Sculpting Steel + Sunburst

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If a Sculpting Steel copies a creature in play with Sunburst, what sort of
counters does it come into play with? Would they be charge counters because
SS is a non-creature spell, or +1/+1 counters?

 

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Tom Mathews <tommathews@xtra.co.nz> wrote:

> If a Sculpting Steel copies a creature in play with Sunburst, what sort of
> counters does it come into play with? Would they be charge counters because
> SS is a non-creature spell, or +1/+1 counters?

502.37a Sunburst is a static ability that functions as a spell is
resolving. "Sunburst" means "If this spell is a creature spell, it comes
into play with a +1/+1 counter on it for each color of mana used to pay
its cost. If this spell is a noncreature spell, it comes into play with
a charge counter on it for each color of mana used to pay its cost.".

* The type of counters depends on whether the spell is a creature or a
noncreature spell, not whether the permanent that results from that
spell will be a creature or a noncreature permanent. Even if March of
the Machines from the _Mirrodin_(TM) set is in play, noncreature
artifact spells with sunburst come into play with charge counters.

Sculpting Steel
{3}
Artifact
As Sculpting Steel comes into play, you may choose an artifact in play.
If you do, Sculpting Steel comes into play as a copy of that artifact.

Sculpting Steel is a noncreature spell, so it comes into play with a
charge counter on it for each color of mana used to pay its cost.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Sun, 23 May 2004 13:18:44 +1200, Tom Mathews <tommathews@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
>If a Sculpting Steel copies a creature in play with Sunburst, what sort of
>counters does it come into play with? Would they be charge counters because
>SS is a non-creature spell, or +1/+1 counters?

It comes into play as a copy of the other spell. This means that the Sunburst
on the copy, which it gets at the same time it finds it now has the other
spell's spell type, will see it as an artifact creature <at this point Dave's
brain kicks in and forcibly reminds him to go read the new segment of the
rulebook dealing with Sunburst> spell, or an artifact noncreature spell, as
applicable,

Sunburst applies as the spell is resolving, and specifically says that the
spell "comes into play _with_ <whatever> counters". Stuff done "as this
comes into play" or "this comes into play as" is done slightly before that,
so the Sculpting Steel will already have the Sunburst ability ... and thus
will already _be_ a copy of whatever else it's becoming ... at the time the
Sunburst ability would apply. So for Sunburst it doesn't matter that earlier
on this was a Sculpting Steel spell [though it does still look back to see
what color(s) of mana were paid for the cost of the Sculpting Steel spell,
which can be up to five with Fist of Suns helping].

So if the SS is copying an artifact creature, it becomes an artifact
creature spell as a replacement effect and comes into play -as- that spell
coming into play... and the Sunburst says "Mmmm, this many +1/+1 counters for
you".

In short: treat it just like the regular version of that Sunburst creature
at that point.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Daniel W. Johnson <panoptes@iquest.net> wrote:
>502.37a Sunburst is a static ability that functions as a spell is
>resolving. "Sunburst" means "If this spell is a creature spell, it comes
>into play with a +1/+1 counter on it for each color of mana used to pay
>its cost. If this spell is a noncreature spell, it comes into play with
>a charge counter on it for each color of mana used to pay its cost.".
>
>* The type of counters depends on whether the spell is a creature or a
>noncreature spell, not whether the permanent that results from that
>spell will be a creature or a noncreature permanent. Even if March of
>the Machines from the _Mirrodin_(TM) set is in play, noncreature
>artifact spells with sunburst come into play with charge counters.

Right ... but there's a more subtle point for SS specifically (and Copy
Artifact, Clone, and Vesuvan Doppelganger).

>Sculpting Steel >{3} >Artifact
>As Sculpting Steel comes into play, you may choose an artifact in play.
>If you do, Sculpting Steel comes into play as a copy of that artifact.
>
>Sculpting Steel is a noncreature spell, so it comes into play with a
>charge counter on it for each color of mana used to pay its cost.

SS is a noncreature spell -until it's trying to come into play-. ["But so is
one that'll be affected by March of the Machines!"] Specifically, it becomes
a copy as a replacement effect _for_ coming into play, a few steps BEFORE
continuous effects like the March's would get applied... and in particular
gets the Sunburst ability _by now being a copy of something else_ in time
for the Sunburst ability to work at all. So by the time the Sunburst ability
applies to SS, the SS is already not an SS anymore, it's a different _spell_
in the process of coming into play.

In contrast, March of the Machines doesn't even get to apply until all the
"comes into play as" / "comes into play with" / 'as this comes into play'
/ '~ comes into play tapped' stuff hsa been dealt with; continuous effects
from things already in play that make it come into play and find it's not
what it thought it was get applied only AFTER Sunburst has already told it
what kind of counters it's getting _and_ the comes-into-play event has been
modified to include coming into play with those counters.

Short version: copy effects apply before Sunburst-from-the-copy can do so;
March of the Machines/Titania's Song don't apply until after Sunburst does
its thing. The bit in the FAQ is for the latter.

Similarly, if you animate a _noncreature_ Sunburst artifact, and then Clone
_that_? It will come into play with charge counters, not with +1/+1 counters.
The Clone will copy the original, won't copy the animating effect, and will
be a noncreature artifact Sunburst spell coming into play as Sunburst gets
applied. (It may or may not find it's an artifact creature once it's _in_ play,
depending on WHAT is animating the original... but will come into play
with charge counters regardless of whether there's a March effect waiting to
apply once Sunburst is done.)

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.