News Russia plans EUV chipmaking tools that it says will be cheaper and easier to build than ASML's — country outlines new roadmap to smaller chips

[Admin]

Russia to develop lithography systems that could compete against ASML's Twinscan NXE EUV systems.

Russia plans EUV chipmaking tools that it says will be cheaper and easier to build than ASML's — country outlines new roadmap to smaller chips : Read more

 

[Pierce2623]

Yeah I’m pretty sure if using a slightly different wavelength would improve resolution and simplify things then ASML would’ve gone that direction already.

 

[NinoPino]

Yeah I’m pretty sure if using a slightly different wavelength would improve resolution and simplify things then ASML would’ve gone that direction already.

ASML haven't any interest in doing such expensive research today, that only become profitable in ten years. This is especially true when it has a monopoly on lithography tools. Tools that not only works well, but most importantly are insanely expensive.

 

[dalek1234]

Does anyone actually believe anything that comes out of Ruzzia these days.

 

[JamesSneed]

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah Buhahahahahahahahahahahahaha

 

[Netronstarpony]

In ten years, when everyone will switch to quantum computers, russians will start making current technology chips😂

 

[rdsdmba]

A Xenon laser emits 176nm. So no, it's not using a Xenon laser.

Xenon plasma emits EUV wavelengths though and EUV light sources using xenon are not new. EG: The EUV LLC feasibility demo (Sandia, Lawrence Livermore, founded in 1997) used a xenon gas jet as fuel for its light source. The collector optic coatings were ablated in short order . . .

EUV requires a "vacuum" environment to transmit light. Xenon is a heavy gas. Its presence has significant impact on EUV transmission. Base pressure in the vacuum would therefore need be very very low, which requires the use of pumps capable of pumping large volumes of xenon. That's a big problem. To pump xenon the pumps require the injection of a purge gas otherwise they overheat.

Xenon was a technological deadend, abandoned in 2004

US-6972421-B2 and US-7291853-B2 are a couple patents from back then.

 

[Goblinski]

ASML haven't any interest in doing such expensive research today, that only become profitable in ten years. This is especially true when it has a monopoly on lithography tools. Tools that not only works well, but most importantly are insanely expensive.

Mmmm... nope.

What ASML's interests are and how far ahead they are in research might be beyond the reach of easy categorical statements.

Thirty+ years ago such research (including Wilton, Connecticut's Perkin Elmer (whose Micralign machines are still active here and there) > acquired by SVG > whose Wilton site became today's ASML Wilton factory, was done at least five years ahead - and everybody else in this business did too.

EUV's gestation period - from Sandia's first prototypes through ASML purchasing SVG to the first ASML machines sold was north of 20 years, with about twelve years from the time ASML became owner of the project to the first machine sold.

I can guarantee you two things - one, that ASML has a very clear idea of what type of (very different from now) technology they'll be releasing in ten years, because they are already working on it, and two - that neither you, nor I (nor the neighbors I have that work in the Wilton factory) know what it will be.

Cheers

 

[NinoPino]

Mmmm... nope.

What ASML's interests are and how far ahead they are in research might be beyond the reach of easy categorical statements.

Really 'beyond the reach of easy categorical statements' ?
To me, this seems to be at least exaggerated, sound plausible in a SF movie but not in real world.
I think ASML is a company that invest in research according to the market situation as every other company do.

Thirty+ years ago such research ....

30 years ago was another era, not comparable with today's investments or difficulties in technological advancements.

I can guarantee you two things - one, that ASML has a very clear idea of what type of (very different from now) technology they'll be releasing in ten years, because they are already working on it, and two - that neither you, nor I (nor the neighbors I have that work in the Wilton factory) know what it will be.

You would have said the same of Intel only few years ago.
My assumption is simple, ASML, as any other company on earth, do not invest billions if is the only player in the market. ASML not only is the leader by many years, but actually is a lot ahead of any potential competitor. In this situation it is normal that they invest only in progressive and economically safe advancements.

Cheers

Cheers.😀

 

[acadia11]

ASML is already king of the hill and has a serious backlog and with the increase in number of tools they need to deliver to meet the ever expanding AI demands, Im quite sure they are not as concerned with re-defining an already profitable ecosystem that works very well, and has a clear enhancement pipeline. There is really only 1 other competitor in the EUV game so ASML rightfully is focusing on delivering. I don't know their roadmap but I'd suspect they may be doing advanced research on alternative ecosystems but ... what's the incentive to pour resources into something that can not keep up with the production demands, cost seems to be less of a concern for their customers like TSMC. Russia on the otherhand with the embargo /sanctions and lack of access to advanced tooling and a nascent chip manufacturing industry has a lot more incentive to pursue these ideas. What do they care about the current ecosystem they haven't invested heavily into it and sanctions are keeping them from getting repairs on their current tooling.

 

[jkflipflop98]

There is a huge level of ignorance of the semi market going on in here.

ASML is indeed investing billions upon billions in research right now. They are plugging away at the next gen tech for 10 years down the line. If they weren't, they wouldn't have a chance at existence in the future. In this business, you can't just rest on your laurels. You HAVE to forge ahead no matter how big of a "lead" you may have. It takes a decade at least to get from an idea to a shipping product. These types of things don't just happen in a year or two.

It took over 30 years to nail down EUV lithography with many of the biggest and brightest minds in the world working on it. It's a monumental feat of engineering. I've seen these tools in person, and they're beyond impressive. To think they're sitting back and counting money without putting anything in future research is so laughable it's borderline absurd.

 

[KraakBal]

LOL, just watch out for scooter bombs outside your building, Orcs

 

[Pierce2623]

ASML haven't any interest in doing such expensive research today, that only become profitable in ten years. This is especially true when it has a monopoly on lithography tools. Tools that not only works well, but most importantly are insanely expensive.

You have zero idea what you’re talking about. If thaey had no interest in advancing tech they’d still have DUV machines as their top rung instead of EUV. You’re insane if you think they’re not involved in research to increase their profitability.

 

[Inveticus]

ASML haven't any interest in doing such expensive research today, that only become profitable in ten years. This is especially true when it has a monopoly on lithography tools. Tools that not only works well, but most importantly are insanely expensive.

Actually they do. It's their main business. Developing and improving lithography tooling for chip production. Russia needs to develop it's own because ASML isn't delivering and or servicing their lithography technology any more, due to embargo restrictions. ASML is decades ahead of any and all competition. Russia can't develop competing technology in the needed time frame. So they are going for cheaper and simpeler chip development. Simply because they have no choice. Russia is currently running on old Lithography tech that isn't serviced bij ASML anymore. They can't keep it running by themselfs. Thats why they are smuggling in western chipsets to keep everything running. Without those western chipsets, Russia would grind to a complete halt. Without ASML there are no smartphones, no electronic appliances, no computers, no cars with advanced electronics, No planes, no missles, no tanks, no factories. 90% of all chips in the entire world are made with tech from ASML, and can't be made without ASML.

Thats also one of the reasons why Trumps comments about Europe beeing a bad business partner is total garbage. Without the Netherlands the US wouldn't and couldn't be the most powerful nation on this planet. Without ASML there would be close to no more electronics in the US.

 

[Pierce2623]

Actually they do. It's their main business. Developing and improving lithography tooling for chip production. Russia needs to develop it's own because ASML isn't delivering and or servicing their lithography technology any more, due to embargo restrictions. ASML is decades ahead of any and all competition. Russia can't develop competing technology in the needed time frame. So they are going for cheaper and simpeler chip development. Simply because they have no choice. Russia is currently running on old Lithography tech that isn't serviced bij ASML anymore. They can't keep it running by themselfs. Thats why they are smuggling in western chipsets to keep everything running. Without those western chipsets, Russia would grind to a complete halt. Without ASML there are no smartphones, no electronic appliances, no computers, no cars with advanced electronics, No planes, no missles, no tanks, no factories. 90% of all chips in the entire world are made with tech from ASML, and can't be made without ASML.

Thats also one of the reasons why Trumps comments about Europe beeing a bad business partner is total garbage. Without the Netherlands the US wouldn't and couldn't be the most powerful nation on this planet. Without ASML there would be close to no more electronics in the US.

I agree with you in almost every point but one. ASML might be officially “Dutch” but 50% of the company is based in the US. A large portion of ASML’s design and manufacturing is done in the US, too. So the US is really not dependent on the Netherlands at all and the Netherlands has no ability to cut the US off from ASML technology.

 

[93QSD5]

There is a huge level of ignorance of the semi market going on in here.

ASML is indeed investing billions upon billions in research right now. They are plugging away at the next gen tech for 10 years down the line. If they weren't, they wouldn't have a chance at existence in the future. In this business, you can't just rest on your laurels. You HAVE to forge ahead no matter how big of a "lead" you may have. It takes a decade at least to get from an idea to a shipping product. These types of things don't just happen in a year or two.

It took over 30 years to nail down EUV lithography with many of the biggest and brightest minds in the world working on it. It's a monumental feat of engineering. I've seen these tools in person, and they're beyond impressive. To think they're sitting back and counting money without putting anything in future research is so laughable it's borderline absurd.

Quite shocking to see someone who can actually think on this site. Thank you.

 

[NinoPino]

You have zero idea what you’re talking about. If thaey had no interest in advancing tech they’d still have DUV machines as their top rung instead of EUV. You’re insane if you think they’re not involved in research to increase their profitability.

I not intend this.
Obviously they invest a lot of money in research, but how much money, and what type of advancement they aim to achieve ?
In a dominant position, for sure they invest the minimum amount needed to advance the technology they already developed. There is no reason for ASML (investors) to risk money when there is no competitors.

 

[Eximo]

Quite shocking to see someone who can actually think on this site. Thank you.

98 jkflipflops is a lot of compute power

 

[NinoPino]

Actually they do. It's their main business. Developing and improving lithography tooling for chip production. Russia needs to develop it's own because ASML isn't delivering and or servicing their lithography technology any more, due to embargo restrictions. ASML is decades ahead of any and all competition.

Why not centuries ?

Russia can't develop competing technology in the needed time frame.

If there is no alternative, every time frame is acceptable.

So they are going for cheaper and simpeler chip development. Simply because they have no choice.

And this is not a bad thing if the results worth the effort.
Often, to use a new approach can give good results for common problems. And the necessity is a effective motivation to look at the problem with a new pov. For sure ASML has no motivation to invest a big amount of money in new approaches.
If you think, ASML invest billions in new methods of doing the same thing they already do, for the only reason to make cheaper tools, well, you are very optimistic.

Russia is currently running on old Lithography tech that isn't serviced bij ASML anymore. They can't keep it running by themselfs. Thats why they are smuggling in western chipsets to keep everything running. Without those western chipsets, Russia would grind to a complete halt. Without ASML there are no smartphones, no electronic appliances, no computers, no cars with advanced electronics, No planes, no missles, no tanks, no factories. 90% of all chips in the entire world are made with tech from ASML, and can't be made without ASML.

No life ? Human extinction ? Please...

Thats also one of the reasons why Trumps comments about Europe beeing a bad business partner is total garbage. Without the Netherlands the US wouldn't and couldn't be the most powerful nation on this planet. Without ASML there would be close to no more electronics in the US.

Exaggerated statements. Without ASML, others will replace it, as always happen. Nothing and nobody is absolutely indispensable, it's just a matter of time and money.

 

[93QSD5]

I not intend this.
Obviously they invest a lot of money in research, but how much money, and what type of advancement they aim to achieve ?
In a dominant position, for sure they invest the minimum amount needed to advance the technology they already developed. There is no reason for ASML (investors) to risk money when there is no competitors.

Thank god you are not in charge of any managerial position...