[s] Infinite wish with gypsies ?

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Am I wrong with the following scenario or is there actually a way to get
(almost) infinite wish from gypsies:

1/ Reverse genocide some gypsies
2/ Build up your 10000 credit line with each of them (playing cards could
do the trick or pawning gems if you have a lot of them, starting with a
lot of money may halp (so you can bet 10000 straight and hopefully win the
99 game)).
3/ Read your fortune until you get the wish.
4/ Grab regular wishes from all but on gypsy.
5/ Keep one to wish for a few cursed scrolls of genocide.
6/ Rince, repeat.

If I didn't misunderstood something, that looks possible...

Hypocoristiquement,
Jym.
 
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Jym wrote:
> 1/ Reverse genocide some gypsies
> 2/ Build up your 10000 credit line with each of them (playing cards
could
> do the trick or pawning gems if you have a lot of them, starting with
a
> lot of money may halp (so you can bet 10000 straight and hopefully
win the
> 99 game)).
> 3/ Read your fortune until you get the wish.
> 4/ Grab regular wishes from all but on gypsy.
> 5/ Keep one to wish for a few cursed scrolls of genocide.
> 6/ Rince, repeat.

I've played very little Slash'em so far (so all of this is fairly
unreliable), but I think you'd be hindered by the "instant death"
result, which I *think* is statistically about as likely from a gypsy
as getting a wish. I assume life saving would get you out of that, but
that's a lot of amulets to burn through.

I don't think extinction applies to reverse genocide, by the way.

- John H.
 
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John H. <JohnWH@gmail.com> wrote:
> Jym wrote:
>> 1/ Reverse genocide some gypsies
>> 2/ Build up your 10000 credit line with each of them (playing cards
>> could do the trick or pawning gems if you have a lot of them,
>> starting with a lot of money may halp (so you can bet 10000 straight
>> and hopefully win the 99 game)).
>> 3/ Read your fortune until you get the wish.
>> 4/ Grab regular wishes from all but on gypsy.
>> 5/ Keep one to wish for a few cursed scrolls of genocide.
>> 6/ Rince, repeat.
>
> I've played very little Slash'em so far (so all of this is fairly
> unreliable), but I think you'd be hindered by the "instant death"
> result

Which does nothing if you have MR. Also, if you read the spoilers, it is
very possible to know when you are going to win a particular game, so you
can get credit extremely quickly. Perhaps reverse genocided gypsies should
be modified to act like they had already given their one wish?


--
-JH
 
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On 2005-03-12, Jym <moyen@loria.fr> wrote:
> Am I wrong with the following scenario or is there actually a way to get
> (almost) infinite wish from gypsies:
>
> 1/ Reverse genocide some gypsies
> 2/ Build up your 10000 credit line with each of them (playing cards could
> do the trick or pawning gems if you have a lot of them, starting with a
> lot of money may halp (so you can bet 10000 straight and hopefully win the
> 99 game)).
> 3/ Read your fortune until you get the wish.
> 4/ Grab regular wishes from all but on gypsy.
> 5/ Keep one to wish for a few cursed scrolls of genocide.
> 6/ Rince, repeat.
>

You'll run out of gypsies at 120. Although, you will probably
get bored, or run out of things that you want sooner than that.

--
Andrew D. Hilton
UPenn Phd Student
 
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> I don't think extinction applies to reverse genocide, by the way.

It does in vanilla.
 
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On 2005-03-12, Benjamin Schieder <blindcoder@scavenger.homeip.net> wrote:
>> I don't think extinction applies to reverse genocide, by the way.
>
> It does in vanilla.

It does in slashem too..

--
Andrew D. Hilton
UPenn Phd Student
 
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On Sat, 12 Mar 2005, Andrew D. Hilton wrote:

> On 2005-03-12, Jym <moyen@loria.fr> wrote:
> > Am I wrong with the following scenario or is there actually a way to get
> > (almost) infinite wish from gypsies:
> >
> > 1/ Reverse genocide some gypsies
> > 2/ Build up your 10000 credit line with each of them (playing cards could
> > do the trick or pawning gems if you have a lot of them, starting with a
> > lot of money may halp (so you can bet 10000 straight and hopefully win the
> > 99 game)).
> > 3/ Read your fortune until you get the wish.
> > 4/ Grab regular wishes from all but on gypsy.
> > 5/ Keep one to wish for a few cursed scrolls of genocide.
> > 6/ Rince, repeat.
> >
>
> You'll run out of gypsies at 120.

Right, forgot that reverse genocide respect extinction.

> Although, you will probably get bored,

Well, that's probably less boring than pudding farming (never tried) and
you're guaranteed to get what you want much sooner.

> or run out of things that you want sooner than that.

around 100 wishes is largly enough to grab a more than full ascension kit.
Even if it's not infinite wishes, that still looks brokenly powerfull to
me (even more than pudding farming because you can choose what you want).

Hypocoristiquement,
Jym.
 
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On Sat, 12 Mar 2005, John H. wrote:

>
> Jym wrote:
> > 1/ Reverse genocide some gypsies
> > 2/ Build up your 10000 credit line with each of them (playing cards
> could
> > do the trick or pawning gems if you have a lot of them, starting with
> a
> > lot of money may halp (so you can bet 10000 straight and hopefully
> win the
> > 99 game)).
> > 3/ Read your fortune until you get the wish.
> > 4/ Grab regular wishes from all but on gypsy.
> > 5/ Keep one to wish for a few cursed scrolls of genocide.
> > 6/ Rince, repeat.
>
> I've played very little Slash'em so far (so all of this is fairly
> unreliable), but I think you'd be hindered by the "instant death"
> result, which I *think* is statistically about as likely from a gypsy
> as getting a wish. I assume life saving would get you out of that, but
> that's a lot of amulets to burn through.

1/ You can prevent that by MR according to the gypsies spoilers on Eva's
page. (or by hallucinating or being polymorphed into an undead/demon)
2/ You can play 99 until the death is dealt away but not the Infinity,
gypsies do not shuffle their deck between 99 and fortune reading.

> I don't think extinction applies to reverse genocide, by the way.

Reverse genocide respect extinction and increment the born counter,
according to the extinctionnist FAQ.

Hypocoristiquement,
Jym.
 
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On 2005-03-13, Jym <moyen@loria.fr> wrote:
>> or run out of things that you want sooner than that.
>
> around 100 wishes is largly enough to grab a more than full ascension kit.
> Even if it's not infinite wishes, that still looks brokenly powerfull to
> me (even more than pudding farming because you can choose what you want).

Well, I had one game of in which I got 3 wands of wishing.
After wishing for all the armor you want, a magic marker or two, and
maybe a figuring of a Solar (and I guess a magic whistle if you hadnt
found one)-- anything else is pretty much just superflous...

--
Andrew D. Hilton
UPenn Phd Student
 
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On Sun, 13 Mar 2005, Andrew D. Hilton wrote:

> On 2005-03-13, Jym <moyen@loria.fr> wrote:
> >> or run out of things that you want sooner than that.
> >
> > around 100 wishes is largly enough to grab a more than full ascension kit.
> > Even if it's not infinite wishes, that still looks brokenly powerfull to
> > me (even more than pudding farming because you can choose what you want).
>
> Well, I had one game of in which I got 3 wands of wishing.
> After wishing for all the armor you want, a magic marker or two, and
> maybe a figuring of a Solar (and I guess a magic whistle if you hadnt
> found one)-- anything else is pretty much just superflous...

Absolutely.
That's why I think this "gypsies farming" technique is brokenly powerfull
if it can indeed be done. And the fact that reverse genociding gypsies
respect both extinction and increment born counter (whereas pudding
splitting doesn't (in vanilla)) is not a sufficient stop to gypsies
farming.

120 gypsies before extinction, around 5 generated per scrolls of genocide,
so you need 24 scrolls to extinct them, 1 wish per gypsy, average 2 scroll
per wish, that still leave you with a few more than 100 wish to do what
you want.

As 10 wish is generally enough to get everything you want, 100 wish would
certainly be enough to get a full ascension kit, plus an empty dungeon,
plus a lot of XPs and HPs before even leaving DL1 (if you could grab a
first gypsy, eg with a first reverse genocide so early).

And that seems far less dangerous than pudding farming since
1/ gypsy will not attack you, so you can do it right from XL 1
2/ as you're still XL 1, monsters attacking you will be smalls.
3/ as you can always wish for a few more scrolls of genocide (blessed or
not), monsters won't even be able to reach you...

I guess you can even combine gypsies farming and protection racket without
much trouble (genociding every inhabitant of the mines before going to the
priest).

Hypocoristiquement,
Jym.
 
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Jym <moyen@loria.fr> wrote:
> On Sun, 13 Mar 2005, Andrew D. Hilton wrote:
>
>> On 2005-03-13, Jym <moyen@loria.fr> wrote:
>> >> or run out of things that you want sooner than that.
>> >
>> > around 100 wishes is largly enough to grab a more than full ascension kit.
>> > Even if it's not infinite wishes, that still looks brokenly powerfull to
>> > me (even more than pudding farming because you can choose what you want).
>>
>> Well, I had one game of in which I got 3 wands of wishing.
>> After wishing for all the armor you want, a magic marker or two, and
>> maybe a figuring of a Solar (and I guess a magic whistle if you hadnt
>> found one)-- anything else is pretty much just superflous...
>
> Absolutely.
> That's why I think this "gypsies farming" technique is brokenly powerfull
> if it can indeed be done. And the fact that reverse genociding gypsies
> respect both extinction and increment born counter (whereas pudding
> splitting doesn't (in vanilla)) is not a sufficient stop to gypsies
> farming

But 120 gypsy wishes is probably slightly more powerful than 6 0:3 /oW
wishes (not counting the blessed ?charging wish).

> 120 gypsies before extinction, around 5 generated per scrolls of genocide,
> so you need 24 scrolls to extinct them, 1 wish per gypsy, average 2 scroll
> per wish, that still leave you with a few more than 100 wish to do what
> you want.

> As 10 wish is generally enough to get everything you want, 100 wish would
> certainly be enough to get a full ascension kit, plus an empty dungeon,
> plus a lot of XPs and HPs before even leaving DL1 (if you could grab a
> first gypsy, eg with a first reverse genocide so early).

Luck plays a factor, at least in 3-card monte, which is how I tend to
build my fortune.

> And that seems far less dangerous than pudding farming since
> 1/ gypsy will not attack you, so you can do it right from XL 1
> 2/ as you're still XL 1, monsters attacking you will be smalls.
> 3/ as you can always wish for a few more scrolls of genocide (blessed or
> not), monsters won't even be able to reach you...

Assuming you find a gypsy on a low dlvl (nearest likely one is Grund's
lair, IIRC). I don't recall seeing a randomly generated gypsy until
gehennom, which makes me think that they are pretty high level.
Therefore, the only way to get a gypsy at low level would be reverse
genocide, figurine, etc. (And you don't want a hostile gypsy -- they
are nasty buggers.)

> I guess you can even combine gypsies farming and protection racket without
> much trouble (genociding every inhabitant of the mines before going to the
> priest).

The gypsy that tends to hang around Grund's lair is abusable.
Otherwise, slash'em gypsies are too deep to be easily abused. (The last
gypsy or two I saw in my last game resulted in 'throw-away' wishes --
the castle wand gave me enough wishes.)

--
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is
not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they
are going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them
as they fly overhead. -- RFC 1925
 
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On Mon, 14 Mar 2005, Jesse Meyer wrote:

> Jym <moyen@loria.fr> wrote:

> Luck plays a factor, at least in 3-card monte, which is how I tend to
> build my fortune.

Yes. In 99, I'm not so sure. After a few tries (see below), i manage to
win something like 3/4 or 2/3 or 99 games I've played, thus having a
positive gain if I had played correctly.

> > And that seems far less dangerous than pudding farming since
> > 1/ gypsy will not attack you, so you can do it right from XL 1
> > 2/ as you're still XL 1, monsters attacking you will be smalls.
> > 3/ as you can always wish for a few more scrolls of genocide (blessed or
> > not), monsters won't even be able to reach you...
>
> Assuming you find a gypsy on a low dlvl (nearest likely one is Grund's
> lair, IIRC). I don't recall seeing a randomly generated gypsy until
> gehennom, which makes me think that they are pretty high level.
> Therefore, the only way to get a gypsy at low level would be reverse
> genocide, figurine, etc. (And you don't want a hostile gypsy -- they
> are nasty buggers.)

Yesterday night, the first room of the dungeon held a fountain. quaff from
it, water demon, wish.
As I wanted to try this gypsies farming thing, I asked for 3 cursed
scrolls of genocide (only get one). Reverse genocide gypsy. They are
peacfull when sumoned.

Well, after that I did silly thing with the way I start betting and loose
repetidly my money before building sufficient credit :-( I went to the
mines for more money and get killed by a unicorn while coming up to my
gypsy camp.

Maybe I should have go to explore mode (or even savescum) just to check
if this really works (trying in wizard mode is not really an option as
this works mainly with wishes...)

> > I guess you can even combine gypsies farming and protection racket without
> > much trouble (genociding every inhabitant of the mines before going to the
> > priest).
>
> The gypsy that tends to hang around Grund's lair is abusable.
> Otherwise, slash'em gypsies are too deep to be easily abused. (The last
> gypsy or two I saw in my last game resulted in 'throw-away' wishes --
> the castle wand gave me enough wishes.)

With what I did yesterday, the first gypsy summoning was done while I was
still at XL1 and DL1.
If gypsy farming is done while staying at XL1 (which should not be a
problem with the huge amount of armor you may wish for and the low level
of random monsters (killables by your pet)), there should be no problem
after that to go for protection racket (a pet solar will be more than
enough to clean the mines for you, and you may save a few scrolls for
nurses dancing for HPs to avoid any trouble, plus already have an
ascendable AC when you enter the mines).

Darn, I should really have done something with that game yesterday :-((

Hypocoristiquement,
Jym.
 
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On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 18:28:03 +0100, also sprach Jym <moyen@loria.fr>:

>Maybe I should have go to explore mode (or even savescum) just to check
>if this really works (trying in wizard mode is not really an option as
>this works mainly with wishes...)

Why not _start_ in explore mode (with the command-line switch)? You'll
get a /oWishing, so you can get your genocide scrolls right away (and
some seed money to get started).

--
Keiran
 
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On Thu, 17 Mar 2005, Keiran wrote:

> On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 18:28:03 +0100, also sprach Jym <moyen@loria.fr>:
>
> >Maybe I should have go to explore mode (or even savescum) just to check
> >if this really works (trying in wizard mode is not really an option as
> >this works mainly with wishes...)
>
> Why not _start_ in explore mode (with the command-line switch)? You'll
> get a /oWishing, so you can get your genocide scrolls right away (and
> some seed money to get started).

Because in this game I didn't intend to gypsy famr/dance and just took
opportunity of the wish at time 2.

And, for the other game, because I didn't knew explore mode start with a
wand of wishing...

And also, still in the game I'm currently running, because I do not really
use savescumming for lifesaving but for money saving, allowing me to bet
all my gold in one game with a gypsy and "reload" if I happen to loose.

(Well, actually, it did save me of a nice YASD involving a cloak of magic
resistance, the 4 of trumps and the 13 of trumps (in that order), but that
has not been it's main use).

I really think that patient and cautious play (not betting all my money at
once) together with, say, 2 or 3 more wishes for gold will be sufficient
to forget savescum and do this "the right way".

Anyway, I'm just showing it works, I don't think I would have the patience
to do this right, but I'm quite sure someone else will :)

Hypocoristiquement,
Jym.