News Ryzen 7000 Retailer Pricing Shows Fair Premium Over Ryzen 5000

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ddcservices

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AMD priced itself out of the market as far as I was concerned when it launched Zen 3 and now it wants to price Zen 4 even worse in the middle of a PC sales slump? That is going to be interesting.

Doesn't matter to me as I'm not planning to upgrade from the i5-11400 I put together last year within the next four years minimum.
So, you went with the 11400, which isn't really any faster than the 10400. You weren't looking at the high end in the slightest, but then, you look at what prices are like at the high end and start to complain.

It's like saying that Ferrari priced itself out of the market because your last car was a Ford Fiesta S-trim and you could never consider buying even a $25,000 car because it's a higher tier than you bought, or would consider buying.

Your next laptop may be a Chromebook, because they are cheap, not just inexpensive, but cheap, and then you will talk about how no one needs anything more powerful, or how prices are too high.

Zen3 was only $50 more than Zen2, but AMD didn't release multiple chips with the same core/thread count, so no cheaper version of the Ryzen 7(until recently).
 
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InvalidError

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So, you went with the 11400, which isn't really any faster than the 10400.
The 10400 has no CPU-hosted NVMe slot and no PCIe 4.0. Everything that was available to me cost practically the same between the 10400 and 11400 at the time, so the 10400 made absolutely no sense. Also, I keep my PCs for 10+ years, I will use all of the baseline PCIe 4.0 sooner or later.

Zen3 was only $50 more than Zen2
Doesn't matter much when the math before me was $180 for an i5-11400 or $300 for a 5600X with both performing roughly the same all-stock. No interest in overclocking or any unnecessary frills, I just want something reliable that I can build and forget for the foreseeable future to replace my i5-3470 before something inevitably blows up from old age.

Also, the 3600X was down to $120 shortly before the 5600X launched and the TSMC wafer crunch hit in full force, which made the jump from 3600X to 5600X $180 rather than $50.
 
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KyaraM

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Which is something you could almost get out of a Raspberry Pi 4, back when those existed.
looking at the 3 RPI4s I got over the past year
It's okay, I'm sure they didn't it mean it that way!

Ahem. In seriousness, though, I didn't find it particularly hard to get one of those lately. The last one I bought just 3 months back to MSRP here in Europe. A bit lower, even, since it came bundled with power supply and SD and together they cost less than individually. They are capable little machines for web browsing and even as network servers.

Well, we know Raptor Lake uses the same cores and the same manufacturing node. So, the only way it gets much faster is:
  • More E-cores (good if you need 'em)
  • Faster clock speeds (as if cooling Alder Lake wasn't already a challenge)
  • Faster DDR5
  • More cache
So, I don't expect much in the way of gains, other than maybe if you're using a high-end cooling solution. The way I see it, Raptor Lake is basically just a refresh of Alder Lake. It's probably not even going to rise to the level of a Coffee Lake or Comet Lake, in terms of real improvements over the previous gen.
You... know that Raptor Lake gets literally everything you mentioned, right? Also, outside maybe the 12900K(S), none of them are hard to cool in the least. Heck, a sub-40 bucks cools my 12700k at around 80-82°C in Cinebench, depending on the core... Raptor won't be harder to cool overall than Alder Lake, and it's not like it will be any different for AMD anyways. So I have absolutely no idea what your point even is...
 
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bit_user

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looking at the 3 RPI4s I got over the past year
OMG, so you're admitting to contributing to the shortage?

You... know that Raptor Lake gets literally everything you mentioned, right?
Yes, that was my point. I was listing the differences between it and Alder Lake.

At the same power level, we shouldn't expect to see much performance difference, except in highly-threaded workloads that can actually use the additional E-cores.

Raptor won't be harder to cool overall than Alder Lake,
The fact that they're boosting clocks & power limits says otherwise.

and it's not like it will be any different for AMD anyways.
AMD is both advancing a full process node and has a new microarchitecture. Neither of which you can say about Raptor Lake. AMD will also be moving to DDR5, which should benefit them in multithreaded performance (where DDR4 has probably been holding them back).

So, I think you're wrong about that, and for multiple reasons.

So I have absolutely no idea what your point even is...
You said "I kinda have my doubts they will outperform Raptor Lake, honestly." about Ryzen 7000 series.

I stated my conclusion at the bottom of my post. The second-to-last sentence:

"The way I see it, Raptor Lake is basically just a refresh of Alder Lake"​
In other words, it's not really either a "Tick" nor a "Tock", in Intel's old parlance. Just a slightly bigger, hotter Alder Lake. I don't know how much clearer I can say it.
 
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BeedooX

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I'd suggest upgrading the parts likely to have the greatest impact. Maybe a simple BIOS + CPU upgrade to a 5950X would be wise, given recent discounts. You could probably get a few $ for the 3900X on ebay, or maybe just hang onto it as a spare.
In my case, my November 2018 Threadripper 2950X won't switch out for a 5950X...

At nearly four years old, it still delivers great performance for what many would say is not a gaming CPU, but as an enthusiast - four years is too long to wait for an upgrade.
 
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darknate

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If prices are any thing like what they are here when they are finally released I will be quite disappointed. An almost 50% increase in price, what a joke. I was optimistic about Zen 4 but if prices are anything like these leaks, then the price vs performance compared to current gen won't be worth it at all.
you do realize that the prices listed are not the original MSRP and instead are the cut-down current prices. $300 ($340), $449 ($494), $549 ($625), $799 ($906) would be a better comparison.
"Preliminary pricing of AMD's new Ryzen 7000 Zen 4 Processors has appeared online, "
"The pricing comes from PC Canada, and hardware is more expensive outside the U.S. market. There's also a possibility that the listings are placeholders, so treat the pricing with a bit of salt. Compared to MSRP, these prices are reasonable, netting around a 10% to 12% price hike compared to Ryzen 5000 when it first launched. But, these prices are much more drastic now that Ryzen 5000 has been out for a few years and highly discounted in recent months. "
Maybe this will help calm you down a little.
 

bit_user

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In my case, my November 2018 Threadripper 2950X won't switch out for a 5950X...

At nearly four years old, it still delivers great performance for what many would say is not a gaming CPU, but as an enthusiast - four years is too long to wait for an upgrade.
Yeah, I hate how expensive workstation CPUs have become. I used to have a proper workstation CPU (what would now be classed as Xeon W 3000-series), but cannot afford the going rate for these things.

I don't blame AMD for their ThreadRipper pricing, because it's roughly in line with desktop CPUs, in terms of $/core - and that's in proportion to what the CPUs cost them to make. It's just a bit unfortunate how far out of reach the bottom tier of this platform has gotten.

On the plus side, desktop CPUs and platform have come such a long ways in the past 5 years that it almost doesn't matter for me. I wouldn't really benefit from > 16 cores, for anything I do.
 

rluker5

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looking at the 3 RPI4s I got over the past year
It's okay, I'm sure they didn't it mean it that way!

Ahem. In seriousness, though, I didn't find it particularly hard to get one of those lately. The last one I bought just 3 months back to MSRP here in Europe. A bit lower, even, since it came bundled with power supply and SD and together they cost less than individually. They are capable little machines for web browsing and even as network servers.


You... know that Raptor Lake gets literally everything you mentioned, right? Also, outside maybe the 12900K(S), none of them are hard to cool in the least. Heck, a sub-40 bucks cools my 12700k at around 80-82°C in Cinebench, depending on the core... Raptor won't be harder to cool overall than Alder Lake, and it's not like it will be any different for AMD anyways. So I have absolutely no idea what your point even is...
That is a big list of stuff. Bigger than going from 4 cores to 6? We shall see soon enough. Also kind of the end of the ringbus on a monolithic chip era. And then there is the looming shadow of Pluton. Gives me the creeps. I wonder how long before somebody monitors how much it phones out. I see no indication that RPL is getting that yet. Hopefully it doesn't.
 
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So, I don't expect much in the way of gains, other than maybe if you're using a high-end cooling solution. The way I see it, Raptor Lake is basically just a refresh of Alder Lake. It's probably not even going to rise to the level of a Coffee Lake or Comet Lake, in terms of real improvements over the previous gen.
It might be a refresh of the existing architecture, but it sounds like Intel will be increasing the E-core counts, clock rates and cache at any given price level. If the leaks hold true, then the i7-13700K will essentially be a faster version of the i9-12900K, with the same core counts, but higher clocks and more cache. And the i5-13600K will likely outperform the i7-12700K as well. Compared to that processor, it will still only have 6 P-cores instead of 8, but it will have 8 E-cores instead of 4, again with higher clocks and more cache. And the 13900K at the top of the stack doubles its E-cores from 8 to 16, while pushing the cache and clocks even higher. So even if the prices for a comparable model number rise a bit, you would still most likely see notable performance-per-dollar gains at any given price level.
 
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Wanting to raise prices doesn't equate successfully raising prices. The fab shortages used to justify hikes all around over the last year is mostly over along with a demand crash across most of the PC space. AMD, Intel and Nvidia will likely be forced to compromise if they don't want their revenue to crash from the drop in demand eclipsing any ARPU gains.
Doesn't matter...now the price increases are about raw material getting more expensive and the general inflation making everything more expensive.
They have to pay more for power, water and everything so you will have to pay more for their products as well.
AMD is both advancing a full process node and has a new microarchitecture. Neither of which you can say about Raptor Lake. AMD will also be moving to DDR5, which should benefit them in multithreaded performance (where DDR4 has probably been holding them back).
From what we have seen until now though zen 4 only gets a decent boost in performance from the high clocks they can reach and not from the change in architecture, and those higher clocks come with an TDP increase that is insane, they go from 140W to 240W in one generation...let's all imagine really really hard and think which one is going to be harder to cool than their predecessor.
13900k is going to 250w from 240w while the 7950x will go to 240w from 140w...
Also if you compare ddr4 to ddr5 for Alder it also increases power draw by quite a bit so if zen want's to stick to it's power limits it will have to lower clocks to use ddr5 instead of ddr4, maybe that's why the TDP increase is so high though.
 

hotaru251

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not really that bad imho.

5600x MSRP at launch was $299.
7600x at $350 isnt bad imho as it has IGPU this time around. (not to mention OC potential)

the 7900x has highest increase but again that and the 7950x are for business/work...where you are expected to pay premium.
 

Ogotai

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come with an TDP increase that is insane, they go from 140W to 240W in one generation
im you may be misreading things, according to techpowerup.

" Apparently, there will be certain SKUs of Socket AM5 processors with TDP of 170 W. This would be the same classical definition of TDP that AMD has been consistently using. The package-power tracking (PPT), a figure that translates as power limit for the socket, is 230 W. "

the 230 watt power figure seems to be max for the socket, NOT the cpus them selves, at least not right now.

" AMD plans to give AM5 a similar life-cycle to AM4, which is now spanning five generations of Ryzen processors, and the 170 W TDP and 230 W PPT figures only denote design goals for the socket. "

toms seems to confirm this as well
 

bit_user

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That is a big list of stuff. Bigger than going from 4 cores to 6?
So, if we're comparing with Kaby Lake -> Coffee Lake, let's call it a 50% boost as a first-order approximation of the all-thread workload speedup. I'd hazard a guess it's probably more like 40%, since TDPs didn't go up 50%, but it gets us in the ballpark.

Now, let's look at the known differences going into Raptor Lake:
  • More E-cores: only helps if you're using > one thread per P-core + all of the E-cores that Alder Lake has. That's good for those all-thread workloads, like rendering, but won't help most games, productivity, etc.
  • Faster clock speeds: we're talking about a couple hundred MHz. So, a max of like 5% or so. And clockspeed boosts are nearly always sub-linear speedups, because memory latency.
  • Faster DDR5: this is going to be in the realm of a couple %, but mostly limited to improving all-thread workloads and possibly just enough to keep from bottlenecking the additional E-cores.
  • More cache: very workload dependent, as we saw with Ryzen 5800X3D. However, the main improvement is said to be a doubling of L2 cache, while L3 will only grow by ~20%. I'd guess the L3 increase comes naturally from adding more E-core tiles, and 20% is a small enough increase that it shouldn't make much difference. The impact of growing L2 from 1.25 MB to 2.5 MB is a little hard to gauge, but I'd guess it's mainly in the realm of a couple %.
So, lightly-threaded workloads would only benefit from 2 of the 4, assuming your cooling is adequate to unleash full PL2. Otherwise, just the cache. Expect improvements in the realm of mid single-digit %'s, or less.

Highly-threaded workloads are the main improvement Intel will tout. There, I think cooling will be even more critical and the faster DDR5 speeds might be about enough to keep from bottlenecking, but we could see speedups in low double-digit %'s.

Anyway, getting back to the Coffee Lake gen-on-gen improvement: no, Raptor Lake will be nothing like that.

Also kind of the end of the ringbus on a monolithic chip era.
Well, it's Meteor Lake that transitions to tiles.
 
im you may be misreading things, according to techpowerup.

" Apparently, there will be certain SKUs of Socket AM5 processors with TDP of 170 W. This would be the same classical definition of TDP that AMD has been consistently using. The package-power tracking (PPT), a figure that translates as power limit for the socket, is 230 W. "

the 230 watt power figure seems to be max for the socket, NOT the cpus them selves, at least not right now.

" AMD plans to give AM5 a similar life-cycle to AM4, which is now spanning five generations of Ryzen processors, and the 170 W TDP and 230 W PPT figures only denote design goals for the socket. "

toms seems to confirm this as well
PPT is the maximum power that the socket will allow the CPU to draw...
Lowering ppt will lower the maximum the CPU can draw and can cause lower performance.
It's the same thing as PL1 and PL2, only that AMD pushes the max TDP to the mobo so that it doesn't show up in CPU benchmarks, if ZEN 4 is going to have high clocks it IS going to use all of that 240W, otherwise it won't be able to clock that high.

Change here 105W and 142W to 170W and 240W for zen4.
https://www.gamersnexus.net/guides/3491-explaining-precision-boost-overdrive-benchmarks-auto-oc
We’ll quote directly from AMD’s review documentation so that there is no room for confusion:

Package Power Tracking (“PPT”): The PPT threshold is the allowed socket power consumption permitted across the voltage rails supplying the socket. Applications with high thread counts, and/or “heavy” threads, can encounter PPT limits that can be alleviated with a raised PPT limit.
  1. Default for Socket AM4 is at least 142W on motherboards rated for 105W TDP processors.
  2. Default for Socket AM4 is at least 88W on motherboards rated for 65W TDP processors.
 
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So, if we're comparing with Kaby Lake -> Coffee Lake, let's call it a 50% boost as a first-order approximation of the all-thread workload speedup. I'd hazard a guess it's probably more like 40%, since TDPs didn't go up 50%, but it gets us in the ballpark.

Now, let's look at the known differences going into Raptor Lake:
  • More E-cores: only helps if you're using > one thread per P-core + all of the E-cores that Alder Lake has. That's good for those all-thread workloads, like rendering, but won't help most games, productivity, etc.
  • Faster clock speeds: we're talking about a couple hundred MHz. So, a max of like 5% or so. And clockspeed boosts are nearly always sub-linear speedups, because memory latency.
  • Faster DDR5: this is going to be in the realm of a couple %, but mostly limited to improving all-thread workloads and possibly just enough to keep from bottlenecking the additional E-cores.
  • More cache: very workload dependent, as we saw with Ryzen 5800X3D. However, the main improvement is said to be a doubling of L2 cache, while L3 will only grow by ~20%. I'd guess the L3 increase comes naturally from adding more E-core tiles, and 20% is a small enough increase that it shouldn't make much difference. The impact of growing L2 from 1.25 MB to 2.5 MB is a little hard to gauge, but I'd guess it's mainly in the realm of a couple %.
So, lightly-threaded workloads would only benefit from 2 of the 4, assuming your cooling is adequate to unleash full PL2. Otherwise, just the cache. Expect improvements in the realm of mid single-digit %'s, or less.

Highly-threaded workloads are the main improvement Intel will tout. There, I think cooling will be even more critical and the faster DDR5 speeds might be about enough to keep from bottlenecking, but we could see speedups in low double-digit %'s.

Anyway, getting back to the Coffee Lake gen-on-gen improvement: no, Raptor Lake will be nothing like that.


Well, it's Meteor Lake that transitions to tiles.
27% higher minimums in games....done deal...super seller!
If lower models without e-cores show similar gains in minimums the whole lineup is going to sell like hot cakes.
 
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InvalidError

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Doesn't matter...now the price increases are about raw material getting more expensive and the general inflation making everything more expensive.
When the gross margins are already excessive, raising prices is only an exercise in greed, it has very little to do with costs. If retail prices had anything to do with costs, the Ryzen 5600X would never have been able to drop from $300 at launch to $200 now despite inflation.
 

watzupken

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In my opinion, we cannot take store prices as the supposed MSRP. While I am expecting prices to go up with the next gen CPUs and GPUs over the product that they are replacing, I think it is best to wait for prices to be shared in the official announcements. Price hikes are expected because the likes of AMD and Nvidia have already paid an inflated amount of money to secure fab allocation. So even as chip demand is sliding, what is paid is unlikely to be refunded. And with all the big chip companies stuck on TSMC's 5nm, you can be sure the cost is not going to look good as they try and outbid each other.
 
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watzupken

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When the gross margins are already excessive, raising prices is only an exercise in greed, it has very little to do with costs. If retail prices had anything to do with costs, the Ryzen 5600X would never have been able to drop from $300 at launch to $200 now despite inflation.
Objectively, this is the evilness/ greed from this "shareholder system" right? At the end of the day, the company is obliged to generate profits for their shareholders, so that the top brass continues to look for opportunities to do just that on top of trying to produce good products. And if you look at it, people where complaining about the increase in prices, yet the 5600X may well be one of the best sold AMD processor, that likely outsold every Comet and Rocket Lake processors in the DIY space back when it was introduced. I recall supply can't even keep up with demand so much so that the chip can't easily be found. Some stores even resort to forcing bundles to get an AMD processor back then. So as you can see, there is little incentive for AMD to drop prices, only until budget Alder Lake processor starts to appear, did we actually see AMD start cutting prices drastically. Therefore, lack of competition and willing buyers will always result in an ever increasing prices of products, not just for chips.
 

InvalidError

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Therefore, lack of competition and willing buyers will always result in an ever increasing prices of products, not just for chips.
PC sales are crashing since everyone who needed a new PC likely got one in the last 2.5 years. There will be competition in the form of vendors having to convince people to upgrade when most have little to no reason to do so again any time soon. It will be a situation similar to the "Y2K bug" where it will take 3-4 years for demand to bounce back.
 
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KyaraM

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OMG, so you're admitting to contributing to the shortage?


Yes, that was my point. I was listing the differences between it and Alder Lake.

At the same power level, we shouldn't expect to see much performance difference, except in highly-threaded workloads that can actually use the additional E-cores.


The fact that they're boosting clocks & power limits says otherwise.


AMD is both advancing a full process node and has a new microarchitecture. Neither of which you can say about Raptor Lake. AMD will also be moving to DDR5, which should benefit them in multithreaded performance (where DDR4 has probably been holding them back).

So, I think you're wrong about that, and for multiple reasons.


You said "I kinda have my doubts they will outperform Raptor Lake, honestly." about Ryzen 7000 series.

I stated my conclusion at the bottom of my post. The second-to-last sentence:

"The way I see it, Raptor Lake is basically just a refresh of Alder Lake"​
In other words, it's not really either a "Tick" nor a "Tock", in Intel's old parlance. Just a slightly bigger, hotter Alder Lake. I don't know how much clearer I can say it.
How am I "contributing to the shortage" when I actually used all of them for various projects, starting from a home-made NAS to building and gifting my nephew a retro-console. I'm talking about THREE Raspis, not 300. Get some perspective. They are also the only three I ever bought, so it's not as if I'm hoarding them. I wanted to express that they were quite available where I live if you know where to look and nothing more, jfc.

And you don't have to get any clearer, I can see you have no idea what you are talking about and only was to attack people not of your opinion. Spare me the rest, please...
 

bit_user

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27% higher minimums in games....done deal...super seller!
Oops, you forgot to include a link to where you got that from.

We've seen from 5800X3D that some games respond very well to extra L3 cache, while others almost not at all. So, depending on whether those benchmarks are testing a wide range of games or just a few, cherry-picked (or lucky) samples, that could explain a lot.
 

bit_user

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How am I "contributing to the shortage" when I actually used all of them for various projects,
Well, 3 Pi's is a drop in the ocean, but when some people have trouble finding one, it's not exactly helping.

They are also the only three I ever bought, so it's not as if I'm hoarding them.
You could've hypothetically bought others, back when production capacity was cheap & plentiful, and it wouldn't be a factor in the current shortage. So, that has no bearing on it.

Anyway, not worth dwelling on, as it wasn't meant to be a serious point. The people doing the real damage to the ecosystem are really the scalpers. Although, if higher prices help keep people from buying more than they need...

I can see you have no idea what you are talking about and only was to attack people not of your opinion. Spare me the rest, please...
If I were simply attacking people, then I wouldn't explain why I disagree. If you don't try to understand my explanation, that's your loss.
 
Oops, you forgot to include a link to where you got that from.

We've seen from 5800X3D that some games respond very well to extra L3 cache, while others almost not at all. So, depending on whether those benchmarks are testing a wide range of games or just a few, cherry-picked (or lucky) samples, that could explain a lot.
There has only been one "leak" and that's by bilibili, every website has done a rundown of this.
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/core-i9-13900k-outperform-core-i9-12900k-by-5-percent-in-early-gaming-benchmarks
 

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