News Ryzen 9 7900X Delidded: Lower Temperature and 5.50 GHz on All Cores

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I appreciate the explanation, but I'm still not getting it. The thinner the IHS, the faster you get to to air which is relatively high heat resistance. Why is getting to high resistance materials faster a good thing? As far as I can imagine, you're idea is only valid if the ultimate destination has no resistance. If the IHS was a foot thick, wouldn't that do a fantastic job of keeping the CPU cool?

Of course, you can reliably passively cool a modern 125 watt CPU with about 15 pounds of copper fin stack attached to a copper cold plate via a 10mm heat pipe. I know because I have one in my clean room lab! The heat pipe is the key to making the 15 pounds of copper work. They have crazy good thermal conductivity and act as thermal highways to rapidly spread the heat throughout the 1.5 foot x 2 foot x 6 inch copper fin array which has enough surface area to radiate and convect the heat away into the surroundings without inducing a 0 = delta Temperature scenario (explained below)

You have to think of the whole system. Die-solder-IHS-TIM-cold plate-water-radiator. Let’s just face it, thermodynamics is hard haha. To put it simply, you want the heat to travel as quickly and efficiently as possible away from the die to the system endpoint (the air) all while maintaining a high delta temperature between the interfacing materials (example: the closer in temperature the die and IHS are to each other, the lower the thermal transfer rate will be, if die/IHS are the same temperature then thermal transfer stops altogether. This is why just a solid foot thick piece of copper will never work, there is not enough surface area to transfer the heat into the air as fast as die heat is being transferred to it. At some point the IHS will reach die temperature and no more heat can be transferred. So consider mass to be good only for short term thermal events) . The best way to do this is to use materials with a level of thermal conductivity and certain thickness that allows a thermal transfer rate higher than the die’s transfer rate to maintain a healthy delta temperature, so the thinner the IHS, the thinner the cold plate, the faster the water is being forced through the micro fins, and the greater the volume of air being forced through the radiator, the better. You are correct that air has a terrible thermal conductivity value, but that value is only valid if the air is stationary, we are pushing around 60 cubic feet of air per minute through the radiator as well as slightly compressing it and forcing the atoms to become turbulent which increases collisions, all this allows air to be viable in our system to offload the heat into the surroundings.

AMD put a lot of smart sensors in zen 4 to make sure the 0 = delta temp scenario I describe never happens and obviously the die-IHS system + smart sensors have been engineered to appropriately transfer enough heat generated from a regulated 230 watt electrical load to the cooling solution so that the die can reliably be maintained at 95C under full load. However, I would bet that sanding down the IHS to zen 3 thickness + devising a custom cooler mounting solution would probably bring down the peak full load temperature to ~85 at 230 watts.
 
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Phaaze88

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Ahh, but sadly you can't do that because if you don't run out-of-the-box the universe will implode...or something.
Oh, hat's right. Most PC owners don't mess with things like XMP or other bios settings. :/
Time for folks to bloody learn. Be it Intel, AMD, Nvidia... a small change can go a long way.
Then again, Nvidia has been getting a bit ridiculous lately with their upper end...
 
Oh, hat's right. Most PC owners don't mess with things like XMP or other bios settings. :/
Time for folks to bloody learn. Be it Intel, AMD, Nvidia... a small change can go a long way.
Then again, Nvidia has been getting a bit ridiculous lately with their upper end...
Hm... It's not that simple, I'd say... I do agree on the premise, but with several caveats.

Look at OEM systems (which is one of the angles my worries come from the most): they usually re-use old designs and barely meet the minimum in requirements without a care in the world for the end-user experience. Example: Dell Aurora series. When you have PCs sold to people with no technical expertise, you'd think OEMs would actually do just a bit more than the bare minimum for them. Regular shops (think MC's service to assemble), this is covered and the customer service will determine if they explain these nuances to the customer so they can decide. Still, I'd trust there is still a layer of "expertise" in such shops that will help or protect the people with no technical savvyness.

If you enter DYI territory, you're supposed to know. Period. I can't give a pass to someone buying the parts for a PC and not know the bare minimum about how temperatures work and how to tweak the PC at the most fundamental level, which is XMP and other really basic things. There's plenty reading material for someone to prepare themselves and from that point on, no sympathy. As for the people that do know, this sucks in a lot of levels. If you want to lower temps without sacrificing anything, well, you're screwed. Most things you can do, that don't involve undervolting (even then, that's a slippery slope) you effectively sacrifice your warranty and that just flat out sucks. This is on all camps and they all suck for that.

Regards.
 

Phaaze88

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Hm... It's not that simple, I'd say... I do agree on the premise, but with several caveats.

Look at OEM systems (which is one of the angles my worries come from the most): they usually re-use old designs and barely meet the minimum in requirements without a care in the world for the end-user experience. Example: Dell Aurora series. When you have PCs sold to people with no technical expertise, you'd think OEMs would actually do just a bit more than the bare minimum for them. Regular shops (think MC's service to assemble), this is covered and the customer service will determine if they explain these nuances to the customer so they can decide. Still, I'd trust there is still a layer of "expertise" in such shops that will help or protect the people with no technical savvyness.

If you enter DYI territory, you're supposed to know. Period. I can't give a pass to someone buying the parts for a PC and not know the bare minimum about how temperatures work and how to tweak the PC at the most fundamental level, which is XMP and other really basic things. There's plenty reading material for someone to prepare themselves and from that point on, no sympathy. As for the people that do know, this sucks in a lot of levels. If you want to lower temps without sacrificing anything, well, you're screwed. Most things you can do, that don't involve undervolting (even then, that's a slippery slope) you effectively sacrifice your warranty and that just flat out sucks. This is on all camps and they all suck for that.

Regards.
Sadly, they(company) still make more from moving volume and doing the bare minimum than they lose, so they have no real incentive to change that.
Who do you point the finger to on that one? The company? Customer(s)? Both?

DIY: Plenty of examples of folks who can't be bothered to read - even a manual - or do their own research, so I can see where you're coming from with this.
The reaction to these thermals are too much. It is fine.
It only displays that behavior when all cores are loaded - the 'starting line' changes, that's all. A non-issue for gaming, but for certain work-related tasks, those users should make new custom fan curves.
Folks freaked out about Ryzen 3000 & 5000 low load thermals. It too, wasn't an issue, but one created by PEBKAC.
 
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Sadly, they(company) still make more from moving volume and doing the bare minimum than they lose, so they have no real incentive to change that.
Who do you point the finger to on that one? The company? Customer(s)? Both?
This is an easy one for me: the one building the system. AMD/Intel give the boundaries, OEMs follow them. Most choose to read the bottom and fine print for legal purposes and go with it. Whether I like it, approve of it or whine about it, or not, there is always a "trust" you place on whomever builds the systems you buy and expect them to do a good job (or higher than "barely passable"), but if you're not tech savvy, how do you measure that? The only "hard" data point you have is just reliability indexes and warranty. Even if you're not tech savvy, you can still read on warranties and such, so there's always a bare minimum someone can do. Always. Would I blame a customer for their shiny new system to perform like a dog compared to 99% of reviews out there? Not really. First the OEM and then each individual company that defines the "bare minimum". There's a reason why action class lawsuits exist.

DIY: Plenty of examples of folks who can't be bothered to read - even a manual - or do their own research, so I can see where you're coming from with this.
The reaction to these thermals are too much. It is fine.
It only displays that behavior when all cores are loaded - the 'starting line' changes, that's all. A non-issue for gaming, but for certain work-related tasks, those users should make new custom fan curves.
Folks freaked out about Ryzen 3000 & 5000 low load thermals. It too, wasn't an issue, but one created by PEBKAC.
Those FX cpus and their distance to thermal margin caused much confusion, with some users running thermally throttling cpus while not being entirely aware it was doing so.
To be honest, I have to say I did react horrified at the crazy jump of temps. Keep in mind the 5800X3D, which is the hottest of the Zen3 siblings, still stays well below 95°c under normal operation. I have one and I've mentioned several times I have it in a thermally constrained environment and it doesn't go above 85°c with a -15 curve in PBO's optimizer while keeping 100% expected clocks and all that (check my signature: HTPC). So, should I still be horrified? Yes, I think I should. I find it laughable and stupid AMD had to engineer such a TERRIBLE solution to keep backwards compatibility. It's kind of pathetic, really. I will grant I may be overreacting, but I dispise the "it's not a problem" crowd giving AMD (or any other, for that matter) an inch when I know they'll take a mile afterwards. What will be next? 120°c is going to be normal in a few gens? 300W all-core for 8 core CPUs? We'll need 2kW PSUs in a few years time for a mid range PC? Etc... Also, free performance on the table because of this is annoying. I like getting 100% of what I pay for.

Regards.
 
What will be next? 120°c is going to be normal in a few gens?
We can hope, and I mean that honestly.
The temp limit is purely a matter of what the physical material can handle, they don't make this out of spite they don't want to be swamped in RMAs the temp limit is what they can cover in warranty, if they make better nodes that can handle higher temps we will get faster cpus on the high end and/or easier to cool cpus at the low end.
 
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We can hope, and I mean that honestly.
The temp limit is purely a matter of what the physical material can handle, they don't make this out of spite they don't want to be swamped in RMAs the temp limit is what they can cover in warranty, if they make better nodes that can handle higher temps we will get faster cpus on the high end and/or easier to cool cpus at the low end.
Yes, but just keep in mind accepting that implies you will also accept all the increased costs of the platform and the associated risks.

Regards.
 
Yes, but just keep in mind accepting that implies you will also accept all the increased costs of the platform and the associated risks.

Regards.
I think you are talking about power, while it is connected it is not inseparably connected with temp, you can have a very cheap platform that draws little power and because the cpu can remain working at very high temps without breaking or losing perf you can also have cheaper cooling so it's all over cheaper.
As I said the high end will be for faster but the low end will be for cheaper.
 
I think you are talking about power, while it is connected it is not inseparably connected with temp, you can have a very cheap platform that draws little power and because the cpu can remain working at very high temps without breaking or losing perf you can also have cheaper cooling so it's all over cheaper.
As I said the high end will be for faster but the low end will be for cheaper.
You quoted temp, so the context of my answer is temperature. Power does tend to produce higher temps as long as it is not accounted for correctly. That is my biggest gripe with both AMD and Intel here. If a CPU consumes 300W, but it has been engineered in such a way that the average user has a viable way to get rid of all that excess heat (as in, not voiding the friggen warranty), it's not that much of an issue, but so far both AMD and Intel are coming out with piss poor solutions on that front and it's annoying (to say the least). Saving pennies and pushing the risk and cost to end users. That flat out sucks.

Regards.
 
but so far both AMD and Intel are coming out with piss poor solutions on that front and it's annoying (to say the least). Saving pennies and pushing the risk and cost to end users. That flat out sucks.

Regards.
For the end user it's the best possible solution ever...which is why AMD copied intel.
No matter what cooling the end user (or OEM) sticks into the system the cpu will boost as high as it possibly can with that cooling without shutting down or degrading, you don't lose performance (relative to your cooling) and you don't harm your cpu.
It's only for overclockers and extreme users, people that look at reviews and have to reach at least the same amounts of performance where this is even starting to become an issue.
 
For the end user it's the best possible solution ever...which is why AMD copied intel.
No matter what cooling the end user (or OEM) sticks into the system the cpu will boost as high as it possibly can with that cooling without shutting down or degrading, you don't lose performance (relative to your cooling) and you don't harm your cpu.
It's only for overclockers and extreme users, people that look at reviews and have to reach at least the same amounts of performance where this is even starting to become an issue.
What are you talking about? Using LGA? That has nothing to do with anything I'm talking about...

I smell a huge sidetracking conversation coming, so I'll stop here.

Regards.
 

jp7189

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What are you talking about? Using LGA? That has nothing to do with anything I'm talking about...

I smell a huge sidetracking conversation coming, so I'll stop here.

Regards.
I have mentioned in previous posts that my 12900k would gladly use more than 300w if it could but the 100C thermal throttle prevents that. It sounds like Ryzen 7000 behaves in the same way.

The two main limits imposed on CPUs are power and temp. Use a great cooling solution and the CPU will use more power (up to the limit). The opposite is also true; put a crap cooling solution in place and the CPU will use less power because the temp limit will keep it throttled. Also the hotter the chip the more efficient the cooling system becomes (higher delta T)

It has to be said that both manufacturers advertise specs on the lower end of the spectrum. Both can and will boost higher and longer in a system with great power delivery and cooling. It also has to be said pre-built systems tend use use the least cost components to hit the min spec, which ironically tends to make them use less power.

They great thing about enthusiast/ DIY is the choice and control of the final product.
 

Phaaze88

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I have mentioned in previous posts that my 12900k would gladly use more than 300w if it could but the 100C thermal throttle prevents that. It sounds like Ryzen 7000 behaves in the same way.
Ryzen 7000 doesn't behave the same way. When all its cores are under load, the starting point - as I call it - changes.
I'd imagine most of the cpus in PCs spend their time lounging around, and not running Blender or other for several hours at a time. So who does this extreme behavior really affect?
That, along with the recent Buildzoid video showing the 7950X's performance reaching its sweet spot around 200w... Ryzen 7950X does not need close to 300w to get the full performance - but neither does the 12900K.