replaced draw with empty library

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Hi,

I have no cards in my library. What happens with a "if you would draw
a card, instead..." replacement effect? I wouldn't draw a card because
there is no card to draw so it isn't able to replace anything (causing
me lo lose) ? Or does it just look for a draw effect to replace?

David
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

David de Kloet wrote:

> I have no cards in my library. What happens with a "if you would draw
> a card, instead..." replacement effect? I wouldn't draw a card because
> there is no card to draw so it isn't able to replace anything (causing
> me lo lose) ? Or does it just look for a draw effect to replace?

"If you would draw a card" means just that. Cards like "Words of Waste"
apply when an effect would normally cause you to draw a card. So if your
library's gone, you can activate Words of Waste to replace your draw with an
opponent's discard and keep from decking yourself.

--
Gravity: it's not just a good idea, it's the law.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

David de Kloet <dskloet@cs.vu.nl> writes:
> I have no cards in my library. What happens with a "if you would draw
> a card, instead..." replacement effect? I wouldn't draw a card because
> there is no card to draw so it isn't able to replace anything (causing
> me lo lose) ? Or does it just look for a draw effect to replace?

Replacement effects kick in just before the event would occur. So when
you're told to draw a card (by the game rules or by an effect), the
replacement effect changes what happens. Words of Worship's effect
played during your upkeep changes the beginning-of-draw-step "draw a
card" into a beginning-of-draw-step "gain 5 life". You never try to
draw a card, so it never checks to see if your library is empty.

Note that a replacement effect could replace a draw with something
else that includes a draw... Zur's Weirding comes to mind, but only
since I opened one the other day. There are most likely others.

--
Peter C.
"The best cure for insomnia is to get a lot of sleep."
-- W. C. Fields
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

David de Kloet <dskloet@cs.vu.nl> wrote:
>I have no cards in my library. What happens with a "if you would draw
>a card, instead..." replacement effect? I wouldn't draw a card because
>there is no card to draw so it isn't able to replace anything (causing
>me lo lose) ? Or does it just look for a draw effect to replace?

It replaces the attempt to draw, BEFORE you could draw at all. The
effect it replaces the draw with will occur.

If the replacement effect were not there, you WOULD try to draw a card
.... and would fail to do so. But the replacement effect says "Whoa. Instead
of drawing that card like you were about to do, do this instead". This also,
coincidentally, saves you from losing the game from the state-based effect
that punishes trying to draw from an empty library.

It just looks for a "draw a card" instruction to replace, in short; it
replaces that instruction -before- it can be acted on at all.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Peter Cooper Jr. <pete@cooper.homedns.org> wrote:
>Note that a replacement effect could replace a draw with something
>else that includes a draw... Zur's Weirding comes to mind, but only
>since I opened one the other day. There are most likely others.

Chains of Mephistopheles is the canonical one of those.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

David de Kloet <dskloet@cs.vu.nl> writes:
> On Mon, 12 Apr 2004, Peter Cooper Jr. wrote:
>> David de Kloet <dskloet@cs.vu.nl> writes:
> [snip (see subject)]
>> Zur's Weirding comes to mind, but only
>> since I opened one the other day. There are most likely others.
>
> Zur's Weirding
> {3}{U}
> Enchantment
> Players play with their hands revealed.
> If a player would draw a card, he or she reveals it instead. Then any
> other player may pay 2 life. If a player does, put that card into its
> owner's graveyard. Otherwise, that player draws the card.
>
> I'm not sure what happens. "... reveals it instead." reveal what?

Well, I'm not 100% certain myself, but I'll try to answer it and
someone will probably correct me if I'm wrong.

,----[ Magic Comprehensive Rules ]
| 103.3. If an instruction requires taking an impossible action, it's
| ignored. (In many cases the card will specify consequences for this;
| if it doesn't, there's no effect.)
`----

When you would draw and have an empty library, you replace the draw
with Zur's effect. You try to reveal the top card of your library, but
do nothing since you can't.

> Nothing is there so this just doesn't happen. But if no one pays 2
> life, do I lose for not being able to draw any card? or for not
> being able to draw that particular card which couldn't be revealed
> because it wasn't there? or is this effect ignored because there was
> no "the card" in the first place?

Any other player may pay 2 life. If a player does, you try to put that
card into its owner's graveyard. You can't, so you do nothing. If no
player pays the life, you're told to draw that card. You can't, so you
do nothing. Shortly thereafter, the next time state-based effects are
checked, the game sees that you tried to draw from an empty library,
so you lose the game.

--
Peter C.
"In a display of perverse brilliance, Carl the repairman mistakes a
room humidifier for a mid-range computer but manages to tie it into
the network anyway." -- The 5th Wave
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Mon, 12 Apr 2004, Peter Cooper Jr. wrote:

> David de Kloet <dskloet@cs.vu.nl> writes:
[snip (see subject)]
> Zur's Weirding comes to mind, but only
> since I opened one the other day. There are most likely others.
>

Zur's Weirding
{3}{U}
Enchantment
Players play with their hands revealed.
If a player would draw a card, he or she reveals it instead. Then any
other player may pay 2 life. If a player does, put that card into its
owner's graveyard. Otherwise, that player draws the card.

I'm not sure what happens. "... reveals it instead." reveal what?
Nothing is there so this just doesn't happen. But if no one pays 2
life, do I lose for not being able to draw any card? or for not being
able to draw that particular card which couldn't be revealed because
it wasn't there? or is this effect ignored because there was no "the
card" in the first place?

David
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

David de Kloet <dskloet@cs.vu.nl> wrote:
>Zur's Weirding >{3}{U} >Enchantment
>Players play with their hands revealed.
>If a player would draw a card, he or she reveals it instead. Then any
>other player may pay 2 life. If a player does, put that card into its
>owner's graveyard. Otherwise, that player draws the card.
>
>I'm not sure what happens. "... reveals it instead." reveal what?

The card that they would have drawn.

>Nothing is there so this just doesn't happen.

Oh, if the library is empty. Yes, if there's no card there to draw there's
nothing to reveal, so you don't.

>But if no one pays 2
>life, do I lose for not being able to draw any card?

Yes because you're again being told to draw from an empty library, though
as the end of a more complicated effect than just 'draw a card'.

(Note that you can't pay the 2 life yourself here.)

>or for not being
>able to draw that particular card which couldn't be revealed because
>it wasn't there? or is this effect ignored because there was no "the
>card" in the first place?

You can't reveal the card, so you don't. Then any other player may pay 2 life;
none of them choose to. Then you are told to draw a card, and you can't. At
this point ZW is done with the effect, and you continue... THEN the next time
state-based effects were checked, they see that you were told to draw a card
but could not (by whatever effect ZW modified), and cause you to lose the game.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

David de Kloet wrote:

> I'm not sure what happens.

As written, I would think Zur's Weirding merely modifies the draw step to
include the ability for another player to deny you the next card you would
draw. Other than that, everything proceeds as normal.

IOW, an empty library is a loss on your next draw without something to
replace the "draw card" effect.

--
Gravity: it's not just a good idea, it's the law.
 
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