither here nor there though, you've only addressed one of my points, and the boards having bad QC or not doesn't make the article any less biased.


 

ziggyx

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It is true that Kailh (Kaihua Electronics) is one of the manufacturers of the Razer Green switch, but Razer has them made to its own specifications.
They specified very little beyond their logo by all accounts I've seen...but lets go on and see what you have.

That is to say, they are not identical to any Kailh switch.
The force/displacement characteristic of the switch may be different, but the rest of the switch is Kailh.

The Razer Green switches even run on different production lines than Kailh switches.
If Razer switches have their own characteristic, then the switch stems are different, so there would have to be a separate tool for making the stems. This kind of investment is something feasible for Razer's bottom line, probably in the 10-30k range. However, when it comes to assembly of a part like this, you need a multi-part sorter and robot. We're talking $150k starting in China. Also, the same factory floor, same engineers, and same calibration equipment as used on Kailh stock switches are also going to be used on Razer switches. So, the output likely has very little different quality-wise from stock Kailh switches.

Further, Kailh is not the only manufacturer to produce the Razer Green switch. Razer will not divulge who any other manufacturing partners are, but Kaihua Electronics is not the sole supplier.
This type of defense is the epitomy of Min-Liang Tan side-show-social-marketing. Anyone who doubts me can follow his facebook feed or twitter to see these kind verbal deflections/misdirections/untruths that occur almost weekly as a response to someone complaining about Razer's products failing. The fact is that when these switches were released, the switch housing had a Kaihua logo on them (not sure if current runs do still). It would be incredibly cost prohibitive considering the size of the mechanical keyboard market for a company (crazy Razer included) to go to another factory and ask them to re-engineer the same switch, make entirely new tooling, buy new assembly robots, new testing robots, all to knock off an Cherry MX knockoff. At the $0.10 to $0.15 per switch that Razer is buying the switches from Kaihua for, the savings just isn't there to support such a huge investment and risk of failure.

In my conversations with various Razer employees, I was struck by how intensely they manage the switch making and quality assurance process
Your list is standard factory floor process, it's like keeping a car running, so no surprise there -- to say otherwise would require a comparison between other switch manufacturers. Don't be so "impressed" so fast.

To ensure quality, the switches are inspected by hand as they come off the production line, and then Razer staff further sorts the batches of switches as an additional check.
Razer has their own factory now? More like Kaihua has employees that Razer or you is calling "theirs."

Although we hoped to use the height gauge to measure multiple switches on actual keyboards, Razer advised us against it, as that use case is outside of the scope of what the machine is designed to accurately measure.
Bait and switch. They thought you wouldn't want to try? This makes no sense. Who has the proper test equipment? Why not use that?

Note that these tests were performed on two switches total. Therefore, these findings can be extrapolated only if we assume that the manufacturing consistency from switch-to-switch is precise, and as we've already discussed, there's a great deal of tolerance in the pretravel.
Statistics do not work that way. Testing one switch cannot be extrapolated, it can only be compared to a written spec.

The echo chamber is far too prevalent when it comes to knowledge about mechanical keyboard switches, and a common myth is that Razer's switches are just Kailh rebrands.
You're part of it. And just a Razer mouthpiece by all accounts I've seen here.
 

Jay_29

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Lol, Razer is garbage. I don't care what they call their junk - green pink purple rainbow whatever. The moment I see Razer I will hesitate to buy it. I've been burned by too much of their garbage and their incompetent customer support in the past to want any more of it.

I'm 70% certain your opinion on Razer Greens are paid-for.
 

Timothy_11

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I've owned 3 Razer mechanical gaming keyboards. All 3 were dead after <6 months of usage as an everyday keyboard. While this is neat, I'll not be trusting Razer keyboards ever again.
 

turkey3_scratch

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And my $15 keyboard is going past one year perfectly fine.
 

Jay_29

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Same here.

2 blackwidows - USB pass-through stopped working, one just dies randomly
1 blackwidow tournament - flimsy USB jack breaks day 2
3 deathadder 2013 - side grip fell off, coating gets shiny
2 abyssus - clicking/tracking issues
2 naga - glue oozing out of side grip

as you can see, I buy a lot of peripherals, and I'm taking my business elsewhere. so far Logitech has been wonderful. I just ordered 4 Mionix Castors to see if I liked them.
 
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