Returning Daggers

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So one of my players has a Master Thrower.

She can throw two daggers per attack.

She gets three attacks per round.

That's 6 daggers thrown per round.

Let's say she gets 6 enchanted +1 Returning Daggers.

She throws all 6 in the first round of combat (she has quick draw, of
course).

What happens when all 6 daggers return to her? Can she hold 6 daggers
in her two hands at the same time? Will this interfere with her
throwing them the next round?

Common sense says yes, but how should I handle the situation as DM?

- Ron ^*^

 

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Werebat wrote:
> So one of my players has a Master Thrower.
>
> She can throw two daggers per attack.
>
> She gets three attacks per round.
>
> That's 6 daggers thrown per round.
>
> Let's say she gets 6 enchanted +1 Returning Daggers.
>
> She throws all 6 in the first round of combat (she has quick draw, of
> course).
>
> What happens when all 6 daggers return to her? Can she hold 6 daggers
> in her two hands at the same time? Will this interfere with her
> throwing them the next round?
>
> Common sense says yes, but how should I handle the situation as DM?

Like this: http://www.naruto-kun.com/images/weapons/Kunai.jpg

It's a _Master_ Thrower, right? No penalties needed.

Laszlo

 

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Werebat wrote:
> laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
> >
> > Werebat wrote:
> >
> >>So one of my players has a Master Thrower.
> >>
> >>She can throw two daggers per attack.
> >>
> >>She gets three attacks per round.
> >>
> >>That's 6 daggers thrown per round.
> >>
> >>Let's say she gets 6 enchanted +1 Returning Daggers.
> >>
> >>She throws all 6 in the first round of combat (she has quick draw, of
> >>course).
> >>
> >>What happens when all 6 daggers return to her? Can she hold 6 daggers
> >>in her two hands at the same time? Will this interfere with her
> >>throwing them the next round?
> >>
> >>Common sense says yes, but how should I handle the situation as DM?
> >
> >
> > Like this: http://www.naruto-kun.com/images/weapons/Kunai.jpg
>
> Those look more like flechettes/shuriken than daggers to me. Daggers
> are supposed to be 6" or so long.

They're kunai (Japanese throwing daggers). D&D doesn't distinguish
between throwing and "stabbing" daggers... unless you're contending
that throwing daggers should be classified as shuriken (which actually
might not be unreasonable), I think we can assume that a Master Thrower
would have throwing daggers.

> > It's a _Master_ Thrower, right? No penalties needed.
>
> ???

It's his schtick. Popular fantasy has people (usually bad guys, for
some reason) hold and throw multiple throwing daggers all over the
place. It's stylish, it's fun, and it looks cool. I'd run with it.

The Master Thrower PrC can be pretty abusive in the hands of a
powergamer, but if the one in your game is under control, and has paid
for the priviledge (and I'd say buying six +1 weapons is payment
aplenty), then why not? If it _isn't_ under control, then introducing a
penalty for multiple weapons held probably still isn't the right
solution.

Laszlo

 

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Werebat wrote:
> Jasin Zujovic wrote:
>
> > In article <1120983754.042046.271610@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> > laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu says...
> >
> >
> >>>So one of my players has a Master Thrower.
> >>>
> >>>She can throw two daggers per attack.
> >>>
> >>>She gets three attacks per round.
> >>>
> >>>That's 6 daggers thrown per round.
> >>>
> >>>Let's say she gets 6 enchanted +1 Returning Daggers.
> >>>
> >>>She throws all 6 in the first round of combat (she has quick draw, of
> >>>course).
> >
> >
> > I've actually been thinking of playing a character exactly like this
> > sometime...
> >
> >
> >>>What happens when all 6 daggers return to her? Can she hold 6 daggers
> >>>in her two hands at the same time? Will this interfere with her
> >>>throwing them the next round?
> >>>
> >>>Common sense says yes, but how should I handle the situation as DM?
> >>
> >>Like this: http://www.naruto-kun.com/images/weapons/Kunai.jpg
> >>
> >>It's a _Master_ Thrower, right? No penalties needed.
> >
> >
> > Those were my thoughts exactly.
> >
> > She went throught the bother to get a PrC and 6 +2-equivalent weapons in
> > order to get crazy throwing skillz. Let her have her fun.
>
> Meh.
>
> By that logic if someone goes through the bother to get a character who
> is a Hulking Hurler, they should be allowed to carry an unlimited number
> of boulders around to maximize their throwing potential.
>
> Someone said earlier that the limits to the number of daggers one can
> realistically have available on their person may have been something the
> designers had in mind when making the PrC.

I'm not a fan of the Master Thrower PrC mechanically, but I'm not
seeing this. It's way, way too subjective to be a good balancing
factor.

> Also, what about someone who ISN'T a Master Thrower? Can they too carry
> unlimited dagger ammo in their hands? If they can, that sort of nerfs
> Quick Draw, don't you think?

I'd say they should take penalties (mitigated by Sleight of Hand,
perhaps). Heck, maybe you rule that each dagger held in the hand after
the first would impose a cumulative -2 to attacks with that hand... and
this penalty would be mitigated by 2 for every 5 ranks in Sleight of
Hand.

But I'm not seeing the problem. Is the player overpowered? You didn't
say. If he isn't, then why mess with his fun? If he is, then yeah, you
need to find a solution. But I don't like taking the "cool" factor away
from players. Best to nerf the boring numerical bonuses, instead of the
flashy abilites, whenever possible.

Laszlo

 

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laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
>
> Werebat wrote:
>
>>So one of my players has a Master Thrower.
>>
>>She can throw two daggers per attack.
>>
>>She gets three attacks per round.
>>
>>That's 6 daggers thrown per round.
>>
>>Let's say she gets 6 enchanted +1 Returning Daggers.
>>
>>She throws all 6 in the first round of combat (she has quick draw, of
>>course).
>>
>>What happens when all 6 daggers return to her? Can she hold 6 daggers
>>in her two hands at the same time? Will this interfere with her
>>throwing them the next round?
>>
>>Common sense says yes, but how should I handle the situation as DM?
>
>
> Like this: http://www.naruto-kun.com/images/weapons/Kunai.jpg

Those look more like flechettes/shuriken than daggers to me. Daggers
are supposed to be 6" or so long.


> It's a _Master_ Thrower, right? No penalties needed.

???

- Ron ^*^

 

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In article <1120983754.042046.271610@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu says...

> > So one of my players has a Master Thrower.
> >
> > She can throw two daggers per attack.
> >
> > She gets three attacks per round.
> >
> > That's 6 daggers thrown per round.
> >
> > Let's say she gets 6 enchanted +1 Returning Daggers.
> >
> > She throws all 6 in the first round of combat (she has quick draw, of
> > course).

I've actually been thinking of playing a character exactly like this
sometime...

> > What happens when all 6 daggers return to her? Can she hold 6 daggers
> > in her two hands at the same time? Will this interfere with her
> > throwing them the next round?
> >
> > Common sense says yes, but how should I handle the situation as DM?
>
> Like this: http://www.naruto-kun.com/images/weapons/Kunai.jpg
>
> It's a _Master_ Thrower, right? No penalties needed.

Those were my thoughts exactly.

She went throught the bother to get a PrC and 6 +2-equivalent weapons in
order to get crazy throwing skillz. Let her have her fun.


--
Jasin Zujovic
jzujovic@inet.hr

 

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Jasin Zujovic wrote:

> In article <1120983754.042046.271610@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu says...
>
>
>>>So one of my players has a Master Thrower.
>>>
>>>She can throw two daggers per attack.
>>>
>>>She gets three attacks per round.
>>>
>>>That's 6 daggers thrown per round.
>>>
>>>Let's say she gets 6 enchanted +1 Returning Daggers.
>>>
>>>She throws all 6 in the first round of combat (she has quick draw, of
>>>course).
>
>
> I've actually been thinking of playing a character exactly like this
> sometime...
>
>
>>>What happens when all 6 daggers return to her? Can she hold 6 daggers
>>>in her two hands at the same time? Will this interfere with her
>>>throwing them the next round?
>>>
>>>Common sense says yes, but how should I handle the situation as DM?
>>
>>Like this: http://www.naruto-kun.com/images/weapons/Kunai.jpg
>>
>>It's a _Master_ Thrower, right? No penalties needed.
>
>
> Those were my thoughts exactly.
>
> She went throught the bother to get a PrC and 6 +2-equivalent weapons in
> order to get crazy throwing skillz. Let her have her fun.

Meh.

By that logic if someone goes through the bother to get a character who
is a Hulking Hurler, they should be allowed to carry an unlimited number
of boulders around to maximize their throwing potential.

Someone said earlier that the limits to the number of daggers one can
realistically have available on their person may have been something the
designers had in mind when making the PrC.

Also, what about someone who ISN'T a Master Thrower? Can they too carry
unlimited dagger ammo in their hands? If they can, that sort of nerfs
Quick Draw, don't you think?

- Ron ^*^

 

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Werebat wrote:
>
> What happens when all 6 daggers return to her? Can she hold 6 daggers
> in her two hands at the same time? Will this interfere with her
> throwing them the next round?

Maybe, maybe not. But it doesn't really come into play because she
doesn't need to hold six daggers in two hands. The answer as to why is
mentioned earlier in your post:

>
> She throws all 6 in the first round of combat (she has quick draw, of
> course).

With quick draw, she doesn't ever need to hold more than two daggers in
one hand (for that doublethrow ability). The daggers are in their
sheaths until she throws them. Liekwise when they come back - quick
draw allows you to not only draw but also put away weapons with
blinding speed (IIRC, I know it's that way in *some* d20 product) so as
soon as she catches the daggers she sheathes them, leaving her hand(s)
open for the next to return.

 

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snikers000@hotmail.com wrote:
> Werebat wrote:
> >
> > What happens when all 6 daggers return to her? Can she hold 6 daggers
> > in her two hands at the same time? Will this interfere with her
> > throwing them the next round?
>
> Maybe, maybe not. But it doesn't really come into play because she
> doesn't need to hold six daggers in two hands. The answer as to why is
> mentioned earlier in your post:
>
> >
> > She throws all 6 in the first round of combat (she has quick draw, of
> > course).
>
> With quick draw, she doesn't ever need to hold more than two daggers in
> one hand (for that doublethrow ability). The daggers are in their
> sheaths until she throws them. Liekwise when they come back - quick
> draw allows you to not only draw but also put away weapons with
> blinding speed (IIRC, I know it's that way in *some* d20 product) so as
> soon as she catches the daggers she sheathes them, leaving her hand(s)
> open for the next to return.

I don't think you'd even need to quickly sheathe them - or sheathe them
at all. Although abtracted into one action, you're really making three
attacks, right? Think of it as juggling six daggers with a partner.
She throws two daggers. While they're on the way to the target, she
quick-draws and throws two more. Then, while the first two are on the
way there, and the other two on their way back, she throws the third
pair. So, at any given time, she's got two daggers in hand, two in (or
near) the target, and two more flying through the air on the way back
to her.

Cool effect - from the enemies point of view a continual fountain of
daggers coming at you, and she never needs to hold all six at once
until the end of combat, at which point she doesn't need to throw them.

-Pat

 

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snikers000@hotmail.com wrote:
> Werebat wrote:
>>
>> What happens when all 6 daggers return to her? Can she hold 6
>> daggers in her two hands at the same time? Will this interfere with
>> her throwing them the next round?
>
> Maybe, maybe not. But it doesn't really come into play because she
> doesn't need to hold six daggers in two hands. The answer as to why is
> mentioned earlier in your post:
>
>>
>> She throws all 6 in the first round of combat (she has quick draw, of
>> course).
>
> With quick draw, she doesn't ever need to hold more than two daggers
> in one hand (for that doublethrow ability). The daggers are in their
> sheaths until she throws them. Liekwise when they come back - quick
> draw allows you to not only draw but also put away weapons with
> blinding speed (IIRC, I know it's that way in *some* d20 product) so
> as soon as she catches the daggers she sheathes them, leaving her
> hand(s) open for the next to return.

Nope, quick draw in core D&D does not allow quick sheathing.

--
Mark.

 

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pluther <pluther@usa.net> wrote:
>I don't think you'd even need to quickly sheathe them - or sheathe them
>at all. Although abtracted into one action, you're really making three
>attacks, right? Think of it as juggling six daggers with a partner.
>She throws two daggers. While they're on the way to the target, she
>quick-draws and throws two more. Then, while the first two are on the
>way there, and the other two on their way back, she throws the third
>pair. So, at any given time, she's got two daggers in hand, two in (or
>near) the target, and two more flying through the air on the way back
>to her.

No, the problem is, by the description of "returning", all six of the
daggers "return home" at exactly the same time:

"It returns to the thrower just before the creature's next turn
(and is therefore ready to use again in that turn).

Catching a returning weapon when it comes back is a free action.
If the character can't catch it, or if the character has moved
since throwing it, the weapon drops to the ground in the square
from which it was thrown."

But if she doesn't have "Quick-Sheathe" (and it's not clear that
you do when you buy Quick-Draw; the description of "Sheathe Weapon"
in the Combat section is tied in with "Draw Weapon", but it's not
100% clear their speeds are actually linked), her hands will be full
after two (maybe four) of them, and the rest will drop to the ground.

Donald

 

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Werebat wrote:

<throwing, returning, palm throw, etc.>

Eww, palm throw.

> Can she hold 6 daggers in her two hands at the same time? Will this
> interfere with her throwing them the next round?
>
> Common sense says yes, but how should I handle the situation as DM?

The sage did something about this.... Can't seem to find it though.
He suggested holding some number of the various thrown weapons in the
off hand that could be readied like ammo as you used your attacks (as
changing weapons from hand to hand is generally a free action, and a
fine reason to avoid heavy sheilds).

Logically, if she can throw two daggers simultaniously from one
hand, holding another four in the off-hand seems fine (the sample
character pic is doing just that, with bells on).
If you also want to throw with the off-hand, then no deal, you can
only hold in the hand what you're attacking with.


Now, why only three attacks? Surely TWFing and Rapid Shot should
both be in use by the time you've got the money for that trick, putting
out 4 or 5 attacks per round at least. You'd need to drop back to four
returning daggers plus quickdraw then though.

--
tussock

Aspie at work, sorry in advance.

 

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In article <1121007544.474088.38540@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu says...

> But I'm not seeing the problem. Is the player overpowered? You didn't
> say. If he isn't, then why mess with his fun? If he is, then yeah, you
> need to find a solution. But I don't like taking the "cool" factor away
> from players. Best to nerf the boring numerical bonuses, instead of the
> flashy abilites, whenever possible.

This is the key point, I think.


--
Jasin Zujovic
jzujovic@inet.hr

 

[KAOS]

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On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 15:09:07 +0000 (UTC), tsang@soda.csua.berkeley.edu
(Donald Tsang) dared speak in front of ME:

>pluther <pluther@usa.net> wrote:
>>I don't think you'd even need to quickly sheathe them - or sheathe them
>>at all. Although abtracted into one action, you're really making three
>>attacks, right? Think of it as juggling six daggers with a partner.
>>She throws two daggers. While they're on the way to the target, she
>>quick-draws and throws two more. Then, while the first two are on the
>>way there, and the other two on their way back, she throws the third
>>pair. So, at any given time, she's got two daggers in hand, two in (or
>>near) the target, and two more flying through the air on the way back
>>to her.
>
>No, the problem is, by the description of "returning", all six of the
>daggers "return home" at exactly the same time:
>
> "It returns to the thrower just before the creature's next turn
> (and is therefore ready to use again in that turn).

Which is "exactly the same time" only within the context of a
fundamental-time-unit of six seconds.

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Donald Tsang wrote:
> >> "It returns to the thrower just before the creature's next turn
> >> (and is therefore ready to use again in that turn).

Poorly worded. Should have said something like,"For accounting
purposes, consider that the weapon returns to the thrower just before
the creature's next turn."

Shouldn't be read literally that it happens exactly at that point in
time (does a weapon that you throw 5' return more slowly than a weapon
you threw 60'?). The idea was to make the thrown weapon unavailable to
the user until their next turn.

 

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Werebat <ranpoirier@cox.net> wrote:
>Jasin Zujovic wrote:

>> She went throught the bother to get a PrC and 6 +2-equivalent weapons in
>> order to get crazy throwing skillz. Let her have her fun.

>Meh.

>By that logic if someone goes through the bother to get a character who
>is a Hulking Hurler, they should be allowed to carry an unlimited number
>of boulders around to maximize their throwing potential.

Not at all, actually, since boulders are a helluva lot larger
and more unwieldy than daggers.

>Someone said earlier that the limits to the number of daggers one can
>realistically have available on their person may have been something the
>designers had in mind when making the PrC.

So they were thinking, "We want these characters to be able to
throw daggers very well, but they have to run out quickly?"

>Also, what about someone who ISN'T a Master Thrower? Can they too carry
>unlimited dagger ammo in their hands? If they can, that sort of nerfs
>Quick Draw, don't you think?

When did four or six become equal to unlimited?

Pete

 

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Kaos <kaos@invalid.xplornet.com> wrote:
>>No, the problem is, by the description of "returning", all six of the
>>daggers "return home" at exactly the same time:
>>
>> "It returns to the thrower just before the creature's next turn
>> (and is therefore ready to use again in that turn).
>
>Which is "exactly the same time" only within the context of a
>fundamental-time-unit of six seconds.

Well, sure, but if it takes a move-equivalent action to sheathe a pair
of daggers, it takes too long to sheathe two pair "just before your next
turn" and then grab the last two and start another full attack sequence.
It's not even clear free actions are quick enough, since "just before
your next turn" isn't on your turn, and free actions (as opposed to
immediate actions) can only be performed on your turn..

Donald

 

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Peter Meilinger wrote:
> Werebat <ranpoirier@cox.net> wrote:

>> Someone said earlier that the limits to the number of daggers one can
>> realistically have available on their person may have been something
>> the designers had in mind when making the PrC.
>
> So they were thinking, "We want these characters to be able to
> throw daggers very well, but they have to run out quickly?"

More like "It's okay to let these characters be able to throw daggers very
well, *because* they're likely to run out quickly." Not necessarily the
case, but giving the class unlimited ammunition may be something that it
wasn't originally balanced for.

--
Mark.