Discussion PSU recommendations and power supply discussion thread - Tom's hardware

[Karadjgne]

The wattage ratings are clearly defined. Printed visibly on the packaging, the unit, everywhere. If you are fool enough to try push a unit beyond its stated capacity, you should be fool enough to deal with the consequences.

Everyone has seen psus break, blow, burn out long before hitting rated/claimed loads, so shame on those vendors/manufacturers for misrepresentation, but if Seasonic claims a certain wattage on a unit and you exceed that wattage before it breaks/blows/burns up or goes out of spec then that's shame on you. Not them.

Every psu made has the potential to go out of spec when overloaded, it's just a matter of at what point that happens, and if there's circuitry in place to circumvent/prevent that point from arriving.

A Focus 550w claims 550w as it's limits, it's foolish on anybody to expect more. If you wanted more, there's a 650w unit.

 

[Mezoxin]

same can be said about how psu manufacturers now target insane ripple measurements of 10-20mv and adding capacitors to cables so their units get better benchmarks in reviews although neither your equipment or you is going to benefit from such low ripple values and the only sensible effect of those capacitor is that they make the cables worse in cable management .

yes the focus plus overload ripple was blown out of proportion by a lot of people , but still it was an engineering failure from seasonic and they have addressed it and released a new model , but if i ever was asked which would you recommend at this price point the old focus plus or the Rmx , i would have to say the RMx

 

[Darkbreeze]

If you buy a car and install a NOS kit so that it can go 180mph but the steering, suspension system and tires were only designed to handle 140mph, and you wreck it doing 175mph, that's YOUR fault, not the fault of the vehicle or the design.

Same thing. If you overload your power supply because you are running a Vega 64 that can pull more than 650w and trigger protections, on a 550w power supply, then it's your own fault. Use hardware that is capable of supporting the other hardware you have and you won't have a problem. Use a 550w power supply on something that requires 650w or more, and out of spec ripple might be the least of your concerns.

 

[Mezoxin]

If you buy a car and install a NOS kit so that it can go 180mph but the steering, suspension system and tires were only designed to handle 140mph, and you wreck it doing 175mph, that's YOUR fault, not the fault of the vehicle or the design.

so if a car has a speed limiter and it didn’t work wouldn’t the manufacturer be held accountable ?
if an airbag malfunctions and doesn’t open in an accident (which most motor vehicle accidents are due to user error) that doesn’t make the car manufacturer liable ?
protection systems are required to work to mitigate user error , it has become a foreseeable risk that the manufacture is required by best practice to put mitigation measures against such scenarios , I am for not blowing this specific Seasonic incident out of proportion but I also Can’t condone such an error in failure to implement a protection feature that their contemporaries implement properly

yes we are spoiled by fancy protections that are more than what we need in today’s psu the same way cars are much safer than how they were in the past , but we shouldn’t just turn a blind eye when a manufacturer fails to implement a protection feature properly

 

[4745454b]

And that's on me for doing so. Not the car manufacturer. It also doesn't make the car/PSU worse than another model. If the ripple was in spec as it's being used as intended then it's fine. It's why a PSU should be tested at 40 or 50C. It's why a PSU should be tested with a mostly 12V load. I don't care if it's out of spec with a huge 3.3 and 5V load. No body runs that anymore. I ignore that test result.

Edit: If air bags don't deploy at speeds over 100MPH that's the manufacturers fault. If protections on the PSU don't ever kick in then it's a problem with the manufacturer. But it still needs to be used in a way that the manufacturer intends. That's why I've told people to never use adapters to force something they didn't want. It's not ok to use a molex to PCIe 8pin adapter to force a PSU to use your video card. They didn't want that to happen for X reason. (probably because they know they are lying about the output ability.) You still need to use the car/PSU in the manor in which it was intended.

 

[Karadjgne]

If a car had a high speed limiter (mine does, 130mph because the stock tires are 130mph H rated) and I exceeded that speed because the limiter failed and the tires blew and I wrecked and killed myself, can't really blame the car for failing, can only blame me for pushing a car and its tires well beyond the limits of sane driving.

If I was doing 120mph and a tire failed, sure, blame tire

 

[Mezoxin]

all I am saying is when all reputable psu’s operate within spec until opp kicks in then it has became the norm for the industry , yes it protects against a very low probability scenario of user error , but by best practice it becomes something to be expected , and that’s why Seasonic themselves addressed the issue and released a new version that fixes this problem , and that is to be expected as technology is moving forward and not regressing

 

[Darkbreeze]

Sure, it working that way IS desirable, but I wouldn't avoid an otherwise exceptional unit just because it might potentially have a higher ripple level if I run it under loads that it should never be run at. Most people who are responsible with their hardware will be running a PSU that is several hundred watts, at least, higher than anything they'll actually use anyhow, so it will never be an issue.

Anybody NOT being responsible with their hardware and run underpowered, pretty well deserves what they get for being cheapskates.

 

[Mezoxin]

but sadly and with how modern gpu's work it has became a standard practice to accommodate for safe overload more than it was in the past , the operating envelope for modern gpu's has changed significantly recently , as the difference between peak power consumption and transient spikes has became exponential , something like the vega 64 although has a maximum peak of 330w according to cybenetics , it has transient spike in current for a duration of 14ms that reach 50-60A (seasonic published this a while back on their Chinese website) , so while you may see people recommending a 650w psu for a vega64 that will only be a valid recommendation if the PSU is able to provide overload power within spec and the need for proper OPP configuration is needed more accordingly , That is why Aris stresses the importance of a well configured OPP in his reviews and he is a subject matter expert that knows the difference between credible and non-credible scenarios

 

[Rogue Leader]

but sadly and with how modern gpu's work it has became a standard practice to accommodate for safe overload more than it was in the past , the operating envelope for modern gpu's has changed significantly recently , as the difference between peak power consumption and transient spikes has became exponential , something like the vega 64 although has a maximum peak of 330w according to cybenetics , it has transient spike in current for a duration of 14ms that reach 50-60A (seasonic published this a while back on their Chinese website) , so while you may see people recommending a 650w psu for a vega64 that will only be a valid recommendation if the PSU is able to provide overload power within spec and the need for proper OPP configuration is needed more accordingly , That is why Aris stresses the importance of a well configured OPP in his reviews and he is a subject matter expert that knows the difference between credible and non-credible scenarios

As someone who used a Seasonic Prime Titanium 650W with a Vega 64 LC I can tell you it was a poor decision. The Vega managed to hit OCP on that thing in certain games shutting everything down. Monitoring power draw from the wall it was around 730w meaning the PSU was providing over 650 at times. I sold it and swapped for a 750 and its worked well ever since.

 

[Mezoxin]

As someone who used a Seasonic Prime Titanium 650W with a Vega 64 LC I can tell you it was a poor decision. The Vega managed to hit OCP on that thing in certain games shutting everything down. Monitoring power draw from the wall it was around 730w meaning the PSU was providing over 650 at times. I sold it and swapped for a 750 and its worked well ever since.

yes that gpu had a very odd power draw behavior and what has caused seasonic to say in a statement that it launched a cooperation with gpu manufacturers to have a better understanding on the power draws of current and upcoming GPU's ,
However that psu has no OCP at the 12v rail and that is usual with single rail PSU's that they only have OCP for the minor rails , what triggered in your case was the OPP which is set at 142.3% meaning at very short transient spikes that cant be measured by your wall adapter you must have hit over 900w you must have a very power hungry cpu with that gpu though if that was the case

 

[Mezoxin]

@Rogue Leader so you see your current 750w is actually overloading in transient spikes with your current system , and the psu is actually designed to overload for short durations that is why it has OPP set at 140% and its part of its normal operation , if the manufacturer had no intention to overload the PSU he would have set the OPP at 100% of nominal

 

[Rogue Leader]

yes that gpu had a very odd power draw behavior and what has caused seasonic to say in a statement that it launched a cooperation with gpu manufacturers to have a better understanding on the power draws of current and upcoming GPU's ,
However that psu has no OCP at the 12v rail and that is usual with single rail PSU's that they only have OCP for the minor rails , what triggered in your case was the OPP which is set at 142.3% meaning at very short transient spikes that cant be measured by your wall adapter you must have hit over 900w you must have a very power hungry cpu with that gpu though if that was the case

Are you sure you're talking about the Prime Titanium and not the Focus which was the one with issues?

I'm sorry none of this can be correct. First can you please cite where you know that OCP does not cover the 12v rail in this PSU? Secondly there is no way in the world it was pulling down 900w from the wall on a spike. My power draw was being monitored via my UPS system, the spike was 730w it was not continuous. Continuous wall power draw was in the 600-650w range. a 900w spike would have tripped the UPS power protections which it did not.

The specs are in my signature under "Gaming PC"

so you see your current 750w is actually overloading in transient spikes with your current system , and the psu is actually designed to overload for short durations that is why it has OPP set at 140% and its part of its normal operation , if the manufacturer had no intention to overload the PSU he would have set the OPP at 100% of nominal

I realize this, a good PSU can handle these things, a poor one not so much. In reality using the 750 PSU I've seen lower wall draw spikes than the 650 due to its efficiency most likely.

 

[Mezoxin]

@Rogue Leader
check out Aris's review
https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/seasonic-prime-titanium-650w-psu,4690-6.html
the 650w and 750w dont have 12V ocp , the 1000w does though
and there is no need for 12V OCP in single rail PSU the most likely benefit that it would be a redundant protection feature to OPP , since its setpoint would be almost the same as OPP
you can also check Aris definition of ocp and OPP here
https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/how-we-test-psu,4042-11.html
"

• Over Current Protection (OCP): The single +12V rail PSUs usually don’t have OCP on this rail, but they should have OCP on the minor rails, including 5VSB.
• Over Power Protection (OPP): Unfortunately most PSUs have the OPP triggering point set significantly higher than their nominal max power output. This is mostly done to deal with load spikes, which could trigger OPP and shut-down the system, however OPP is there for a reason and it has to be properly configured in order to serve its purpose."

if you check your protections in the review you will see that the only trigger for your psu shutdown would be OPP which is set at 142% , yes their is OTP but that almost never triggers even in overload as long as you have normal ambient temp and your passive and active cooling isn't compromised

 

[Mezoxin]

My power draw was being monitored via my UPS system, the spike was 730w it was not continuous. Continuous wall power draw was in the 600-650w range. a 900w spike would have tripped the UPS power protections which it did not.

you need a faster meter to see those spikes. and they are not common

check out this statement by seasonic that they released when the issue with the vega 64 arised its translated from chinese

''AMD's Vega 56/64 graphics card has a very high transient power consumption. The oscilloscope screenshot below shows the transient current when using the two Vega 56 CrossFire for FurMark test, up to 102A / 10ms, which means the power supply must withstand 1200W peak wattage. Even a single Vega 56 graphics card may have nearly 600W of transient power consumption.

In this case, from the security point of view, in order to protect other parts of the computer including the graphics card, the overcurrent protection threshold and trigger time of some FOCUS PLUS power supplies are set relatively sensitive. After the power supply taking protective measures, the computer may restart or shutdown.
AMD officially recommends 650W/750W power supply for Vega 56/64. Basically, only users who use FOCUS PLUS 550 can possibly encounter such power overload problems. If the user's power supply is purchased before January 2018 (according to the serial number on the power sticker), please contact Seasonic Customer Service for after-sales service.
A power supply sold after January 2018 has the updated sensitivity preset of overcurrent protection, so users can use it with confidence.
If you are using a high-power water-cooled Vega graphics card or other high-end graphics cards, please purchase power supplies with higher power ratings to ensure that the computer works properly.
In rare cases, using FOCUS PLUS and ASUS GTX970 STRIX graphics cards may result in continual black screens, which is currently only present when paired with the ASUS GTX970 STRIX model. Using the PCIe power cable without capacitors can solve the problem. If the user encounters such problems, he can contact customer service to obtain a PCIe power cables.
We have been cooperating with major graphics card manufacturers to solve the problems caused by the increasing power consumption of graphics cards.''

 

[Vic 40]

Not to be found in the US but seems good quality for good price and is available in the UK for instance,
RIOTORO ENIGMA G2 850 W 80+ Gold Certified Fully Modular ATX Power Supply (PR-GP0850-FMG2-UK) - PCPartPicker

a review,
Riotoro Enigma 850W G2 Power Supply Review | KitGuru

Guess it is one of the niche models you talk about. Anyway for people who want to look at UK builds a decent option.

 

[Mezoxin]

Not to be found in the US but seems good quality for good price and is available in the UK for instance,
RIOTORO ENIGMA G2 850 W 80+ Gold Certified Fully Modular ATX Power Supply (PR-GP0850-FMG2-UK) - PCPartPicker

a review,
Riotoro Enigma 850W G2 Power Supply Review | KitGuru

Guess it is one of the niche models you talk about. Anyway for people who want to look at UK builds a decent option.

the review is a bit lacking as it made no mentions of available protections other than that it tripped at 40% overload , also the website itself does not mention anything about available protections , yes its a rebranded seasonic and should have all necessary protections , but i have seen some rebrands that has some protections removed ( not from seasonic though)

 

[Vic 40]

Not even at jonnyguru do they test protections,yet we take those reviews for serious enough.

Can't say much about them ,but since it comes from a high end platform do i think similar protections would be implemented. Did figure this was gonna be mentioned,but maybe they can get one for here at Tom's to review.

 

[Mezoxin]

Not even at jonnyguru do they test protections,yet we take those reviews for serious enough.

Can't say much about them ,but since it comes from a high end platform do i think similar protections would be implemented. Did figure this was gonna be mentioned,but maybe they can get one for here at Tom's to review.

only Aris properly tests protections , i have seen gigabyte removing protections from rebranded cwt gps platforms before , but what is strange is that the manufacturer himself doesn't mention anything about protection in his product page and doesn't even have a manual to download

 

[Karadjgne]

It's a public thing. There are relatively few whom really care about protective circuitry settings, most are ignorant of such things. You constantly see things like ppl buying 700w psus to power gtx1060's, so OPP, OCP etc very rarely could ever apply.

It'd be nice to have a perfect psu, but those that come close are priced so far out of range compared to even slightly lesser versions, it's just sad. Very minor differences realistically between a RMx and AXi, so why spend that much more.

Then there's salesmen whom get a $30 650w psu, push it for $70, a $40 profit vs a $90 650w psu that they'll sell for $110. A $20 profit and a lot more work to convince John Q Public to part with the extra $40, for just a $20 profit.

So a decent (ish) psu is going to have much more widespread sales vrs an obviously better psu, just based on price/profit.

Very few have an actual need for anything resembling a perfect psu, with perfect protections and perfect outputs, for most 'good enough' is simply good enough.

 

[Rogue Leader]

AMD's Vega 56/64 graphics card has a very high transient power consumption. The oscilloscope screenshot below shows the transient current when using the two Vega 56 CrossFire for FurMark test, up to 102A / 10ms, which means the power supply must withstand 1200W peak wattage. Even a single Vega 56 graphics card may have nearly 600W of transient power consumption.

Holy crap. Thats crazy. Thanks for the info. The more you learn on this stuff daily.

 

[Mezoxin]

It's a public thing. There are relatively few whom really care about protective circuitry settings, most are ignorant of such things. You constantly see things like ppl buying 700w psus to power gtx1060's, so OPP, OCP etc very rarely could ever apply.

but even gigabyte who are not that well established in the PSU industry , and cheap out on some protection in some models , they include the available protections in the product specifications , I haven't seen a reputable or even a mediocre seller of PSU's that doesn't include protections in the product specifications

 

[Rogue Leader]

Very few have an actual need for anything resembling a perfect psu, with perfect protections and perfect outputs, for most 'good enough' is simply good enough.

I disagree with people not having an actual need for a perfect PSU but your point stands - good enough is good enough. They do need one, but they don't know they do, and they get by by substituting the incorrect specs they think are important for the specs that are actually important. So to your example of people buying 700w PSUs (usually crap ones) to power a 350w system. Protections never matter. Its also inefficient and won't handle an overclock stably as well (despite having plenty of wattage). But a lot of these people don't even try (or do and fail and just assume its their CPU or GPU that can't do it).

If everyone purchased PSUs based on the correct wattage they needed (ignoring good and bad brands, protections, etc) a whole lot more computers would either fail or become house fires. But the reality is tons of junk PSUs are living happily long lives out there in the world and not failing because they are powering an i5 and a GTX 1060 with a "1000w" Diablotek.

 

[Mezoxin]

I would say with the pace of advancement of technologies in general , the protective and safety features are always running at a slower pace and trying to catch up , so it's never a good idea to say that i have too many protections or that they are unnecessary , specially people like us who aren't subject matter experts , because if history has taught us anything is that technology has been leaping ahead of safety in all disciplines and we learn from mishaps and incidents.

when international standards , corporate standards or subject matter experts came up with these protective feature they did not put them there unnecessarily , there knowledge makes them able to identify credible scenarios that need certain protection features this would cause them time and money so i doubt they will ever put an unnecessary protection feature , the same could be said why Aris gives priority to testing protective features on a PSU while alot of other reputable reviewer don't , its because he is an electrical engineer with 3 degrees and a PHD and decades of industry experience.

the example with how the vega cards performed in transient spikes (these readings were never available in gpu reviews because non of them had fast enough meters to detect a 10ms spike ) showed us why manufacturers have been accommodating for overload in their PSU operating envelope , they were not over engineering a psu to work at 140% nominal , there was a need for a PSU that could withstand transient spikes of high end gpu's

 

[NightHawkRMX]

Speaking pf high wattage PSUs from lesser known brands...

I kind of was sceptical of Riotoro at first since it wasn't a name i ever heard.

My friend recently got a 9900k and RTX2080 super which probably draws a fair bot of power.

After i read some pretty good reviews and saw some good deals i reccomended a Riotoro Enigma 850w gold for somewhere around 80 or 85 bucks.
The original one, not the seasonic focus based Enigma g2.

He insisted on getting an 850w and pay under $100. The only other option was a cx850m.

He has had no issues and it is a hell of a lot better than his old tt smart 600w which he was "smart" enough not to pair with his new hardware.

I think i would genuinely concider a Riotoro PSU for a new build assuming it is a well reviewed model.