Recommendation for new system for CAD/CAM (Esprit Cad to Cam)

[craziepanda]

Hi,
I am going to build a PC for another person that is going to use it mostly for CAD/CAM purposes (budgeted at $1500) with Esprit CAD to CAM as the highest priority software. The person doesn't know whether that software is CPU or GPU bias. This leaves me with couple concerns:
1. I've been searching to see whether the software is more CPU or GPU intensive to no avail. Only found things related to AutoCad, SolidWorks, etc. So at the moment I am deciding between i5-4690k vs i7-4790k. If it's not CPU intensive I'll probably settle with i5.
2. If it's not CPU but is GPU intensive, which GPU is best for this case given the budget? I don't have any knowledge of Quadro or FirePro (plus mixed responses from other software about the benefit of pro GPU over gaming GPU within the same cost tier) so my bias to this was either a GTX 970 or R9 390 (if the 8GB memory matters).

Other than that the rest of the components are standard: Overclockable MOBO, 256GB SSD, 1TB HDD, 750-850W PSU, 16GB DDR3 RAM, DVD burner, and squeezing in 2 1080p monitors if possible.
Any help regarding the two concerns would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

 

[bambiboom]

Hi,
I am going to build a PC for another person that is going to use it mostly for CAD/CAM purposes (budgeted at $1500) with Esprit CAD to CAM as the highest priority software. The person doesn't know whether that software is CPU or GPU bias. This leaves me with couple concerns:
1. I've been searching to see whether the software is more CPU or GPU intensive to no avail. Only found things related to AutoCad, SolidWorks, etc. So at the moment I am deciding between i5-4690k vs i7-4790k. If it's not CPU intensive I'll probably settle with i5.
2. If it's not CPU but is GPU intensive, which GPU is best for this case given the budget? I don't have any knowledge of Quadro or FirePro (plus mixed responses from other software about the benefit of pro GPU over gaming GPU within the same cost tier) so my bias to this was either a GTX 970 or R9 390 (if the 8GB memory matters).

Other than that the rest of the components are standard: Overclockable MOBO, 256GB SSD, 1TB HDD, 750-850W PSU, 16GB DDR3 RAM, DVD burner, and squeezing in 2 1080p monitors if possible.
Any help regarding the two concerns would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

craziepanda,

The world of CAD /CAM of course has a lot of levels, and Esprit is a quite sophisticated multi-axial turning and milling control software. This is calculation intensive as there needs to be continuous and rapid understanding of the tool position an orientation relative to the reference plus the machining sequence.

The few CAD /CAM users I know typically use proprietary workstations- both desktop and mobile and these are often obsolete architectural /engineering systems as the function fro CAD is in effect the input side to the CAM output. I've seen frighteningly casual approaches that still work - recently a Dell Precision T3400 with the side cover off and full of dust running a router /milling - and on XP, but the commonality is that they are almost always Xeon > ECC > Quadro workstations. The CAD on that system is Corel Draw !, which can save as *.STL files that are then interpreted and sequenced by the Router /milling control software. Still it works and this system cut out gears and parts to make a wooden clock. These worked and were within the tolerance, but, there must have some lag in the control as the gears had a tiny non-concentricity and were not extremely round. That may have been a tolerance in the router/ milling machine, not the computer.

Esprit has been multi -threaded for several years, so a good balance of cores and speed with a lot of RAM and strong disk system would be best. the best balance of cores and speed to cost may be the Xeon E5-1650 v2 , which is 6-core @ 3.5 / 3.9GHz. As this was nearly $600 new, a new system uisng it or the current v3 version would need about $2,000. The alternative though would be to consider a used system:

Dell Precision T3610 E5-1650 V2 Six Core 3.9GHz 8GB 1TB HD Win 7 Pro 64 > Sold for $1,117 (June 2015)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dell-Precision-T3610-E5-1650-V2-Six-Core-3-9GHz-8GB-1TB-HD-Win-7-Pro-64-/191584285972?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c9b503514&nma=true&si=ovu8J6V6mOPhJm23kVk6PGPIPvE%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

The GPU in that one is a Quadro NVS- strictly 2D, and it would need an SSD and more RAM, but it;s possible that something quite good could done near the budget.

Or the HP z420:

HP Z420 Workstation E5-1650 v2 3.5GHz 8GB RAM 500GB HDD K600 Win7 Pro G3E87US > sold for $1,200

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-Z420-Workstation-E5-1650-v2-3-5GHz-8GB-RAM-500GB-HDD-K600-Win7-Pro-G3E87US-/301696156440?hash=item463e7e0318

Again, the K600 is not brilliant, and the RAM and disk need improvement but the performance and reliability of these systems is excellent.

I've had three used Dell Precisions and two used HP z420's and these are remarkably reliable- never a failure even with days of continuous running including full- speed rendering- and that's what they were made to do.

If a new system is essential, very good results can be had using Xeon E3, with the limitation of 4-cores. Here's an earlier for a visualization system that would also suit CAD /CAM:

BambiBoom Cadcamarific WalletJoyScream Turbosignature 85000 $$©& £?™_1.24.15 / 9.1.15

CPU: Intel Xeon E3-1241 v3 Haswell 3.5 / 3.9GHz 8MB L3 Cache LGA 1150 80W Server Processor >$263 (Xeon E3 is hyperthreading)

http://ark.intel.com/products/80909/Intel-Xeon-Processo...
http://www.superbiiz.com/query.php?s=Intel+Xeon+E3-1241...

CPU Cooler: Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO - CPU Cooler with 120 mm PWM Fan > $40

Motherboard: Supermicro X10SAE-O LGA1150/ Intel C226/ DDR3/ SATA3&USB3.0/ A&2GbE/ ATX Server Motherboard > $200

http://www.superbiiz.com/detail.php?name=MB-X10SAE#

Memory: 16GB (2) Samsung DDR3-1600 8GB/1Gx72 ECC CL11 Server Memory > $180 ($90 ea)

http://www.superbiiz.com/detail.php?name=D38GRE160S

GPU: PNY Quadro K1200 VCQK1200DP-PB 4GB 128-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 2.0 x16 6.3" x 2.7", Single Slot Workstation Video Card for DisplayPort > $300

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814133587&cm_re=quadro_k1200-_-14-133-587-_-Product

PSU: SeaSonic S12G S12G-550 550W ATX12V / EPS12V 80 PLUS GOLD Certified Active PFC Power Supply > $76.

SAMSUNG 850 EVO MZ-75E250B/AM 2.5" 250GB SATA III 3-D Vertical Internal Solid State Drive (SSD) > $110 (Newegg)

WD BLACK SERIES WD1003FZEX 1TB 7200 RPM 64MB Cache SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive > $71 (Newegg)

Optical Drive: Samsung SH-224DB/BEBE 24X SATA DVD±RW Internal Drive w/o Software (Black) > $18

Case: LIAN LI PC-9NB Black Aluminum ATX Mid Tower Computer Case > $100

Operating System: Microsoft Windows 7 Professional SP1 64-bit - OEM > $138
___________________________________________________________________
TOTAL = $1497.

And the recent Quadro K1200 is an excellent GPU- near K2200 performance but less expensive, having somewhat fewer CUDA cores and 4- Displayport only- no DVI.

So, there are a couple of alternatives.

Cheers,

BambiBoom

1. HP z420 (2015) > Xeon E5-1660 v2 six-core @ 3.7 / 4.0GHz > 32GB DDR3 ECC 1866 RAM > Quadro K4200 (4GB) > Intel 730 480GB (9SSDSC2BP480G4R5) > Western Digital Black WD1003FZEX 1TB> M-Audio 192 sound card > 600W PSU> Logitech z2300 > Linksys AE3000 USB WiFi > 2X Dell Ultrasharp U2715H (2560 X 1440) > Windows 7 Professional 64 >
[ Passmark Rating = 5064 > CPU= 13989 / 2D= 819 / 3D= 4596 / Mem= 2772 / Disk= 4555] [Cinebench R15 > CPU = 1014 OpenGL= 126.59 FPS] 7.8.15

Pending upgrade: HP /LSI 9212-4i PCIe SAS /SATA HBA RAID controller, 2X Seagate Constellation ES.3 1TB (RAID 1)

2. Dell Precision T5500 (2011) > Xeon X5680 six -core @ 3.33 / 3.6GHz, 24GB DDR3 ECC 1333 > Quadro K2200 (4GB ) > Samsung 840 250GB / WD RE4 Enterprise 1TB > M-Audio 192 sound card > Linksys WMP600N PCI WiFi > 875W PSU > Windows 7 Professional 64> HP 2711x (1920 X 1080)
[ Passmark system rating = 3490 / CPU = 9178 / 2D= 685 / 3D= 3566 / Mem= 1865 / Disk= 2122] [Cinebench 15 > CPU = 772 OpenGL= 99.72 FPS] 7.8.15

 

[craziepanda]

Thank you for the detailed post.
What I gathered is basically from the CPU side of thing, ECC is the reason to go with Xeon over i5/i7? Otherwise I think an i7 6-cores should be a cheaper alternative to Xeon 6-cores?
As for GPU, there doesn't seems to be much backing to the benefit of Quadro over GTX/R9 in the case of Esprit? I've read posts of Quadro drivers being optimized for CAD/CAM but I'm just curious if it's that much of a difference to go with the Quadro K1200 4GB over something like R9 290X 8GB.

 

[bambiboom]

Thank you for the detailed post.
What I gathered is basically from the CPU side of thing, ECC is the reason to go with Xeon over i5/i7? Otherwise I think an i7 6-cores should be a cheaper alternative to Xeon 6-cores?
As for GPU, there doesn't seems to be much backing to the benefit of Quadro over GTX/R9 in the case of Esprit? I've read posts of Quadro drivers being optimized for CAD/CAM but I'm just curious if it's that much of a difference to go with the Quadro K1200 4GB over something like R9 290X 8GB.

craziepanda,

I'm a relatively casual observer to CAD /CAM, but I have casual observed some quite sophisticated multi-tool, multi-axial machining and wire EDM systems with .0001 ! accuracy (space technologies) and have some experience with Solidworks which has CAD /CAM and for example, sheet metal plug ins. I've been around quite a lot of laser cutting too.

As for CPU's, there a re often i7 / Xeon E5 equivalents- the E5-1650 v3 is the cousin of the i7-5930K:

http://www.memory4less.com/m4l_itemdetail.aspx?itemid=1449447151&partno=VCQUADRO-CX-PB&rid=90&origin=pla&gclid=CIDU-tDo1scCFSgGwwodqaoM5g

http://ark.intel.com/products/82765/Intel-Xeon-Processor-E5-1650-v3-15M-Cache-3_50-GHz?q=E5-1650%20v3

_ and the Xeon may be a few $ less than the i7. Sometimes Xeons are a bit less as the i7's have Integrated Graphics- surprisingly good integrated graphics too.

The GPU and ECC situation has no obvious clarity, but over time Ive devloped definite inclinations towards Xeon > ECC > Quadro- but this is from the design / drating perspective. some of the situation depends on the nature of the work and the degrees of accuracy required in the work, but I would mention again, the experience with the clock gears and the diagnosis that it was micro-positional inaccuracies- lag in stepping motor response and flexibility in the milling head guide rails.

Gears of course are very revealing of inaccuracy, but my attitude towards CAD /CAM has become in general to err on the side of extreme accuracy, because the realization seems to trail the CAD models. This happened at the model stage too when I used a GTX 285 to try a preliminary model of an aerospace device- a sketch really- and I needed to snap to a particular point on a torus. The aliasing of the GTX was creating so many wide-spaced polygon end points I could not locate the center line of the intersecting structure within 2cm. Not a problem at that stage, but I quickly bought a Quadro FX 4800 for which Soldiworks had a special "partnered driver for the FX 4800 (there was even a special model of the FX 4800 Quadro called the "CX" *** for Solidworks)-that ran x128 AA - instead of the GTX x16 AA and it worked perfectly. Beautiful smooth renderings too.

***[ http://www.memory4less.com/m4l_itemdetail.aspx?itemid=1449447151&partno=VCQUADRO-CX-PB&rid=90&origin=pla&gclid=CIDU-tDo1scCFSgGwwodqaoM5g ]

If your friend is using CAD /CAM for kitchen cabinets where there is a lot of on-site fitting anyway, I'd say the system could be more casual, but again I'd prefer to have the extreme accuracy and dial it back than not to have it available. My sense though is that if your friend is using Esprit, he or she is serious.

As I not an expert, I'd recommend a site of experts who are also friendly and helpful. It's called Sawmill Creek Woodworking and I think there are a lot of CAD /CAM sign -makers, but they know their stuff and could give you the benefit of practical experience. There are also some very skilled machinists on that site. See:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/forumdisplay.php?38-CNC-Machines&s=80af714b723cb99bcf06f95e28975e76

-and I think one of the founders of the site is a CAD / CAM sign maker in Virginia, US.

What kind of projects is your friend /client doing?

Cheers,

BambiBoom

 

[craziepanda]

His work is making parts & tools for hospital use. But this system is mainly for personal experience purposes. His work happens to be using Esprit and so that is the prioritized software for this system.
I suppose I need to ask him to see how much this system is going to be used directly toward his work before going on with a workstation approach or more casual.