Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (
More info?)
On 28 Jun 2004 04:59:22 -0700, j_me_j_you@yahoo.com (Chris
Schenectady) wrote:
>what do you get when you remove an enchantment spell card from the
>stack, without actually stopping the spell?
>
>suppose you get a Vedalken Orrery into play, then you play some
>enchantment. respond by playing Shahrazad as an instant, and in the
>subgame, use Golden Wish to remove the enchantment spell card from the
>stack in the main game.
>
>when the subgame ends, the enchantment card gets shuffled back into
>your main game library -- but the enchantment spell hasn't
>disappeared! does the cardless enchantment enter play? and if so, does
>it evaporate like a copied spell under 420.5j?
>
>obviously, this trick could work for all sorts of spells; i'm just
>using enchantments as an example.
Ok, I think you win the price for strangest/most far out (meant in a
good way) question
Personally I can see a few possible answers.
One being that the card is removed from the stack, but the game still
knows that it was there, so it resolves as normal. The next question
would then be what happens with the more or less nonexistent
enchantment... You point out 420.5j as saying that the spell copy must
evaporate, but 401.7 says that it stops being a spell when it
resolves.
So, my guess is, that if the spell-remains stay on the stack and
resolves, then it enters play as a copy of the original enchantment
and stay there, just like any other permanent.
--
420.5j A copy of a spell in a zone other than the stack ceases to
exist. A copy of a card in any zone other than the stack or the
in-play zone ceases to exist.
--
401.7. As the final part of an instant or sorcery spell's resolution,
the card is put into its owner's graveyard. As the final part of an
artifact, creature, or enchantment spell's resolution, the card
becomes a permanent and is put into the in-play zone under the control
of the spell's controller. If any spell is countered, the card is put
into its owner's graveyard as part of the resolution of the countering
spell or ability. (See rule 413, "Resolving Spells and Activated
Abilities.")
--
I really doubt that option one is correct though. Rule 213.1 reads to
me that the spell and "the associated card" is one and the same, so
removing the card will remove the spell. A case _could_ be made for
"resolves by last known information", but I doubt it would hold since
the stack works by: "Whenever both players pass in succession, the
spell ... on top of the stack resolves"
This, of course, leads us to option number two. The card is removed
from the stack, and stays gone removed - stealth countered if you
will. Much more likely in my opinion.
--
213.1. Every nonland card is a spell while it's being played (see rule
409, "Playing Spells and Activated Abilities") and while it's on the
stack. Once it's played, a card remains a spell until it resolves, is
countered, or otherwise leaves the stack. For more information, see
rule 401, "Spells on the Stack."
--
Stack
A spell or ability goes on top of the stack when it's played or put
onto the stack. Combat-damage assignments also go on top of the stack
as though they were a single object. Whenever both players pass in
succession, the spell, ability, or combat damage on top of the stack
resolves and the active player receives priority again. See rule
217.6, "Stack," and rule 408.1, "Timing, Priority, and the Stack."
--
The last option IMHO, is that we read 213.3 as "the card on the stack
is no longer a card, it is a spell". This would mean that it no longer
would be a valid target for a wish, and this whole problem would go
away
--
213.3. The term "spell" is used to refer to a card while it's on the
stack. The term "card" isn't used to refer to a card that's on the
stack as a spell. It's only used to refer to a card that's not in play
or on the stack, such as a creature card in a player's hand.
--
Note also, that this would never be a problem in DCI-sanctioned play.
There the wishes are restricted to targeting in the removed-from-game
zone and the sideboard. The cards from the maingame is neither, they
are just "outside the subgame".
--
506.5. All objects in the main game and all cards outside the main
game are considered outside the subgame (except those specifically
brought into the subgame).
--
--
Regards
Simon Nejmann
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