Ronin Warclub/Horobi (yet another Betrayers question)

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

I have Ronin Warclub in play.

Its triggered ability (Whenever a creature comes into play under your
control, attach Ronin Warclub to that creature.) does not use the word
"target" but people tell me that it does indeed target a creature that comes
into play. How do I know wether an ability targets the creature, or does
not?

Horobi, Death's Wail (Whenever a creature becomes the target of a spell or
ability, destroy that creature.) makes it critically important for me to
know which cards target and which cards don't.

The Ronin Warclub also happens to have the ability "Equip 5". I *know* this
ability targets the creature because it says so in the rules. However, I
still don't know about the triggered ability; I couldn't find an easy answer
to that in the rules.

Scythe of the Wretched is another example of a card with an a triggered
ability that attaches it to a creature, but does not mention the word
"target" (Whenever a creature dealt damage by equipped creature this turn is
put into a graveyard, return that card to play under your control. Attach
Scythe of the Wretched to that creature).

Ronin Warclub
Artifact - Equipment
Equipped creature gets +2/+1.
Whenever a creature comes into play under your control, attach Ronin
Warclub to that creature.
Equip 🙂 Attach to target creature you control. Equip only as a sorcery.)
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 12:25:30 -0500, Giant Giant <nosp@m> wrote:
>I have Ronin Warclub in play.
>
>Its triggered ability (Whenever a creature comes into play under your
>control, attach Ronin Warclub to that creature.) does not use the word
>"target" but people tell me that it does indeed target a creature that comes
>into play. How do I know wether an ability targets the creature, or does
>not?

"People" have it exactly incorrect; this ability does not use the word
"target", so doesn't target anything. It can happily hop onto some creature
that "can't be the target of spells or abilitiesd". (It can't hop onto a
creature that 'can't be equipped', though; if one of those comes into play,
the Warclub triggers, resolves, can't move onto the creature, and stays where
it was.)

If an ability's text (for older cards you may need to use Oracle wording) has
the word "target" in it, the ability is targetted; if not, it's not. Same for
Instant or Sorcery spells, except that in addition to spells that say 'target',
local-enchantment spells are targetted. (The local enchantment, once it's in
play, is -not- targetted.) Creature, enchantment, and artifact spells are
never targetted.

>Horobi, Death's Wail (Whenever a creature becomes the target of a spell or
>ability, destroy that creature.) makes it critically important for me to
>know which cards target and which cards don't.

Understood. Fortunately, these days it's very easy to tell: if it says
"target", it's targetted. If it doesn't, and isn't a local enchantment spell
being cast (Enchant Creature, Enchant Land, etc.), it's not targetted.

>The Ronin Warclub also happens to have the ability "Equip 5". I *know* this
>ability targets the creature because it says so in the rules. However, I
>still don't know about the triggered ability; I couldn't find an easy answer
>to that in the rules.

The triggered ability does not target. Section 415.* goes over this for the
various forms of things that can be targetted.

>Scythe of the Wretched is another example of a card with an a triggered
>ability that attaches it to a creature, but does not mention the word
>"target" (Whenever a creature dealt damage by equipped creature this turn is
>put into a graveyard, return that card to play under your control. Attach
>Scythe of the Wretched to that creature).

This is also not a targetted ability. Equip, as you noted, is, but only because
its definition in the rulebook uses the word "target".

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

I don't think that the trigger ability is a targeting effect.
For one, it does not say target and two similar trigger effect
do still affect creature that cannot be targeted, like Aether Flash.

(the reason in my opinion is "whenever a creature" is not a choice
that you make, compare to choose a target.)

Carl

Giant Giant wrote:

> I have Ronin Warclub in play.
>
> Its triggered ability (Whenever a creature comes into play under your
> control, attach Ronin Warclub to that creature.) does not use the word
> "target" but people tell me that it does indeed target a creature that comes
> into play. How do I know wether an ability targets the creature, or does
> not?
>
> Horobi, Death's Wail (Whenever a creature becomes the target of a spell or
> ability, destroy that creature.) makes it critically important for me to
> know which cards target and which cards don't.
>
> The Ronin Warclub also happens to have the ability "Equip 5". I *know* this
> ability targets the creature because it says so in the rules. However, I
> still don't know about the triggered ability; I couldn't find an easy answer
> to that in the rules.
>
> Scythe of the Wretched is another example of a card with an a triggered
> ability that attaches it to a creature, but does not mention the word
> "target" (Whenever a creature dealt damage by equipped creature this turn is
> put into a graveyard, return that card to play under your control. Attach
> Scythe of the Wretched to that creature).
>
> Ronin Warclub
> Artifact - Equipment
> Equipped creature gets +2/+1.
> Whenever a creature comes into play under your control, attach Ronin
> Warclub to that creature.
> Equip 🙂 Attach to target creature you control. Equip only as a sorcery.)
>
>
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Giant Giant wrote:

> I have Ronin Warclub in play.
>
> Its triggered ability (Whenever a creature comes into play under your
> control, attach Ronin Warclub to that creature.) does not use the word
> "target" but people tell me that it does indeed target a creature that
> comes into play.

Those people are wrong.

> How do I know wether an ability targets the creature, or
> does not?

It targets the creature if it says "target creature" or if it is an
Enchant Creature spell. Period.

>
> Horobi, Death's Wail (Whenever a creature becomes the target of a spell or
> ability, destroy that creature.) makes it critically important for me to
> know which cards target and which cards don't.
>
> The Ronin Warclub also happens to have the ability "Equip 5". I *know*
> this ability targets the creature because it says so in the rules.

Correct.

> However, I still don't know about the triggered ability; I couldn't find
> an easy answer to that in the rules.

The answer is very easy. If it says target, it targets. If it doesn't,
it doesn't.
>
> Scythe of the Wretched is another example of a card with an a triggered
> ability that attaches it to a creature, but does not mention the word
> "target" (Whenever a creature dealt damage by equipped creature this turn
> is put into a graveyard, return that card to play under your control.
> Attach Scythe of the Wretched to that creature).

And the Scythe doesn't target a creature it attaches to in this manner
either.
>
> Ronin Warclub
> Artifact - Equipment
> Equipped creature gets +2/+1.
> Whenever a creature comes into play under your control, attach Ronin
> Warclub to that creature.
> Equip 🙂 Attach to target creature you control. Equip only as a
> sorcery.)

--
Christopher Mattern

"Which one you figure tracked us?"
"The ugly one, sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Chris Mattern <matternc@comcast.net> wrote:

> It targets the creature if it says "target creature" or if it is an
> Enchant Creature spell. Period.

This answer is a little too narrowly focused. Consider the Confiscate
spell.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Daniel W. Johnson wrote:

> Chris Mattern <matternc@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> It targets the creature if it says "target creature" or if it is an
>> Enchant Creature spell. Period.
>
> This answer is a little too narrowly focused. Consider the Confiscate
> spell.

OK, if it's a local Enchantment spell that can be cast on a creature.
--
Christopher Mattern

"Which one you figure tracked us?"
"The ugly one, sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

I seem to have experienced an extremely realistic hallucination in which
Chris Mattern said...
> Daniel W. Johnson wrote:
>
> > Chris Mattern <matternc@comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> >> It targets the creature if it says "target creature" or if it is an
> >> Enchant Creature spell. Period.
> >
> > This answer is a little too narrowly focused. Consider the Confiscate
> > spell.
>
> OK, if it's a local Enchantment spell that can be cast on a creature.

Or the equip ability. (Most equipment has reminder text that includes
this information, but some equipment cards don't.)
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Jeff Heikkinen wrote:

> I seem to have experienced an extremely realistic hallucination in which
> Chris Mattern said...
>> Daniel W. Johnson wrote:
>>
>> > Chris Mattern <matternc@comcast.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >> It targets the creature if it says "target creature" or if it is an
>> >> Enchant Creature spell. Period.
>> >
>> > This answer is a little too narrowly focused. Consider the Confiscate
>> > spell.
>>
>> OK, if it's a local Enchantment spell that can be cast on a creature.
>
> Or the equip ability. (Most equipment has reminder text that includes
> this information, but some equipment cards don't.)

Doesn't matter in my book; keywords are shorthand that are expanded in the
rules even if they aren't on the card, so anything that says "Equip"
says "target" IMHO.

--
Christopher Mattern

"Which one you figure tracked us?"
"The ugly one, sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On 2005-02-06, Chris Mattern <matternc@comcast.net> wrote:
> Giant Giant wrote:
>
>> I have Ronin Warclub in play.
>>
>> Its triggered ability (Whenever a creature comes into play under your
>> control, attach Ronin Warclub to that creature.) does not use the word
>> "target" but people tell me that it does indeed target a creature that
>> comes into play.
>
> Those people are wrong.


Oh, wow, so this means that if you have the warclub in play, as well as one of
the glasskites (let's say the shimmering, rules below), the the warclub *will*
equip the glasskite, won't be countered, and will not allow a single
matsu-tribe sniper to tap down the glasskite?
This is really cool, and I have the same "people" hanging about at my store.

thank you,
K

Shimmering Glasskite
{3}{U}
Creature -- Spirit
2/3
Flying
Whenever ~this~ becomes the target of a spell or ability for the first time in
a turn, counter that spell or ability.

Matsu-Tribe Sniper
{1}{G}
Creature -- Snake Warrior Archer
1/1
{T}: ~this~ deals 1 damage to target creature with flying.
Whenever ~this~ deals damage to a creature, tap that creature and it doesn't
untap during its controller's next untap step.

--
In vino veritas
http://openwine.net
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Kevin <ktneely@no.spam.astroturfgarden.com> wrote:
>On 2005-02-06, Chris Mattern <matternc@comcast.net> wrote:
>>> Its triggered ability (Whenever a creature comes into play under your
>>> control, attach Ronin Warclub to that creature.) does not use the word
>>> "target" but people tell me that it does indeed target a creature that
>>> comes into play.
>>
>> Those people are wrong.
>
>Oh, wow, so this means that if you have the warclub in play, as well as one of
>the glasskites (let's say the shimmering, rules below), the the warclub *will*
>equip the glasskite, won't be countered, and will not allow a single
>matsu-tribe sniper to tap down the glasskite?

If it's moving -itself-, it will. If you just try to Equip it, that's
targetted like any other use of the Equip ability. (But you seem to have
gotten that...) Meaning that the Warclub will attach itself happily to a
Glasskite that just came into play, but trying to get the Warclub on the
Glasskite -later- with the Equip may run afoul of the Glasskite ability.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Kevin <ktneely@no.spam.astroturfgarden.com> wrote:

> Oh, wow, so this means that if you have the warclub in play, as well as one of
> the glasskites (let's say the shimmering, rules below), the the warclub *will*
> equip the glasskite, won't be countered, and will not allow a single
> matsu-tribe sniper to tap down the glasskite?
> This is really cool, and I have the same "people" hanging about at my store.

You are exactly right. Since the Ronin Warclub doesn't use the word
"target" (and is not an Enchant Creature spell), the ability will not
trigger; it will trigger, instead, for the Sniper's ability (assuming no
other spell or ability targeted the Glasskite this turn).

- ∞
 
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