Question Realistic in-stock B-die pricing?

Aug 9, 2019
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Hi all, I'm looking at RAM for two new Ryzen builds (3600X on x570).

DDR4 3600, cas 16-16-16-36, 8GB per module, 1.35v.

It seems that G.Skill is pretty much my only option for this speed and timings, and everywhere that has it in stock is charging about $300 for a 2x8gb kit. I see several 'out of stock' kits that are around the $160 mark.

Has the price risen lately because B-die is out of production, or has it always been around the $300 mark?

Also, if I can find a 4x8gb kit cheaper than 2 2x8 kits, is there reason why I shouldn't buy and split a 4x8gb kit between two systems?

The 4 kits I'm looking at are:

F4-3600C16D-16GTZN

F4-3600C16D-16GTZR

F4-3600C16Q-32GTZN

F4-3600C16Q-32GTZR

thank you
 

Lutfij

Titan
Moderator
You don't need to look for B-die rams since the advent of the AGESA code updates for all of AMD's boards. I would suggest you source the cheapest 2x8GB DDR4-3200MHz kit you can find and then leave it be.

Where are you located, btw?

Reason for kits, and not splitting them is that if the kit has a faulty stick of ram, you need to return the entire kit, not just the faulty stick of ram(s). If you need to purchase rams for another system, pick another kit.
 

logainofhades

Titan
Moderator
B-Die is always more expensive, and not really worth the added cost. Personally, I went with inexpensive Patriot Viper 3733, CL17, 2x8gb, as it is the fastest speed AMD stated Ryzen 3000 would do and keep a 1:1 ratio. I did have to do some bios settings changes, though, to utilize it properly.

If you want 32gb ram, you will want to do 2x16gb sticks. 4 dimms, in a dual channel system, can have issues not running at advertised speeds. Something like this.

https://pcpartpicker.com/product/w3FKHx/gskill-trident-z-neo-32-gb-2-x-16-gb-ddr4-3600-memory-f4-3600c16d-32gtznc
 

Third-Eye

Distinguished
Hi all, I'm looking at RAM for two new Ryzen builds (3600X on x570).

DDR4 3600, cas 16-16-16-36, 8GB per module, 1.35v.

It seems that G.Skill is pretty much my only option for this speed and timings, and everywhere that has it in stock is charging about $300 for a 2x8gb kit. I see several 'out of stock' kits that are around the $160 mark.

Has the price risen lately because B-die is out of production, or has it always been around the $300 mark?

Also, if I can find a 4x8gb kit cheaper than 2 2x8 kits, is there reason why I shouldn't buy and split a 4x8gb kit between two systems?

The 4 kits I'm looking at are:

F4-3600C16D-16GTZN

F4-3600C16D-16GTZR

F4-3600C16Q-32GTZN

F4-3600C16Q-32GTZR

thank you
I am not recommending this memory as it does not have XMP settings for 2400-3800Mhz, but you can get Patriot Viper Steel Series 4000Mhz for $112 on newegg. It's a bit more than I paid back in October and during Black Friday sales, but if you are fine with manually setting timings, it should work great at 3600Mhz. I haven't looked into other motherboards, but my MSI B450 board has presets for trying different memory speeds and worked fine for me when I first used it before manually setting ram speeds.

https://www.newegg.com/patriot-16gb-288-pin-ddr4-sdram/p/N82E16820225142

Edit - Forgot to mention that it is B-die.
 
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Reactions: Taymar02
Aug 9, 2019
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Thank you all very much for the insight.

I'm curious about the 4 dimms not running at advertised speeds - I ran into this exact issue on my B450 board with Ryzen 2700.

Is this likely to still be an issue with an X570 board and Ryzen 3600X please?

I read a Tom's article that showed 4 ranks of memory was faster than 2 ranks on this platform, but it didn't specifically get into whether you achieve the 4 ranks via 2 double sided dimms or 4 single-sided.

Would definitely appreciate any clarity, thanks again.
 

Third-Eye

Distinguished
Thank you all very much for the insight.

I'm curious about the 4 dimms not running at advertised speeds - I ran into this exact issue on my B450 board with Ryzen 2700.

Is this likely to still be an issue with an X570 board and Ryzen 3600X please?

I read a Tom's article that showed 4 ranks of memory was faster than 2 ranks on this platform, but it didn't specifically get into whether you achieve the 4 ranks via 2 double sided dimms or 4 single-sided.

Would definitely appreciate any clarity, thanks again.
B450 can run higher than the 2933/3000Mhz limit with 4 modules, but it takes tweaking if it crashes. X570 should be capable of minimum 3200Mhz with 4 modules with the same situation as B450/X470, but you may be able to get 3600-3733Mhz with looser timings on 570. Also, you can get the performance increase with 4 modules with either single or dual rank modules, but it's best to buy a 4 module kit instead of 2 2x kits.
 
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Reactions: Taymar02

TJ Hooker

Glorious
Herald
Just to confirm, you're only planning on using 2x8GB of RAM per system, it's just that you're building two systems and therefore need 4x8GB in total, correct?

I read a Tom's article that showed 4 ranks of memory was faster than 2 ranks on this platform, but it didn't specifically get into whether you achieve the 4 ranks via 2 double sided dimms or 4 single-sided.
"Time and time again, we’ve seen proof that two ranks of memory per channel can significantly outperform one rank per channel. [...] It doesn’t matter whether those two ranks come from two single-rank DIMMs or one dual-rank DIMM, the performance improvement is the same."

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/amd-ryzen-3000-best-memory-timings,6310-2.html

My semi-educated guess is that two dual rank sticks may be easier to run than 4 single rank, because you don't have to worry about DIMM slot topology (T topology is usually better than daisy chain for running 4 sticks). But even if I'm correct, there are so many other factors that can influence memory stability that it may not make a difference.
 
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Reactions: Taymar02
Aug 9, 2019
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Just to confirm, you're only planning on using 2x8GB of RAM per system, it's just that you're building two systems and therefore need 4x8GB in total, correct?
That was my original plan, yes. I'm building two identical systems. However, after reading the article you linked, it sounds like 4x8GB DIMMs per system, or 2x16GB DIMMs per system would give better performance.

I've found a 32gb kit of 3600mhz 4x8 C16-19-19-39 at a semi-reasonable price, and am now considering getting two of these kits (one per system).

Are you saying I'd likely be better off trying 2x16GB DIMMS per system (I haven't found any double sided 8gb DIMMS yet).

Is it likely under that set up (2x16gb, cas 16-19-19-39) I'd be able to run at 3600Mhz or is that very unlikely?

Still trying to wrap my head around how each of these specs affect the other. Pretty much I just want the fastest stable gaming performance without spending much more than about $200 per system on RAM. If there's another direction I should go I'd greatly appreciate any suggestions.

edit: To further complicate things... sounds like a DIMM being dual-sided does NOT mean it's definitely dual-rank. I just talked to G-skill tech support and they said with the 16GB DIMMS there's a chance they could be dual rank but it varies from batch to batch. Does that sound right?

Thank you guys again for the help and advice!
 
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TJ Hooker

Glorious
Herald
Keep in mind that the performance differences shown in that article are somewhat exaggerated. I believe they're benchmarking at 1080p, in which case the RTX 2070 is somewhat overkill and probably results in a CPU bottleneck. Plus they only look at the most heavily memory-dependent games/apps (most of their test suite showed no real benefit from faster memory). And even then, performance difference is 10% or less.

In a normal gaming scenario you want to pick your GPU/resolution/settings such that you're primarily GPU-bound, in which case you probably won't really notice a difference.

But if you still want to go for 4 ranks per system, you'll have the best odds of things working if you get a memory kit that's on the motherboard QVL list.
 
Reactions: Taymar02
Aug 9, 2019
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Thank you,

For what it's worth, I'm gaming in 1080p with a 1070GTX - not planning to replace video card or monitors any time soon. (the i5 2500k/motherboard is starting to fail hence the switch to the Ryzen). The CPU is maxed at 100% usage when gaming and I'm getting ~40FPS, GPU is at around 80% so I'm hoping the Ryzen will change that balance.

Looks like all the RAM I'm considering is on the QVL list, and I've verified as best I can that the motherboard I'm going to use (Asus x570 TUF) does indeed use daisy chain architecture.

Price is the only differentiator, $225 for a 4x8GB kit, $180 for a 2x16GB kit. (both G.Skill Trident Z Neo, 3600mhz & identical timings, neither is B-die). 2x16 GB kit could be dual rank or could be single rank, depending on what they send me.

To the best of my understanding, it's now looking like the 2x16GB kit would make more sense:
  • possibility of dual rank DIMMS
  • Motherboard doesn't have T-topology, better chance to hit higher speeds with 2 DIMMS
  • $40 less expensive per system
Am I missing anything/did I understand this correctly?

thanks again for walking me through this.
 

Third-Eye

Distinguished
Thank you,

For what it's worth, I'm gaming in 1080p with a 1070GTX - not planning to replace video card or monitors any time soon. (the i5 2500k/motherboard is starting to fail hence the switch to the Ryzen). The CPU is maxed at 100% usage when gaming and I'm getting ~40FPS, GPU is at around 80% so I'm hoping the Ryzen will change that balance.

Looks like all the RAM I'm considering is on the QVL list, and I've verified as best I can that the motherboard I'm going to use (Asus x570 TUF) does indeed use daisy chain architecture.

Price is the only differentiator, $225 for a 4x8GB kit, $180 for a 2x16GB kit. (both G.Skill Trident Z Neo, 3600mhz & identical timings, neither is B-die). 2x16 GB kit could be dual rank or could be single rank, depending on what they send me.

To the best of my understanding, it's now looking like the 2x16GB kit would make more sense:
  • possibility of dual rank DIMMS
  • Motherboard doesn't have T-topology, better chance to hit higher speeds with 2 DIMMS
  • $40 less expensive per system
Am I missing anything/did I understand this correctly?

thanks again for walking me through this.
Most of the benefit you would be getting from 4x modules or dual ranks per channel (4x4GB/2x16GB) is only actually possible when you manually tweak memory timings and sub timings as well as run CPU bound games. If the system is already CPU and GPU balanced for the games you are playing, you won't see as much benefit. If the game is GPU bound, you won't see any benefit at all. Most games are likely to only gain 5-10fps in a 4x configuration. Battlefield 5 is one of the few games that actually see a huge benefit to 4 vs 2 modules with something like a 20-25% fps increases if the videos on youtube are legit.

I don't see any good reasons to buy 4x8GB or even 2x16GB unless you need more than 16GB per computer or you are playing Battlefield 5.
 
Aug 9, 2019
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Where did you see that the 2x16GB kit may be single or dual rank? I'm no expert, but from what I can find most if not all consumer 16GB DIMMs should be dual rank.
I called G.Skill US support and that's what they told me - they said no way to know for sure, could be single rank, could be dual rank. I'm in the same boat as you - everything I read online suggested dual rank. (The ones I ended up getting are indeed dual rank).


Most of the benefit you would be getting from 4x modules or dual ranks per channel (4x4GB/2x16GB) is only actually possible when you manually tweak memory timings and sub timings as well as run CPU bound games. If the system is already CPU and GPU balanced for the games you are playing, you won't see as much benefit. If the game is GPU bound, you won't see any benefit at all. Most games are likely to only gain 5-10fps in a 4x configuration. Battlefield 5 is one of the few games that actually see a huge benefit to 4 vs 2 modules with something like a 20-25% fps increases if the videos on youtube are legit.

I don't see any good reasons to buy 4x8GB or even 2x16GB unless you need more than 16GB per computer or you are playing Battlefield 5.
Thank you very much. I'm not playing Battlefield 5. How would I go about determining if the games I'm playing are CPU or GPU bound? Is it as simple as watching the % utilizations in task manager while playing?
 
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TJ Hooker

Glorious
Herald
Thank you very much. I'm not playing Battlefield 5. How would I go about determining if the games I'm playing are CPU or GPU bound? Is it as simple as watching the % utilizations in task manager while playing?
Look at the highest utilization of any individual core/thread, not overall utilization. If any get close to 100%, that indicates a CPU bottleneck. I'd use something other than task manager, my favorite is hwinfo (run Sensors Only when you start it).

Another way is to see how fps changes if you turn down the resolution. If you're GPU limited you should get significantly higher FPS at a lower resolution, but if you're CPU limited it won't do much.
 
Reactions: Taymar02
Aug 9, 2019
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Thank you - so with my i5 2500k & GTX 1070, I'd see CPU usage at 100% and GPU usage at ~80%.

With the ryzen 5 3600x and same video card, I see CPU usage < 60% and GPU usage at 99%

I will dig into looking at individual cores next time, but based on the above fair to say that the ryzen upgrade has switched me from CPU limited to GPU limited?

Really good info, thank you all again - I've learned a lot :)
 

TJ Hooker

Glorious
Herald
You really need to look at individual cores to say for sure. Most games won't use all your cores, so you could be maxing out a couple but the rest might only have light to no load. Overall usage would look good but you'd still be bottlenecked.

That being said, just based on your specs I can say you've almost certainly got rid of your CPU bottlenecks in any realistic scenarios.
 
Reactions: Taymar02
Aug 9, 2019
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Got it, thank you.

If I'm now GPU bottlenecked, does that mean that any overclocking of the CPU & memory would pretty much be unnoticeable when gaming, or doesn't it quite work like that?
 

Karadjgne

Titan
Herald


Single rank means that the IC chips are in a single row, so for an 8Gb stick, data has the full 8Gb to play with. Dual rank is 2x single ranks on the same pcb, both 4Gb, run in parallel.

Because Ryzen uses Infinity Fabric, which bases core communication speeds on ram (3733MHz and below = 1:1 ratio, 3800MHz+ uses a 2:1 ratio, so works at half-speed) the use of 4x DIMMs at higher speeds gets problematic, the fabric getting confused and overwhelmed by 8 ranks of ram, not 2 or 4. That's shown on the table, 4 dual rank DIMMs (stock) will be stable upto 2667MHz, 4 single rank DIMMs stable to 2933.

Adjustments can fix that (maybe) but no guarantees.

Any DIMM with Samsung B-die is single rank. At the time of Ryzen original release, many kits using SkHynix like Corsair LPX were dual rank, so had major issues getting beyond 2667MHz while the lower Cas B-die had few issues hitting 3200MHz.

As said by Lutfij above, AGESA fixed many, if not almost all, of the rank issues, except when it comes to 4x DIMMs vs 2x DIMMs, that's more to do with how much infinity fabric process can handle, not what it can handle.
 

TJ Hooker

Glorious
Herald
Got it, thank you.

If I'm now GPU bottlenecked, does that mean that any overclocking of the CPU & memory would pretty much be unnoticeable when gaming, or doesn't it quite work like that?
Well, when people say you're CPU/GPU bottlenecked it's rarely an all or nothing thing, more like a sliding scale. The larger the bottleneck is from component X, the smaller the effects from changes to other components will be . So if you're primarily GPU limited as you likely are (which is generally what you want), changes to CPU/memory will likely have reduced effects. So for instance, I would certainly expect changes in memory speeds to have much less effect (maybe even undetectable in some cases) compared to what they were seeing in that Tomshardware article (where they were likely CPU limited).

So in short, I guess the answer to your question is "probably, but it depends" :p
 

Karadjgne

Titan
Herald
Say an i5-2500k can pre-render 60 frames a second on a game minimum. Sends those frames to a RTX2080ti which is hooked upto a 5k HDR monitor and at Ultra high quality, with DLSS and Ray Tracing enabled, can only put up 40 fps maximum. Technically that'd be a gpu bottleneck as seen by most as you are gpu limited to 40fps out of a possible 60.

Change the monitor to a 1440p and buh-bye gpu bottleneck. Now you are cpu capped.

Change the monitor to 1080p/60Hz. No more bottleneck. Both cpu and gpu are more capable than the monitor, so it doesn't matter if the 2080ti is capable of 400fps, it can only field 60. Doesn't matter how many frames the cpu can send, the gpu can only field 60. Technically a monitor refresh bottleneck, a severely under-utilized gpu and a 8 year old cpu that's sitting pretty.

Got to have all 3 in balance. If one is lacking or overwhelming, it will affect the other 2, sometimes in your favor, sometimes not. Without taking all 4 into consideration, cpu-gpu-monitor-game, broad pronouncements of 'it'll bottleneck' are bogus at best.
 
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