Sacrificing an opposite aligned Unicorn

[Erik]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

So I sat down, read a slew of survivability tips for characters, and
basically got to the point where I can play nethack -rationally- (as
opposed to my old maxim of "plow through everything in sight"). The RNG
must be happy with my new demeanor, because I've been treated very well.

I decided to start a Hu-L-Valk. On Dlvl 1, I came across a
cross-aligned altar (my attempt to convert it failed) and a sink (I
haven't gone back yet to tap it's ring and pudding). So far I've gotten
to Dlvl 6. I've managed to get my AC down to -4; on Dlvl5 there's a
co-aligned altar which gave me plenty of luck and Mjollnir; and on Dlvl6
I've come across a cross-aligned altar and a black unicorn. I
desperately want to sacrifice that unicorn and get protection or what
have you from Tyr. What I'm asking is a couple of questions.

1. Would I get optimal benefits from trying to convert that altar with
that unicorn?

2. Should I attempt to convert the altar with something else, then
sacrifice the unicorn on it?

3. Is there a method of coaxing the unicorn to follow me up the stairs
to Dlvl 5 where I -know- I have a co-aligned altar?

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Erik wrote:
> So I sat down, read a slew of survivability tips for characters, and
> basically got to the point where I can play nethack -rationally- (as
> opposed to my old maxim of "plow through everything in sight"). The RNG
> must be happy with my new demeanor, because I've been treated very well.
>
> I decided to start a Hu-L-Valk. On Dlvl 1, I came across a
> cross-aligned altar (my attempt to convert it failed) and a sink (I
> haven't gone back yet to tap it's ring and pudding). So far I've gotten
> to Dlvl 6. I've managed to get my AC down to -4; on Dlvl5 there's a
> co-aligned altar which gave me plenty of luck and Mjollnir; and on Dlvl6
> I've come across a cross-aligned altar and a black unicorn. I
> desperately want to sacrifice that unicorn and get protection or what
> have you from Tyr. What I'm asking is a couple of questions.
>
> 1. Would I get optimal benefits from trying to convert that altar with
> that unicorn?

No.

If the altar is cross-aligned, as in chaotic, and you sacrifice a black
unicorn on it, you get: Luck-blast, wisdom drain, wisdom abuse,
possibly guardians (demons).

If the altar is neutral, then the black unicorn will do nothing more
than make the altar chaotic, and as unusable as it originally was.

>
> 2. Should I attempt to convert the altar with something else, then
> sacrifice the unicorn on it?
>

Yes, that would be a good idea.

> 3. Is there a method of coaxing the unicorn to follow me up the stairs
> to Dlvl 5 where I -know- I have a co-aligned altar?

Not that I know of. Not that I know much.


--
____ (__)
/ \ (oo) -Shadow
|Moo. > \/
\____/

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On 2005-03-06, Erik <Famicommie@comcast.net> wrote:
> I decided to start a Hu-L-Valk. On Dlvl 1, I came across a
> cross-aligned altar (my attempt to convert it failed) and a sink (I
> haven't gone back yet to tap it's ring and pudding). So far I've gotten
> to Dlvl 6. I've managed to get my AC down to -4; on Dlvl5 there's a
> co-aligned altar which gave me plenty of luck and Mjollnir; and on Dlvl6
> I've come across a cross-aligned altar and a black unicorn. I
> desperately want to sacrifice that unicorn and get protection or what
> have you from Tyr. What I'm asking is a couple of questions.
>

You dont get protection regardless.. The best you get is if
you sac a cross aligned unicorn on a coaligned altar, then you get
alignment+5 and the sacrifice is treated as "more valuable" by 3--
i.e. it may reduce your prayer timeout slightly more, de-anger your
god slightly more, give you a little more luck, etc depending on whatever
the sac outcome is (no effects on artifact gift chance though).
(You get the value +3 anyways if the unicorn is not your alignment,
and not the altar's alignment- but i dont think value matters unless
the altar is converted anyways)

> 1. Would I get optimal benefits from trying to convert that altar with
> that unicorn?
>
No- it wont really make any difference UNLESS that altar is aligned
with the unicorn (i.e. since its black, if the altar is chaotic)- then
the god for that altar will get REALLY mad at you- probably disentigrate
you or something.


> 2. Should I attempt to convert the altar with something else, then
> sacrifice the unicorn on it?
>

If you are in need of some alignment, then it might be a good idea.
If the altar is the same alignment as the unicorn, then its a really good
idea.
Otherwise, I dont think it matters toooo much...

> 3. Is there a method of coaxing the unicorn to follow me up the stairs
> to Dlvl 5 where I -know- I have a co-aligned altar?

Unicorns dont really like to be near you anyways- so this would be hard.


--
Andrew D. Hilton
UPenn Phd Student

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Shadow wrote:

[ Lawful sacrificing black unicorn on cross-aligned altar: ]

> If the altar is neutral, then the black unicorn will do nothing more
> than make the altar chaotic, and as unusable as it originally was.

Is that true?

>> 2. Should I attempt to convert the altar with something else, then
>> sacrifice the unicorn on it?

> Yes, that would be a good idea.

Once an altar has been converting, all valid sacrifices are equally good
for getting gifts and other such results. The sort of sacrifice only
matters if you're trying to mollify an angry god, I believe.

--
Boudewijn Waijers (kroisos at home.nl).

The garden of happiness is surrounded by a wall so low only children
can look over it. - "the Orphanage of Hits", former Dutch radio show.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On 2005-03-07, Boudewijn Waijers <kroisos@REMOVETHISWORD.home.nl> wrote:
> Shadow wrote:
>
> [ Lawful sacrificing black unicorn on cross-aligned altar: ]
>
>> If the altar is neutral, then the black unicorn will do nothing more
>> than make the altar chaotic, and as unusable as it originally was.
>
> Is that true?
>

Testing in wizmode shows that a lawful character saccing a black
unicorn on a neutral altar behaves just like any other altar
conversion attempt...

--
Andrew D. Hilton
UPenn Phd Student

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Mon, 7 Mar 2005, Boudewijn Waijers wrote:

> Shadow wrote:

> >> 2. Should I attempt to convert the altar with something else, then
> >> sacrifice the unicorn on it?
>
> > Yes, that would be a good idea.
>
> Once an altar has been converting, all valid sacrifices are equally good
> for getting gifts and other such results. The sort of sacrifice only
> matters if you're trying to mollify an angry god, I believe.

According to Dion Nicolaas' spoiler on sacrifice:
Sacrificing unicorns
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you sacrifice a unicorn corpse on an altar of the unicorn's
alignment, your wisdom goes down by one point, regardless of which god
the altar belongs to. If you sacrifice a unicorn of a different
alignment on an altar of your god, it's a very good action. Your
alignment goes up by 5.

If you sacrifice a unicorn of your alignment on another god's altar,
you are converted immediately. Again, this will not work on Moloch's
altars, since you can never become unaligned yourself. If you try
nevertheless, your god will become angry again.

After the added effects of the unicorn, the sacrifice is handled as any
other sacrifice. However, the unicorn corpse' value as a sacrifice will
be increased by 3 if your action was good, but set to one if you
converted yourself. If you sacrificed a unicorn corpse on an altar of
the same alignment, its value is decreased by 5.
-----------------------------

So yes, sacrificing unicorns is better than other sacrifice, especially if
you need alignement (who doesn't ?)

Concerning the third question of Erik about luring the unicorn to follow
him on the upper level where the co-aligned altar waits, I must mention
that it is possible to actually carry an unicorn corpse on the upper
level. But you will probably need to drop almost everything else, so this
is not always a good idea (plus, you will still be burdened or worst, so
it is possible that the corpse rot *before* you reach the altar, bad
idea...)

Hypocoristiquement,
Jym.

 

[seraphim]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Jym <moyen@loria.fr> wrote in
news😛ine.LNX.4.51.0503071351470.19558@hagen.loria.fr:

> So yes, sacrificing unicorns is better than other sacrifice,
> especially if you need alignement (who doesn't ?)

Anyone who has been killing hostile monsters for a few thousand turns.
Anyone who is post quest and hasn't been killing peacefuls.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Jym wrote:
>> [effects of uncorn saccing on various altars]
> [carrying a unicorn corpse up to a higher level]
> it is possible that the corpse rot *before* you reach the altar, bad
> idea...)

You can always turn a rotten corpse into a fresh one with a wand of
undead turning and some added slayage.

Hmmm... if you didn't put the unicorn's horn down with the corpse
before zapping UT, would you end up with a horse rather than a unicorn?
Currently unable to wiz-test, or I'd do so.

Did The Dev Team Think Of That?

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Heikki Moilanen wrote:
> dogscoff@eudoramail.com wrote:
>
> > Hmmm... if you didn't put the unicorn's horn down with the corpse
> > before zapping UT, would you end up with a horse rather than a
unicorn?
> > Did The Dev Team Think Of That?

> They did.
> Wiz-tested: Killed an unicorn, took the horn, wand of undead turning,
> killed it again.
> Result:
> The gray unicorn's recently regrown horn crumbles to dust.
> Happens even if you don't take the horn from the corpse. The horn
probably
> is separated from the body upon death...

Thanks for satisfying my curiosity. TDTRDTOE.
I have to say though that their solution to the problem strikes me as a
little... well... nusatisfactory. Having it so that the horn must be
present for with the corpse to resurrect a unicorn seems a little more
logical to me. It seems as though an obvious special case is being made
of unicorns and (presumably) other harvestable corpses: Do dragons &
scales/ worms & teeth behave the same?

I think it would be cool if corpses with usable parts actually had to
be cut up by the player with a bladed weapon, or left until the meat
had rotted away to reveal the useful object. This would also mean that
if you want to sacrifice a unicorn corpse (rather than a hornless
unicorn corpse, ie a horse), you have to sacrifice the horn as well,
introducing another challenging decision to the early game. Ditto with
dragons and worms- you can't have your cake and (allow your deity to)
eat it.

Of course this raises problems: It's a fairly simple and logical step
from hornless unicorn->horse, but what would happens to dragons and
worms after you've asset-stripped them? Perhaps butchering those
corpses for their resources should leave nothing but ruined meat
unsuitable for sacrifice, resurrection or consumption, but that seems
just as much a special case as the "recently re-grown horn" does: A
little dentistry is hardly enough to desecrate the massive body of a
worm, especially in light of the steaming holes and gaping wounds no
doubt left in the carcass by the battle that killed it. Ok, you could
just create two new objects: "skinned dragon corpse" and "toothless
worm corpse" with slightly reduced nutritional/ sacrificial values, but
then how would they interact with UT and tinning kits and probably a
whole load of other stuff I've probably forgotten?
"The toothless worm bites! --more--
It doesn't hurt much."
"G- An uncursed tin of naked dragon meat."

I think I'm beginning to see why the devteam went for the
implementation they did.

*sigh*

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Seraphim wrote:
> Jym <moyen@loria.fr> wrote:
>>So yes, sacrificing unicorns is better than other sacrifice,
>>especially if you need alignement (who doesn't ?)
>
> Anyone who has been killing hostile monsters for a few thousand turns.
> Anyone who is post quest and hasn't been killing peacefuls.

Any non-pacifist after several hundred turns of normal play.

1KB

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On 8 Mar 2005 08:33:57 -0800, dogscoff@eudoramail.com wrote:

>I think it would be cool if corpses with usable parts actually had to
>be cut up by the player with a bladed weapon, or left until the meat
>had rotted away to reveal the useful object. This would also mean that
>if you want to sacrifice a unicorn corpse (rather than a hornless
>unicorn corpse, ie a horse), you have to sacrifice the horn as well,
>introducing another challenging decision to the early game. Ditto with
>dragons and worms- you can't have your cake and (allow your deity to)
>eat it.

Not to mention the fact that it'd be a darnsight more dangerous to try
to eat a freshly-killed unicorn/worm/dragon if the non-food parts
didn't fall off of the meat.

--
Keiran

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

dogscoff@eudoramail.com wrote:

> Hmmm... if you didn't put the unicorn's horn down with the corpse
> before zapping UT, would you end up with a horse rather than a unicorn?

> Did The Dev Team Think Of That?

They did.

Wiz-tested: Killed an unicorn, took the horn, wand of undead turning,
killed it again.

Result:

The gray unicorn's recently regrown horn crumbles to dust.

Happens even if you don't take the horn from the corpse. The horn probably
is separated from the body upon death...

-Heikki

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

dogscoff@eudoramail.com wrote:

> You can always turn a rotten corpse into a fresh one with a wand of
> undead turning and some added slayage.
>
> Hmmm... if you didn't put the unicorn's horn down with the corpse
> before zapping UT, would you end up with a horse rather than a unicorn?

No, because a unicorn is not a horse with a horn on its head. In some
ways, unicorns are more like deer or goats than like horses. See, e.g.,
<http://www.hum.au.dk/romansk/borges/vakalo/zf/html/the_unicorn.html>.

Richard

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On 3/8/05 3:20 AM, Adam Borowski wrote:
> Seraphim wrote:
>
>>Jym <moyen@loria.fr> wrote:
>>
>>>So yes, sacrificing unicorns is better than other sacrifice,
>>>especially if you need alignement (who doesn't ?)
>>
>>Anyone who has been killing hostile monsters for a few thousand turns.
>>Anyone who is post quest and hasn't been killing peacefuls.
>
>
> Any non-pacifist after several hundred turns of normal play.
>
Which, by the way, I consider broken. It makes alignment essentially
irrelevant throughout the whole game.

I would reduce the alignment bonus for killing cross-aligned monsters
(perhaps making it a percentage chance of gaining a point, rather than
automatically gaining one), and add in a (smaller) alignment penalty for
killing co-aligned monsters (even if not peaceful).

Alignment would still tend to go up over time, but more slowly, and
you'd actually have to pay attention to other alignment penalties. The
upshot would be that the player would have to roleplay their alignment,
at least to some degree, which would differentiate game play when
playing different alignments.

--
Kevin Wayne

"I came to Casablanca for the waters."
"Waters? What waters? We're in the desert?"
"I was misinformed."

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Kevin Wayne <killedbyafoo@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I would reduce the alignment bonus for killing cross-aligned monsters
>(perhaps making it a percentage chance of gaining a point, rather than
>automatically gaining one),

Suits me.

>and add in a (smaller) alignment penalty for
>killing co-aligned monsters (even if not peaceful).

No. Or at least, not unless you first come up with enough wimpy chaotic
and lawful monsters for this to not leave non-pacifist neutrals unable
to safely pray in the early game.

*rummages through monster database*

Oh! That's interesting. Hell hound and winter wolf cubs are chaotic,
but adult hell hounds and winter wolves are neutral.

Anyway, early-game (up to round about the Oracle) neutrals that are
both (a) mobile and (b) generally hostile to neutral players:
jackal, gnome, gnome lord, gnomish wizard, gnome king, rothes, giant
ants, soldier ants, grid bug, newt, gecko, iguana, lizard, fox, coyote,
quivering blob, gray ooze, violet fungus, lichen, giant ant, soldier
ant, killer bee, chickatrice, dingo, wolf, jaguar, lynx, panther, tiger,
ochre jelly, rock piercer, iron piercer, sewer rat, giant rat, rabid
rat, rock mole, cave spider, centipede, giant spider, scorpion, and
probably more that I can no longer be bothered to finish finding.
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
My roguelike games page (including my BSD-licenced roguelike) can be found at:
http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~mpread/roguelikes.html
NP: W.A.S.P. - L.O.V.E. Machine

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Wed, 9 Mar 2005, Kevin Wayne wrote:

>
>
> On 3/8/05 3:20 AM, Adam Borowski wrote:
> > Seraphim wrote:
> >
> >>Jym <moyen@loria.fr> wrote:
> >>
> >>>So yes, sacrificing unicorns is better than other sacrifice,
> >>>especially if you need alignement (who doesn't ?)
> >>
> >>Anyone who has been killing hostile monsters for a few thousand turns.
> >>Anyone who is post quest and hasn't been killing peacefuls.
> >
> >
> > Any non-pacifist after several hundred turns of normal play.
> >
> Which, by the way, I consider broken. It makes alignment essentially
> irrelevant throughout the whole game.
>
> I would reduce the alignment bonus for killing cross-aligned monsters
> (perhaps making it a percentage chance of gaining a point, rather than
> automatically gaining one), and add in a (smaller) alignment penalty for
> killing co-aligned monsters (even if not peaceful).
>
> Alignment would still tend to go up over time, but more slowly, and
> you'd actually have to pay attention to other alignment penalties. The
> upshot would be that the player would have to roleplay their alignment,
> at least to some degree, which would differentiate game play when
> playing different alignments.

Agree. Playing a non-vegetarian monk should be hard. The -1 penalty to
alignement each time you eat meat is not really important and I ascended a
monl who ate every giants he killed, plus two or three floating eyes (lost
telepathy due to murders), plus black dragon, plus a few trolls, plus a
few winter wolf for early cold resistance. I had no trouble neither for
the quest nor from my god. I think I should have had more trouble.

Hypocoristiquement,
Jym.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Kevin Wayne wrote:

> Which, by the way, I consider broken. It makes alignment essentially
> irrelevant throughout the whole game.

It's currently only relevant at the start of the game, given that your
maximum alignment goes up during play.

> I would reduce the alignment bonus for killing cross-aligned monsters
> (perhaps making it a percentage chance of gaining a point, rather than
> automatically gaining one), and add in a (smaller) alignment penalty
> for killing co-aligned monsters (even if not peaceful).

I don't like the latter suggestion at all. You shouldn't be penalised
for self-defence, no matter the alignment of the creature that attacks
you.

--
Boudewijn Waijers (kroisos at home.nl).

The garden of happiness is surrounded by a wall so low only children
can look over it. - "the Orphanage of Hits", former Dutch radio show.