[SOLVED] Ryzen RAM to be overclocked with INTEL

[A4G]

can Ryzen AMD optimized RAM to be overclocked with Intel CPU and Motherboard ?

i have VENGEANCE® RGB PRO, with AMD logo but with no XMP intel Certified logo

does that mean i cant use XMP with it ?

 

[kerberos_20]

it most likely means XMP might now work on intel, do you feel like beta tester?

 

[A4G]

it most likely means XMP might now work on intel, do you feel like beta tester?

sorry bro but i didn't understand your commend

 

[kerberos_20]

sorry bro but i didn't understand your commend

ah i made a typo, it was meant to be "not working on intel"

 

[geofelt]

"AMD optimized" sounds like just marketing.
What is the specific ram and what is the make/model of the motherboard?
The ram may not have the embedded XMP performance settings, but there should be no reason why you could not specify them explicitly yourself in the bios.
XMP is just a short hand way of specifying the settings to get the ram to run at advertised speeds.

 

[Roland Of Gilead]

can Ryzen AMD optimized RAM to be overclocked with Intel CPU and Motherboard ?

i have VENGEANCE® RGB PRO, with AMD logo but with no XMP intel Certified logo

does that mean i cant use XMP with it ?

Hey there,

Please link the ram modules you bought/or buying.

Most DIMMs will work on both systems. You set up XMP and away you go.

For some mobo manufacturers like Asus, they call it DOCP for AMD systems. But they can run on either Intel or AMD.

 

[A4G]

Hey there,

Please link the ram modules you bought/or buying.

Most DIMMs will work on both systems. You set up XMP and away you go.

For some mobo manufacturers like Asus, they call it DOCP for AMD systems. But they can run on either Intel or AMD.

here is the ram i bought
https://www.corsair.com/us/en/Categ.../Vengeance-PRO-RGB-Black/p/CMW32GX4M2Z3600C18

i take a look at my ASUS TUF B660M-PLUS motherboard QVL list and i found that the AMD 16GB kit RAM is listed, but the AMD 32GB kit RAM isn't

 

[geofelt]

What is the make/model of the motherboard??

 

[Roland Of Gilead]

here is the ram i bought
https://www.corsair.com/us/en/Categ.../Vengeance-PRO-RGB-Black/p/CMW32GX4M2Z3600C18

i take a look at my ASUS TUF B660M-PLUS motherboard QVL list and i found that the AMD 16GB kit RAM is listed, but the AMD 32GB kit RAM isn't

It's very likely the 32gb kit will too. Ensure you have the most up to date bios, to ensure best compatibility.

Disclaimer: If the DIMMs aren't on the QVL, it only means they haven't been tested or the QVL hasn't been updated. So, there is a small chance they won't work.

 

[geofelt]

I think you are good.
And... It is better to ask your questions BEFORE you buy.

 

[Karadjgne]

Amd didn't use DDR5 initially, Intel did. And also used XMP, as that's Intel copywrited programming. So DDR5 initially was optimized to work with Intel cpu's and XMP. It wasn't until later that AM5 came along and started to use DDR5, so it was only then that cpus and mobo's were made available for testing and optimization for AMD.

But as it stands now, all DDR5 is Intel optimized, only some ram is actually also optimized for AMD. Won't be long before all new DDR5 is optimized for both, you'd have to be unlucky and get a really old kit to find DDR5 that's not.

 

[zx128k]

can Ryzen AMD optimized RAM to be overclocked with Intel CPU and Motherboard ?

i have VENGEANCE® RGB PRO, with AMD logo but with no XMP intel Certified logo

does that mean i cant use XMP with it ?

Both AMD and Intel have different IMC's. The RAM would likely be tuned to work best with it target motherboards and CPUs. It just means that the manufactures overclock might not work, not the best setting for Intel CPUs but if the memory ICs are supported by the motherboard/BIOS then the kit will boot fine. You should still be able to overclock. The main issue is that the AMD support could mean the RAM is not in the motherboard memory QVL. Even without XMP you can set the timings manually. My RAM has the whole supports AMD logo but orks fine on my Intel motherboard. My motherboard QVL doesn't support 4xDIMMs DDR4-4000 but the overclock appears to work fine.

The main issue with RAM is the amount of work needed to get them to work manually. It can take hours to test each change in timings.

 

[Karadjgne]

QVL is worthless garbage. And what's worse is that ppl totally misunderstand its purpose.

The QVL is Qualified Vendor List. Not Qualified Ram List. It is not a guarantee or certification or even a statement that specific model ram will work, and ram not on the list is neither tested nor 100% compatible.

What the QVL really is is a list of ram in different kits, sizes, speeds all tested to say 'hey our board works, see we tested some ram and it was good'. The QVL qualifies the motherboard, not the ram used on it.

Makes exactly no difference whether a particular model was used or not, the ram has the same chances of working or compatibility as any other ram.

To get a true QRL, you'd have to hit up G.Skill or Crucial, who do actually test their ram extensively on every motherboard they can get their hands on, and keep records of whether the ram is compatible or not.

Ram model numbers contain its make up. That means heatsink design, color, rgb, as well as speed, Cas, kit, size etc. If you test 3200MHz Cas 14 rgb 2x8Gb Trident-Z, it's exactly the same Samsung B-die as the 3200MHz Cas 14 Camo 2x8Gb Trident-Z. The only difference being the color/rgb, but that change affects the model number. So if you find the RGB is tested on a QVL, and the Camo isn't, that doesn't mean anything other than that color was picked. It's the same ram, regardless if it was 2x8Gb, 1x8Gb or 4x8Gb.

If you see Corsair LPX on a QVL, that's SkHynix ram ic's. It means every single other model and brand using those same SkHynix ic's has also been verified, and SkHynix also manufactures ram for Dell. You'd have the same chance using Dell labeled ram as Corsair LPX.

The QVL just says the board was tested as good with a variety of speeds, sizes, ic's, kits and works. It doesn't disqualify ram because it's not on the list of tested ram.

 

[zx128k]

QVL is worthless garbage. And what's worse is that ppl totally misunderstand its purpose.

The QVL is Qualified Vendor List. Not Qualified Ram List. It is not a guarantee or certification or even a statement that specific model ram will work, and ram not on the list is neither tested nor 100% compatible.

What the QVL really is is a list of ram in different kits, sizes, speeds all tested to say 'hey our board works, see we tested some ram and it was good'. The QVL qualifies the motherboard, not the ram used on it.

Makes exactly no difference whether a particular model was used or not, the ram has the same chances of working or compatibility as any other ram.

To get a true QRL, you'd have to hit up G.Skill or Crucial, who do actually test their ram extensively on every motherboard they can get their hands on, and keep records of whether the ram is compatible or not.

Ram model numbers contain its make up. That means heatsink design, color, rgb, as well as speed, Cas, kit, size etc. If you test 3200MHz Cas 14 rgb 2x8Gb Trident-Z, it's exactly the same Samsung B-die as the 3200MHz Cas 14 Camo 2x8Gb Trident-Z. The only difference being the color/rgb, but that change affects the model number. So if you find the RGB is tested on a QVL, and the Camo isn't, that doesn't mean anything other than that color was picked. It's the same ram, regardless if it was 2x8Gb, 1x8Gb or 4x8Gb.

If you see Corsair LPX on a QVL, that's SkHynix ram ic's. It means every single other model and brand using those same SkHynix ic's has also been verified, and SkHynix also manufactures ram for Dell. You'd have the same chance using Dell labeled ram as Corsair LPX.

The QVL just says the board was tested as good with a variety of speeds, sizes, ic's, kits and works. It doesn't disqualify ram because it's not on the list of tested ram.

The memory QVL is what was tested which is the motherboard/BIOS. The memory controller has to play ball as well. Normally like you state other manufactures also use the same ICs but that won't always means they will work. There can be PCB changes between kits, some kits have more components which help the kit. If the kit is not on the QVL it means the motherboard manufacture cannot tell you if it should work. I have never had issues with RAM kits in the memory QVL. Its always the kits not in the QVL I have issues with.

I have a motherboard were the highest Samsung b-die frequency for 4xDIMMs is DDR4-3600 but I was able to get DDR4-4000 via manual overclocking. Getting an unsupport kit to work can be very hard work, if you are lucky they boot at jedec standard speeds (all RAM ICs should). The BIOS has values for tuning each kit ( its more than just the RAM timings we are used to working with), if an unsupport kit has the same ICs you hope they will work with the same detection software in the BIOS. RAM ICs are binned just like CPUs are. Timings and frequencies change. Thus you take a risk.

Its more than just testing, the motherboard manufacture had to program their BIOS to detect and config. the correct timings for each bin of an IC. QVL is very important information but it has to be used correctly. My 50-cents anyway... Even if the RAM kit is on the QVL list, the CPU memory controller may not like the frequency you are trying to set. So you can get super fast DDR4-5333 RAM and not be able to run at that speed even if the motherboard can work at that frequency.

God I hate RAM issues and overclocking.

 

[Karadjgne]

If the kit is not on the QVL it means the motherboard manufacture cannot tell you if it should work.

That is fundamentally incorrect. The motherboard manufacturer cannot tell you if ANY ram will work, whether they tested or not.

It's exactly the same as mixing kits. You don't. Because even though the heatsink is identical, speeds, sizes, model number, everything on the outside is identical, the silicon the IC's are made of isn't. The physical sticks used in testing might work on the mobo, but any identical model bought from a store has the exact same chances of working as a model not tested.

The QVL qualifies the board. It's only saying that the board was tested with several different OEMs at claimed speeds, kits, sizes, and worked with no issue. Has Zero to do with the actual model.

 

[zx128k]

That is fundamentally incorrect. The motherboard manufacturer cannot tell you if ANY ram will work, whether they tested or not.

It's exactly the same as mixing kits. You don't. Because even though the heatsink is identical, speeds, sizes, model number, everything on the outside is identical, the silicon the IC's are made of isn't. The physical sticks used in testing might work on the mobo, but any identical model bought from a store has the exact same chances of working as a model not tested.

The QVL qualifies the board. It's only saying that the board was tested with several different OEMs at claimed speeds, kits, sizes, and worked with no issue. Has Zero to do with the actual model.

If the RAM is tested on the board and works, then if the kit doesn't boot its not the motherboard (if the motherboard works). If you get a kit outside of the memory QVL there is no warrenty to work with the motherboard. Memory controller on the CPU has to support the frequency you want. Say you get for example a kit with e-die and the motherboard doesn't know want that IC is and thus can't go above jedec. If its not in the QVL then its your problem, you can manually set it up and enter all the settings yourself and if you can't get it to work then buy a kit on the QVL.

The motherboard provides the training software and traces only. The QVL is a good guide as to what will work. I have always used the QVL and never had an issue. This forum is full of people that don't bother using it correctly and having RAM issues. If you don't agree thats fine, I could be wrong too but lets not fall out over it. We both have the same goal of helping people get their PC's working.

 

[Karadjgne]

If you get a kit outside of the memory QVL there is no warrenty to work with the motherboard.

There's no warranty, period. Regardless of whether the ram works or not, on the QVL or not. If you try and RMA a motherboard and say the ram was on the QVL but didn't work, the vendor will still claim it to be a ram issue and not a motherboard issue unless you can prove multiple kits do not work and multiple cpus do not work.

Say you get for example a kit with e-die and the motherboard doesn't know want that IC is and thus can't go above jedec. If its not in the QVL then its your problem,

Motherboards do not know what IC bin is. And don't care. If xpm/DOCP is an option, it's available. It's listed with the jedec. If for whatever reason it will not go above jedec, it's a ram issue, not a QVL issue or motherboard issue.

The QVL has absolutely nothing to do with the ram other than qualify the motherboard to run those speeds.
F4-3200C14D-32GTZKW
F4-3200C14D-32GTZSW
Those are identical in every way. Same binned Samsung B-die IC' s, 14-14-14-34, same vendor, same size, same 2x16Gb. The ONLY difference is the GTZSW is Silver heatsink with White stripe and the GTZKW is Black heatsink with a White stripe. According to your logic, if the GTZKW was on the QVL and the GTZSW wasn't, then any issue would be 'your problem' since obviously the mobo doest like Silver heatsink ram, even though it cannot tell the difference since everything else is identical.

No. You are incorrect. The only thing about the ram on the QVL is that the mobo vendor tested 3200MHz 2x16Gb Samsung IC's, and the mobo worked. It does not matter if it was the GTZSW or GTZKW, they happened to only test one kit.

Theres over 3000 different model numbers just in the G.Skill Trident-Z DDR4 lineup. Add those to the RipJaws, Aries, value lines, then multiply all those by all the Kingston, Adata, Crucial, Patriot, Corsair and hundred other vendors and you'd have a QVL that was thousands of pages long, using millions of sticks of ram, costing a small fortune, that'd take thousands of manhours to test and compile and would have to be done for every single motherboard in the vendors lineup.

Which they do not do because it's absolutely pointless, they aren't trying to qualify the ram, they just use enough ram to say that the motherboard works at a rated speed.

 

[zx128k]

There's no warranty, period. Regardless of whether the ram works or not, on the QVL or not. If you try and RMA a motherboard and say the ram was on the QVL but didn't work, the vendor will still claim it to be a ram issue and not a motherboard issue unless you can prove multiple kits do not work and multiple cpus do not work.

Motherboards do not know what IC bin is. And don't care. If xpm/DOCP is an option, it's available. It's listed with the jedec. If for whatever reason it will not go above jedec, it's a ram issue, not a QVL issue or motherboard issue.

The QVL has absolutely nothing to do with the ram other than qualify the motherboard to run those speeds.
F4-3200C14D-32GTZKW
F4-3200C14D-32GTZSW
Those are identical in every way. Same binned Samsung B-die IC' s, 14-14-14-34, same vendor, same size, same 2x16Gb. The ONLY difference is the GTZSW is Silver heatsink with White stripe and the GTZKW is Black heatsink with a White stripe. According to your logic, if the GTZKW was on the QVL and the GTZSW wasn't, then any issue would be 'your problem' since obviously the mobo doest like Silver heatsink ram, even though it cannot tell the difference since everything else is identical.

No. You are incorrect. The only thing about the ram on the QVL is that the mobo vendor tested 3200MHz 2x16Gb Samsung IC's, and the mobo worked. It does not matter if it was the GTZSW or GTZKW, they happened to only test one kit.

Theres over 3000 different model numbers just in the G.Skill Trident-Z DDR4 lineup. Add those to the RipJaws, Aries, value lines, then multiply all those by all the Kingston, Adata, Crucial, Patriot, Corsair and hundred other vendors and you'd have a QVL that was thousands of pages long, using millions of sticks of ram, costing a small fortune, that'd take thousands of manhours to test and compile and would have to be done for every single motherboard in the vendors lineup.

Which they do not do because it's absolutely pointless, they aren't trying to qualify the ram, they just use enough ram to say that the motherboard works at a rated speed.

If the RAM is not in the QVL I have never been able to return the motherboard. If the RAM is in the QVL and works in another board. I have been able to RMA the motherboard. Its hard for it to be a motherboard issue because the motherboard mostly just provides traces between the DIMM slot and the CPU. This is the issue too with RAM not in the QVL. Basically there is signalling problems and the rated speed won't work. This is what the QVL tests. There is a point the setting can't be reliably detected.

DDR4, the fourth generation of DDR SDRAM technology, is the latest and greatest SDRAM standard and will continue to be until the fifth generation is released. The new standard features a point-to-point architecture that offers superior timing margins. In theory, this should make signal integrity easier to achieve since the designer has more leeway in routing and length matching of the different bit, clock and address lines, assuming operation at the same data rates. But most real-world designs are going to take advantage of DDR4’s ability to double the maximum rate and in this case routability will actually be considerably more challenging than with DDR3.

Overcoming Crosstalk

The higher data rates of DDR4 increase the edge rate which in turn increases the propensity for crosstalk. A general rule of thumb is to space out adjacent signal traces at least three times the trace width in order to minimize coupling effects. But it’s often difficult to implement such large trace spacing, especially on smaller PCBs such as those used in smartphones. This conundrum is increased by the fact that SDRAM uses a source synchronous clocking scheme in which all the signals in each signaling group propagate in one direction at the same time. In cases where large trace spacing cannot be achieved, the next best choice is typically to route these traces on stripline – inner PCB layers – instead of microstrip – the outer layer. This is because one side of microstrip does not have a power plane, resulting in greater dispersion of electromagnetic waves which in turn leads to a greater propensity for crosstalk to occur.

Avoiding Vias When Practical

But nothing is simple in PCB design and routing on inner layers can also create complications when DDR4 signals travel through vias from one layer of a PCB to another. Capacitance and losses in the vias can produce signal integrity problems, especially in the short stubs formed by the extension of the vias plating through to the other side of the PCB. One approach to address this problem is to minimize layer changes by routing mainly in the outer layers to avoid layer changes. But since, as mentioned earlier, routing on the outer layer increases the tendency towards crosstalk, other measures may be necessary. For example, backdrilling with numerically controlled drills to reduce the via stub length can significantly lower the bit error rate of the interconnect.

Tune the Silicon to the Board

Cases where designers have control over the silicon provide an additional avenue to address potential DDR4 problems. Devices such as field programmable gate arrays (FPGAs) enable engineers to move pins around to reduce trace lengths. While ICs, packages and PCBs are typically designed with point tools whose interface requires time-consuming manual processes, a new integrated 3D chip/package board co-design environment enables engineers to see the IC, package and PCB simultaneously in one view to optimize tradeoffs between the pin placement and PCB routing, among other things. This new approach makes it much easier to, for example, swap pins between banks, to achieve better length control.

Some kits won't work because they are not tune for the board.

here see avoiding ddr4 layout problems. Not all RAM kits are the same PCB wise. Some seek to improve the signal, thus perform better by adding things like capacitors and better PCB designs. PCB routing matters for the kit to work at its rated speeds. Both the motherboard and RAM PCB. The pins layout on the RAM ICs matter as well, this affects length control. This is part of what the memory QVL tests with the board.

The wrong kit may never work at its rated speed, no matter what you change. The CPU still has a role in this but with a modest RAM overclock, I have never had a issue if the RAM kit is in the QVL. This is why with the fastest DDR4 speeds the motherboard may support this with one or two IC types on the RAM. Why the more expensive the board the better the RAM overclocking support.

We can get luckly most of the time as kits have the same ICs and very close PCB layouts with the ones in the QVL from other manufactures.

 

[Karadjgne]

The ram on the QVL is not meant to be specific. It's not tested as specific, it is not chosen because it has superior caps or pcb. It's not chosen other than by what the tech happens to grab out of the bin.

Justify it all you want to, you miss the point. It's a Qualified Vendor List, not a Qualified Ram List. The ram tested is totally irrelevant except to qualify the motherboard.

There's plenty of ppl with ram issues, brand new pc's, and the ram was on the QVL. It's absolutely No guarantee of Anything other than the board working at the rams rated speeds, kits and sizes.

Samsung Group, Sony Corporation, Toshiba, SK Hynix, Micron Technology, Intel, Transcend Information, Fujitsu Microelectronics Inc. , NXP, and Broadcom. That's who makes ram. Out of that handful, 3 (Samsung, SkHynix, Micron) make up 95% of ram in pc's. The name on the heatsink is irrelevant, the same IC's are used by multiple vendors. The only differences being the particular caps used and pcb.

And if you rip the silver heatsink off a G.Skill F4-3200C14D-32GTZSW and the black heatsink off a F4-3200C14D-32GTZKW, there's Nobody who could tell you which was which since they are identical in every single way. The model number is the Only difference and Only because of the heatsink color. So one being on the QVL and not the other is totally moot.

The only purpose of the QVL is to prove the motherboard can support the rated ram speeds, Not to say that certain ram is verified to work and other ram is not.

 

[zx128k]

Some of what you state is true but its not all true. Many of the kits have different timings and because of say trace length for example. They won't be stable. So not every kit will work at the rated speed. This is why the more expensive boards support better RAM speeds. They take their time making sure that the trace lengths are as short as possible and that signal strength is maintained. They have the best support for all the different ICs and speeds. The BIOS is better tuned to train a vast array of different ICs and timings.

With the cheaper boards its not the same. This is why people have RAM issues and its nearly always a kit not in the memory QVL. Sometimes a kit can't reach its rated speeds and timings. Most of the time it seems to be a BIOS issue. The BIOS just can't get to times correct and voltages. I manually tuned DDR4-4000 with 4xDIMM on a motherboard who's QVL doesn't list my kit and has no 4xDIMM kits above DDR4-3600. I got DDR4-3600 XMP to work but DDR4-4000 and above was a pain. I was able to get DDR4-4200 to boot but it takes so much time to tune RAM manually.

XMP is just the manual timings and normally just vDIMM. There are other voltages and timings the BIOS has to auto detect. This would be a good target for problems with other kits. The memory controller is a big part of this as well. The BIOS has to detect the right IMC voltage. With my CPU its VCCSA and VCCIO. It autos 1.58 volts for the VCCSA. 1.4 volts with stock xmp.

This is why most kits work, the BIOS just uses lots of voltage. I have 1.35volts set at the moment. This thus forces me to use 1.3 volts VCCIO. The BIOS is a big deal for memory support. Just my opinion, you don't have to agree. Just sharing what I think.

 

[Karadjgne]

So not every kit will work at the rated speed.

Every kit is guaranteed by the factory to run at its rated XMP/DOCP speeds if the motherboard/cpu supports that speed and kit.

This is why the more expensive boards support better RAM speeds.

All boards with the same chipset have the same ability to support any given speed. The more expensive boards generally run T-topography and are better at overclocking any given speed past its XMP settings at a reasonable voltage and timings. Cheaper boards use Daisy chain, so aren't as good at OC, but will still be able to run ram at its rated XMP speeds.

The BIOS is better tuned to train a vast array of different ICs and timings.

The bios is the exact same for any given vendor, it's written by Award or Phoenix etc for the vendor per chipset. The Difference in bios per board is the user choices and model specific components, but the core bios is the same.

I manually tuned DDR4-4000 with 4xDIMM on a motherboard who's QVL doesn't list my kit and has no 4xDIMM kits above DDR4-3600

The only reason the QVL doesn't go higher is because vendors do not update the QVL, at the time that board was released, 3600 was the fastest commercially available ram, and even then might have been a prototype. Very rarely do they ever update any info whatsoever, any updates are relegated to bios updates and chipset driver updates. They do not retest the boards with newer and higher speed ram. At a certain point in time, they stop All updates as it's cost prohibitive to revisit older architecture

 

[zx128k]

Every kit is guaranteed by the factory to run at its rated XMP/DOCP speeds if the motherboard/cpu supports that speed and kit.

All boards with the same chipset have the same ability to support any given speed. The more expensive boards generally run T-topography and are better at overclocking any given speed past its XMP settings at a reasonable voltage and timings. Cheaper boards use Daisy chain, so aren't as good at OC, but will still be able to run ram at its rated XMP speeds.

The bios is the exact same for any given vendor, it's written by Award or Phoenix etc for the vendor per chipset. The Difference in bios per board is the user choices and model specific components, but the core bios is the same.

The only reason the QVL doesn't go higher is because vendors do not update the QVL, at the time that board was released, 3600 was the fastest commercially available ram, and even then might have been a prototype. Very rarely do they ever update any info whatsoever, any updates are relegated to bios updates and chipset driver updates. They do not retest the boards with newer and higher speed ram. At a certain point in time, they stop All updates as it's cost prohibitive to revisit older architecture

Not every CPU IMC will run a kit at xmp if the frequency or timings are too high. Also not every motherboard can run very high DDR4 frequencies like DDR4-5333. If you look at BIOS updates you will see memory compatibility improvements.

Before that my system wouldn't boot reliably at anything above 2666Mhz and I haven't seen anything above 2933. With a new BIOS however I can boot with up to 3333Mhz, It's not very stable though so Currently I'm maximazing timings at 3000Mhz. My RAM is 2x8GB 3000MHz CL15 Corsair vengeance LPX, hynix die. source

Memory QVL is very useful.

One BIOS update for my board did the following.

1. Improve memory compatibility
2. Improve system stability

I have no wish to futher hyjack the thread with this but I think you can see were I am coming from at least.

 

[kerberos_20]

bios update with increased ram combatibility means lower bandwith in most cases as sub timings gets loose, slowing down ram improves compatibility
youll get your ram speed but at lower bus bandwith efficiency/higher latencies

 

[Karadjgne]

Not every CPU IMC will run a kit at xmp if the frequency or timings are too high

Which has exactly Nothing to do with the Ram. Ram is guaranteed to run at its XMP/DOCP rated settings. If the cpu imc can't support that, that's on the cpu, Not the ram.

 

[zx128k]

Which has exactly Nothing to do with the Ram. Ram is guaranteed to run at its XMP/DOCP rated settings. If the cpu imc can't support that, that's on the cpu, Not the ram.

RAM manufactures also have QVL's for motherboards. XMP website lists supported CPU's for the profile and the kit. Thus the target IMC that is likely to work.