Sculpting Steel and Sunburst

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

From Jeff Jordan on DCIJUDGE-L:

"Sculpting Steel cannot get counters by copying Sunburst.
Sunburst is a *spell* ability. Like Scry, it is tacked on
to the end of a resolving spell, just before the "final
step" of spell resolution, which is to put the card in the
graveyard (for Instants or Sorceries) or into play (for
Artifact, Creature, and Enchantment spells). In the case
of Sunburst, if the spell is an artifact or creature
spell, it modifies how the card will get put into play.
If the nature of what is being put into play changes
after this final step starts, like if the permanent will
have Sunburst or have a different type then the spell
did, that will not cause resolution to go back and
re-apply spell effects like Sunburst."

I saw a different answer here a few days ago - I just thought I'd check and
see what the story is.

Cheers,
Grant

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

"Grant Anderson" <gpsanderson@hotmail.com> writes:
> From Jeff Jordan on DCIJUDGE-L:
> "Sculpting Steel cannot get counters by copying Sunburst.
[...]
>
> I saw a different answer here a few days ago - I just thought I'd check and
> see what the story is.

That answer on DCIJUDGE-L (available publicly from
http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0405d&L=dcijudge-l&F=&S=&P=9111)
is the official answer on that question for now. It may change in the
future, but it's the Correct Answer Because They Said So in the meantime.

--
Peter C.
"... Had this been an actual emergency, we would have fled in terror,
and you would not have been informed."

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Grant Anderson <gpsanderson@hotmail.com> wrote:
>From Jeff Jordan on DCIJUDGE-L:
>
>"Sculpting Steel cannot get counters by copying Sunburst.

It is Being Discussed. At my last look a day and a half ago, Jeff was alone
on his side of the discussion, and several other people were trying to figure
out where this had appeared from.

>I saw a different answer here a few days ago - I just thought I'd check and
>see what the story is.

As far as I can tell my answer (and Rune's and Pao's and a couple other
netreps') was / is correct; but we are looking _closely_ at it to make sure
of that. Updates as events warrant.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Wed, 26 May 2004 16:19:37 -0400, pete@cooper.homedns.org (Peter
Cooper Jr.) wrote:

>"Grant Anderson" <gpsanderson@hotmail.com> writes:
>> From Jeff Jordan on DCIJUDGE-L:
>> "Sculpting Steel cannot get counters by copying Sunburst.
>[...]
>>
>> I saw a different answer here a few days ago - I just thought I'd check and
>> see what the story is.
>
>That answer on DCIJUDGE-L (available publicly from
>http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0405d&L=dcijudge-l&F=&S=&P=9111)
>is the official answer on that question for now. It may change in the
>future, but it's the Correct Answer Because They Said So in the meantime.

And now it appears that they changed their minds again...
I hope that they keep this third iteration of the rules - I think it's
the most intuitive so far.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/rh126

**
You play Sculpting Steel, paying with three different colors of mana,
and choose to copy a Skyreach Manta. What counters do you expect
Sculpting Steel to receive when it comes into play?

*Three +1/+1 counters, because it's copying an artifact creature.
36.8%
*The same counters as the Skyreach Manta it copied. 32.1%
*No counters, because the spell itself doesn't have the Sunburst
ability. 29.5%
*Three charge counters, because it isn't a creature card itself. 1.6%

The right answer for this was "no counters" – because as written,
sunburst is an effect of a spell, not of a card coming into play. It
only happens if the resolving spell has the Sunburst ability, and
Sculpting Steel does not have sunburst.

However, to clarify the interaction between Sculpting Steel and
sunburst, the Rules Team has modified the rules for sunburst. If you
play Sculpting Steel to copy an artifact creature with sunburst, the
copy will get +1/+1 counters based on the number of different colors
of mana used to pay Sculpting Steel's total cost. If you play
Sculpting Steel to copy a noncreature artifact with sunburst, the copy
will get charge counters based on the number of different colors of
mana used to pay Sculpting Steel's total cost.

This means that in the situation above, Skyreach Manta will get three
+1/+1 counters.

The Rules Team will release this rules update, with some other
clarifications, later this month, look for it at the Rulings and
Errata page
(http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=judge/magicrules/rulingserrata).
You should play it like this for now - the full rules text will be out
soon.
**

--
Regards
Simon Nejmann

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Simon Nejmann <snejmann@worldonline.REMOVETHIS.dk> wrote:
>>> I saw a different answer here a few days ago - I just thought I'd check and
>>> see what the story is.
>>
>>That answer on DCIJUDGE-L (available publicly from
>>http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0405d&L=dcijudge-l&F=&S=&P=9111)
>>is the official answer on that question for now. It may change in the
>>future, but it's the Correct Answer Because They Said So in the meantime.
>
>And now it appears that they changed their minds again...

Not exactly "again". Say rather that a step in the discussion got posted
before the discussion was over.

>I hope that they keep this third iteration of the rules - I think it's
>the most intuitive so far.

Rune:
>The Rules Team will release this rules update, with some other
>clarifications, later this month, look for it at the Rulings and
>Errata page.

Dave "so yes, looks like 'intuitive' wins today" DeLaney
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) writes:
> Rune (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/rh126):
> >The Rules Team will release this rules update,
[the rules update being that Sculpting Steel on a Sunburst creature
gets +1/+1 counters for the mana paid for the Steel]
> >with some other clarifications, later this month, look for it at the
> >Rulings and Errata page.
>
> Dave "so yes, looks like 'intuitive' wins today" DeLaney

Yes, it seems like the most intuitive answer for those that know the
rules, and 36.8% in his poll said it. However, 32.1% said it would get
"The same counters as the Skyreach Manta it copied." (which is what my
wife thought when I first presented her with the question as well).

This implies that even the basics of the copy rules (you get the same
text as the card, but no effects or counters on it) aren't known by
about a third of Magic players (assuming that Rune's column polls a
representative sample).

Maybe the copy cards are rare enough that this really isn't an issue,
but I'm wondering if maybe they should include reminder text or
something to try to make the copy cards more "intuitive" for the
"average" Magic player. I don't really know, I just thought that a
third of the players was a bit high for the least correct possible
answer.

--
Peter C.
"I have discovered a strange level of sleep deprivation in which I do
not randomly fall asleep and yet am completely incapable of
intelligent thought..." -- Jessi

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Peter Cooper Jr. <pete@cooper.homedns.org> wrote:
>Yes, it seems like the most intuitive answer for those that know the
>rules, and 36.8% in his poll said it. However, 32.1% said it would get
>"The same counters as the Skyreach Manta it copied." (which is what my
>wife thought when I first presented her with the question as well).

Note that that's not exactly clear as an answer - did it mean "the same
counters the Manta originally got", "the same counters the Manta has now",
or possibly "the same counters the Manta has now - it steals the ones
the Manta has and leaves it with none"? I'm assuming here that at least
some of the people picking it meant the first one ... which is nearly the
same as one of the other answers. Which would make it more than 36.8% who
"intuitively knew" the right answer, but not all of whom knew how to phrase
it...

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Hello, Peter!
You wrote on Sat, 05 Jun 2004 21:25:22 -0400:

PCJ> This implies that even the basics of the copy rules (you get
PCJ> the same
PCJ> text as the card, but no effects or counters on it) aren't
PCJ> known by
PCJ> about a third of Magic players (assuming that Rune's column
PCJ> polls a
PCJ> representative sample).

When I went through the Comprehensive Rules, copy rules struck me as the
most complex and the hardest to memorize. Everything else can be
somehow logically organised in my head - even those layers in 418.5.
And while phasing might require a lengthy explanation, once you read
through the relevant rules, it is very easy to remember.

Regards,
Arkady.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

"Arkady Zilberberg" <arkadyz1@yahoo.com> writes:
> Hello, Peter!

Well, hello! (although that's kind of an odd attribution line)

> You wrote on Sat, 05 Jun 2004 21:25:22 -0400:
> PCJ> This implies that even the basics of the copy rules (you get
> PCJ> the same text as the card, but no effects or counters on it)
> PCJ> aren't known by about a third of Magic players (assuming that
> PCJ> Rune's column polls a representative sample).
>
> When I went through the Comprehensive Rules, copy rules struck me as
> the most complex and the hardest to memorize. Everything else can
> be somehow logically organised in my head

The basic concept (you get the original text of the object you copied,
plus any copy-effects, and spell copies copy all choices) is I think
pretty easy to get. I thought that all the details (of which there are
a lot, I'll admit) in the rest of the copy rules are there for
unambiguousness but pretty much follow from that basic premise. Then
again, I haven't played much with the older (more complicated) copy
cards. Is there a part of the rules that you find particularly
confusing?

My initial thought was to add some reminder text to the effect of
"this only gets the objects's text, and not counters or effects" to
help newer players seeing a Clone or a Sculpting Steel for the first
time. It may not be needed, as they are rares, but the mere wording
"comes into play as a copy" doesn't really describe what it does to a
player unfamiliar with the rules.

> even those layers in 418.5.

Well, you've got a better memory than me, I guess. I didn't really
manage to memorize the 8E changes, partly because the details of
continuous effect dependencies rarely come up in practice. I did look
them over before going for my judge certification at the 5D
prerelease, so I've got a vague idea of them, but I wouldn't be able
to list the layers offhand exactly correctly without looking at them.

Has anyone come up with a mnemonic or something for the post-8E
effects layers?

> And while phasing might require a lengthy explanation, once you read
> through the relevant rules, it is very easy to remember.

Agreed. Phasing is simple in concept but difficult to implement.

--
Peter C.
"If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it
would be a merrier world."
-- J. R. R. Tolkien

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Arkady Zilberberg <arkadyz1@yahoo.com> wrote:
>PCJ> This implies that even the basics of the copy rules (you get the same
>PCJ> text as the card, but no effects or counters on it) aren't known by
>PCJ> about a third of Magic players (assuming that Rune's column polls a
>PCJ> representative sample).
>
>When I went through the Comprehensive Rules, copy rules struck me as the
>most complex and the hardest to memorize. Everything else can be
>somehow logically organised in my head - even those layers in 418.5.
>And while phasing might require a lengthy explanation, once you read
>through the relevant rules, it is very easy to remember.

And yet the copy-card rules are actually the -simplest- they've ever been,
at this point in time. Be very afraid...

(And many of the special cases have to do with stuff that doesn't even
happen for any other type of effect, because generally only copy cards
can totally change _what they look like_ while in play, or coming into play,
and you have to account for the possibility of ANY other ability interacting
with them...)

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Peter Cooper Jr. <pete@cooper.homedns.org> wrote:
>I haven't played much with the older (more complicated) copy
>cards.

Note that the older copy cards are _also_ now less complex than they used
to be. (Compare Clone's original wording with its current one, for example.)
Simplifying the copy rules let them simplify the copy-card wordings somewhat
as well.

>Has anyone come up with a mnemonic or something for the post-8E
>effects layers?

Not that I know of. There's only six of them - copy, control, editing,
type-changing, Everything Else, and power-toughness, but even with that
there's confusion because "Everything Else" isn't _last_...

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.