Rebuilding, 4790k, Skylake, 5820k, I am losing my mind, AID ME!

[andyirish]

Hey all,

I put a previous question to the forum and I don't feel it had the context and my concerns made public, so I'm reposting a very similar question here.

Some background

My System

Phenom ii x4 955 BE (Old Warhorse still functions good)
Cooler Master Elite 430 Case(Cheapo case, great airflow)
Corsair Dominator 8 GB Memory (2 x4 1600 speed)
GTX 560ti 1GB (Budget card on sale a year ago was a good upgrade over na old GTS450)
Cooler Master 500w PSU(5 years Old but still functioning)
Biostar A780L3G(Cheapo board that I maxed out 5 years ago when I uilt most of this build, hate this board - it's the cause of me doing a rebuild because while cleaning and installing new Cougar Fans and a Controller, one of the memory slots on the board died, neutering my PC.)
I have 6 140mm Cougar Fans inside the case.
A standard cheapo LG DVD Burner

In essence - this build has seen it's day....

Now here's my circumstances... over the next year or so I've been greenlit by the wife to drop 2000-2500 into a new system, which is great.

I only have $650 to begin the process of a new build though in a couple weeks.

I have gone back and forth through the internet on many sites and threads and seen a lot f PRO's and CON's to the route, I want to go... I'll outline them here.

I am debating between an i7 5820k with an MSI X99 Gaming 7 Board and the i7 4790k with whichever board to toss with it....

A) I understand that the 6-Core 5820 is more of a workstation/multimedia editing CPU currently meant for applications that run more then 4 cores with more threads... I get that. However, when it's overclocked it is either equal to or an unnoticbale slip behind the 4790k in gaming performance.

If I go to the Z97 Platform, my upgrade path is nil, that platform is at it's end.

I want a build with an eye on an upgrade path over the next couple of years, I don't want to be stuck with whatever I buy now with a CPU/MOBO combo. I want to get 3-4 years out of this build for gaming purpose sprimarily but also some photo and video editing as well.

The largets crux here is wether games shortly are going to utilize 4 or 6 cores... if I get the 4790k I have to be concerned when games begin using more then 4 cores... if I get the 5820k, I don't... so I see the 5820k as an insurance policy that will last longer on an x99 platform then 4790k with no performance impact... most people eye the pricetag of DDR4 Ram, the Mobo, etc. - not a major concern of mine... i don't have limitless funds, so I can't build a super computer, but for my purposes, getting the X99 is not a money issue.

I'm leaning toward the 5820k because I see the x99 Platform having a longer life and it has a capacity for DDR4 memory now, which is expensive but in a couple years will be the norm... if I go the 4790k route, I'll hae to upgrade to a suitable motherboard in 2 years anyway to get DDR4 capability, which I can get now - so even thuogh a 4790k on ym startup budget of 650 gets more performance now, it will be more expensive and less pwoerful then the x99 and 5820k over time, I believe....

However, here's the kink and rub -

Based off what I read and review the Skylake processors are coming very, very shortly, with new motherboards and sockets as well... well, that's great and all but I'm wondering if waiting for months up to possibly a year to assemble a build like that is worth the performance gains between a 5820k and Skylake.... I won't get to utilize Skylake but the X99 should carry me through into the next tech evolution beyond Cannonlake, I imagine.

I think I'm in the corner of getting the 5820k with that MSI Board, slapping 8 Gigs of DDR4 into it... using my stock heatsink and temperature in the case until I get a proper h100i water solution and new case, then upgrading my DDR4 ram a bit and at christmas getting a Titan X or 2... I think that would turn into a heck of a build...

Also, my measly 500w PSU would be REALLY pushing the limits if I install the MSI Board and 5820k into my current build, wouldn't it? I think 500w wouldn't explode and should run without overclocks for a minute until I replace the PSU... my eye is on premium gaming for the lognest term of time i can, with a capacity to upgrade on supported sockets and chipsets...

 

[synphul]

The 5820k is kind of in the middle. It does have more cores/threads than the 4790k. It also has more pcie lanes, 28 vs 16 but not enough to run sli at x16/x16. It would run triple sli at x8/x8/x8. That's only if running sli is important to you (no idea what your future plans are). To get 40 pcie lanes you'd need to go with a 5930k at least and that's a healthy price jump.

Even if games utilize more than 4 threads, the 4790k being hyperthreaded will support up to 8 threads despite being a quad core. The z97 platform is about to be outdated, but so is the x99 once skylake comes out with their enthusiast lineup. The x99/enthusiast segment sees updates less often than mainstream desktop platforms. You would have room on the x99 to upgrade, but a cpu upgrade will mean $550-1000 for just the cpu. Is that a viable upgrade path for you in the future? For most that's enough to buy the latest high end desktop cpu + motherboard and then some.

As fast as motherboard sockets are updated with roughly every other release of a cpu there's no such thing as 'future proof'. Spending more money now won't necessarily ensure you won't have to upgrade. From a budget standpoint, say you go x99 so you have something to upgrade to. You're paying a premium for ram, the motherboard and the cpu, a solid $200 or so over what you would on a z97 based system (since skylake isn't physically out yet). Your cpu upgrade path means an additional $550-1000. $750-1200 (x99 plus a cpu upgrade) is far more than it would cost to buy a new mainstream cpu/mobo. Currently a 4790k will take you well past cannonlake I'd imagine.

Most people with first gen i5's/i7's are just now looking to upgrade to 4th gen haswell/devil's canyon and those with i5 2500k or i7 2600k are potentially seeing enough improvement with skylake to consider a worthwhile upgrade. The 'tick tock' cycle of intel is typically 'tick' as an efficiency die shrink over the previous chip and the 'tock' which keeps the smaller die and improves performance. Sandy bridge, haswell and skylake are all the main performance increases seen in recent intel chips and they're all 'tocks'. Cannonlake will be to skylake what broadwell was to haswell, a die shrink/efficiency improvement. It may improve in the future but unless running heavy memory intensive tasks, ddr4 isn't bringing any real world performance over ddr3. Same when ddr3 took over for ddr2.

The 500w psu should be plenty to handle the 5820k with 560ti for the time being as a temporary hold over. If you really want ddr4 on a more affordable platform, the z107 boards have already started to be showcased so skylake isn't too far off, maybe another month or two for mainstream. Also dx12 is coming and eventually games will start to use it more and more starting next year sometime. While it does allow for scaling of more threads, it will aid all cpus. The ones standing to gain the most transferring more work to the gpu and freeing the cpu to interact more directly with the gpu are the cpus which are currently struggling as it is. The amd fx lineup and core i3's. It will allow more gpu processing on less powerful cpus. I5's and i7's will see a little less benefit mainly because they're not struggling to begin with.

It's your call and I don't think you'd really go wrong either way but if it were me this is how I see it. X99 has an upgrade path where z97 is capped at the 4790k. I have one of two choices with x99, buy the motherboard and cpu as a set that will have to last the life of the system and require another cpu/mobo combo later when it's time to upgrade anyway. The other choice is to upgrade on my existing motherboard which will cost me at minimum $550 for the next cpu level up which is still a hex core and will only get me the full 40 pcie lanes (if I needed them) or jump $1000 to actually get more cores with a 5960x. If I'm going to be stuck with whatever cpu/mobo I purchase now and have to replace them both next time around (to avoid the expensive cpu upgrades) it really doesn't matter which I go with - no less 'stuck' with the x99 than the z97 (or z107 for skylake). Taking advantage of having room to grow with x99, now I have to weigh out, is $550-1000 worth just a cpu? Or would I have been better off to save the extra cost in initial layout for x99 and save the $550-1000 and instead put it toward an all new chipset/cpu with updated tech (and probably still save cash)?

 

[andyirish]

So to make a bottom line out of that... you would say grab the 4790k between the two options, or wait until Skylake comes out with at least new motherboards compatible?

Might that be my best option since I'm beginning a new build... should I just wait until Skylake Mobo comes out? I've heard they're coming out in a couple months from now and it would onyl be 4-6 weeks difference in time between me making purchases... are people believing solid Skylake CPU's and Motherboards are goingto be good? Would a Skylake Motherboard be more powerful for gmaing then x99?

 

[andyirish]

I guess ultimately I'm asking, is the 4790k better then any Skylake offering anytime soon for gmaing purposes? Or are the very first Skylake CPU offering going to just completely blow away a 4790k? My main goal is gaming...

 

[synphul]

No way of knowing, the broadwell's released so far have been the lower power (less performance) oriented which is kind of backwards. It's just my speculation but I'd heard several times that intel didn't even want to bother with broadwell for desktop so they may just be killing time for skylake. As far as I know skylake is supposed to lead with their unlocked cpu's for z107. It might be worth waiting for, skylake will be using ddr4. It'll be interesting to see actual benchmarks, pretty much everyone's been dying to see them so I'm sure bench's will be out as soon as chips are available. General speculation has been anywhere from 10-20% improvement over haswell. With a die shrink and better efficiency, improved instructions per clock we may see similarly or just slightly slower clocked skylakes that still outperform the 4790k.

The current i5's are strong chips, the i7's are better binned versions of the i5's with extra cache and hyperthreading along with faster speeds out of the box before overclocking. The 4790k's aren't weak by any means and in terms of raw 'horsepower' are the fastest/strongest gaming cpu's intel has. Even the games which are multithreaded are still heavily loading one or two primary cores and make use of fast/strong cores. I would assume skylake to be somewhat better than haswell/devils canyon but how much better no one knows until they're put to the test. z107 will bring a few extra pcie lanes for multiple m.2 and sata express ports as well as ddr4.

You mention a gtx titan, here's some recent game benchmarks. This has a comparison with the x4 980

http://www.techspot.com/review/1006-the-witcher-3-benchmarks/page5.html
http://www.techspot.com/review/991-gta-5-pc-benchmarks/page6.html
http://www.techspot.com/review/956-dying-light-benchmarks/page5.html

Not sure which games or what type of games you play, results can vary from game to game. Some brand new games are more forgiving of hardware than some older games were and other new games are struggling at high/ultra with an i7 4790k, 16gb of ram and a gtx 980 or crossfired 290x's to maintain 30fps @ 1080. It will always be a roll of the dice, there's no one perfect setup that will run all games wonderfully and if a new game is released glitchy and full of bugs (as many are anymore) they can cripple even the best systems leaving people hoping for a patch.

 

[andyirish]

I suppose I'm still torn... now I'm considering hunkering donw withe 5820k and that MSI Board with DDR4 memory... because that should last me passed cannonlake and I would be able to maintain DDR4 memory on the MSI Board.... either way I go, I don't think I'll have a rocking Skylake MOBO/CPU price-for-performance that'll match the 5820k for at least a year... i like the fact that getting the 5820k gives me options to add even a third video card, to use DDR4 ram, many of the features of the X99 Mobo's.... i think if i was buying longterm, i like the 5820k over the 4790k - now here's the ultimate question, does anyone have any specifics as to wether anytime soon there will be a Skylake CPU/Motherboard set that will exceed the X99 with the 5820k, as far as cores and threads go? If something that'll blow the 5820k and an X99 out of the water is coming in a couple months, I'll hold off... otherwise, opinions on me just snagging the 5820k and the x99 and running that for 2-3 years until something passed Skylake comes out?

 

[lazyboy947]

If ur near a microcenter u can get a x99 bundle with the 5820k for less than some of their bundles z97 i7 bundles. DDR4 on the cheap side hit ddr3 pricing of a few months ago, as 8gb and 16gb dimms just lowered in price on ddr3, and the cheapest 8gb ddr4 is normally plain crucial 2133 around $65-75. All X99 boards are quality so no problem picking one there.

Other than the core count, the two cpus are made from the same architecture and both perform and overclock quite well. I went with x99 because i only paid $550 for my cpu, board, and 8gb ram. I also do not plan to upgrade from x99 for the next two years or so. I used a oc'd x6 until late 2013 and a oc'd 8320 until jan of 2015, and am still using a wat now seems old based off of age 7970 for two years so. at least for me the overkill of x99 for gaming was worth it just because of the cores, whether or not i needed them.

By the time u think ull need an upgrade on either platform will most likely just end up in a platform change, its usually the same thing with thinking about going sli or crossfire instead of getting a new card, usually just buy something completely new instead of upgrading. From the posts above, spending whatever cost on the later x99 cpu if not the base cpu will be the cost of that gens cpu and board. Also DX12 is suppose to lower cpu use, so really either platform should last longer as games have become quite dependent on its gpu with a cpu that is top tier. I mean i saw zero fps increase from Phenom II x6 to the FX 8 cores with the same graphics card and x99 saw again zero, so in my case a gpu upgrade would of had more benefit.

Did u consider just getting a new psu, and a gpu to start ur build and then see how skylake ends up?

Multithreaded apps really benefit from the 5820k, and gaming while running other apps is nice as the 5820k leaves plenty of cpu resources. People always say ull spend alot more on x99 than z97, yet the cpu is only $50 more, ddr4 on the cheap side is maybe $20, and a board, can be equivalent to mid to high end z97 boards at around $180-200, which most getting 4790k go for....

 

[synphul]

Microcenters do have great deals if there's one close by. I see a couple x99 boards for $160ish on pcpartpicker, the rest are $200+ where a decent z97 board can be had for $130-140 or less. Ddr4's come down a bit, only around $30 more for a 2x8gb kit vs ddr3. I agree about the video cards, a lot needs to be considered. Sli and crossfire don't always play nice and can require a lot of fiddling to get them to work properly in some cases. Great for 4k if someone's going that route. Kind of need to weigh out the pros and cons and would be better to sli from the start or just get a better single card. I've tried attacking it from the viewpoint of 'well I'll just get this card now and crossfire or sli later on' and by the time 'later on' arrives there are better single solutions than adding another card and dealing with the headaches of multi gpu configurations. If the added features of a 5820k are appealing, go for it. Either one will easily last 2-3 years. Those with 4yr old i5 2500k's are still in a period of debate whether or not the cost of current hardware is worth it for the slight performance increase.

 

[andyirish]

This is just a heck of a time to make a decision, in all my research, I see. So close the Skylake Socket Releasing, I'm still a month or so away and very near to that time those motherboards may release... do we believe a Skylake MOBO would work with a Skylake-E type CPU? Because as I'm understanding, an X99 is for an enthusiast build but we're still probably a year away from having Skylake class Enthusiast mobos and cpus, right? So even if Skylake comes out in a month, an X99 with a 5820k would smoke it, right? We won't see Skylake CPU's comparable to a 5820k for probably a year, right? Right now my plan is to pick the 5820k and run that permantly until prices come on an amazing Skylake or Cannonlake mobo/cpu combo... sound like good logic?

 

[synphul]

It depends what you're doing with it. If purely gaming, it may not 'smoke' the current 4790k or skylake counterpart. If doing lots of heavy video encoding, it may perform better yes. There's no clear cut answer but 'moar' doesn't always mean better while it does guarantee to be more expensive.

For instance even in video encoding, in this adobe premiere pro cc test converting video to h.264 bluray around 2.5min long - the locked core i7 4790 quad encoded it faster than a 5960x. A locked core i5 4690 encoded it faster than a previous 4820k sandy-e.
http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/cpu-charts-2015/-31-Adobe-Premiere-Pro-CC,3722.html

Rendering 3 streams into one in after effects, the 5960x came out on top around 50% faster than the 4790k at over 3x the price. However the 4790k did it almost as fast as the 6c/12t 3960x.
http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/cpu-charts-2015/-30-Adobe-After-Effects-CC,3721.html

It's just showing that sometimes a previous generation enthusiast 6c/12t chip doesn't always mean it will 'smoke' newer architecture with only 4c/8t. If the extra cores and threading are truly needed and will be put to good use, it's a good way to go. Otherwise it's sinking extra cash into a system that isn't guaranteed to 'smoke' anything newer after a couple years. In all likelihood, after a few years have passed the 5820k/x99 will be equaled by newer mainstream desktop (z97 type) platforms.

Hard to tell how well the x99 will do with games and full dx12 support due to more cores/threading until they actually exist and begin doing so. At the moment, the only reason for x99 gaming is for 4k setups where someone may be running multiple monitors and needs triple/quad sli. Otherwise the 4790k is gaming in par with the 5820k and 5930k.

 

[Mugglensu1984]

I remember when I was shopping for a new build and I was in a similar dilemma stuck between two builds with a Core2Duo and Core2Quad processors. Then the argument was the same: Do I go with a higher clocked Core2Duo or, do I go for a slightly slower Core2Quad?

I went with the Core2Duo build and it was fine and dandy for the first 2 years. But when games started utilising 2+ cores, my Core2Duo processor just couldn't cut it and I was left feeling a bit sour that I hadn't gone for the Core2Quad processor which was out of market by then.

Bottom line is that I won't make the same mistake twice ever again. If I was to choose between the 4790K & 5820K, I would always choose the 6-Core processor. This is my experience talking, btw.