[SOLVED] Should I change my case or would Water Cooling solve my Temps issue?

[Killxer]

About a year ago I built my first pc with a very limited budget with the idea of improving it over time. So far I have changed the CPU, GPU, bought three extra Corsair LM Pro fans and added 16 more gigs of ram for a total of 32. These are my current specs:

CPU: Ryzen 7 3700X (Stock Cooler)
GPU: MSI Gaming X 2070 Super
Ram: 4x 8gb Gskill @3200 mhz
MOBO: Gigabyte B450 Aorus M
Case: Thermaltake H100
PSU: Thermaltake 550W 80+ Bronze

The problem that I am having is that since installing the new CPU, the temps are uncomfortably high for my taste. They can easily reach 90c under moderate load. I have managed to keep them low by limiting voltage in Ryzen Master to 1.15 and at max 4100 mhz, but I have to do this every time I log into my pc. When I do that the CPU doesn't go over 80c, but I have to do this every time I turn on the pc, which is annoying for me. I guess it is fair to mention I am in the middle of summer in Spain so we are at about 40c.

The Bios in this mobo are lacking from what I have seen and I am not too much into overclocking, in fact I rather run my components as expected or a little lower to make sure I do not stress them too much. I am a bit afraid of this motherboard and I have not gone too much into undervolting from the Bios. another thing that kills me about this motherboard is that it has one plug for case fans. I had to get a splitter to have all the fans working.

I am planning my next upgrade and I was thinking about changing the Case to one with front mesh panel (the Phanteks P400A, the Mobo (an X570 or a better B450), the PSU (to a modular one, cable management is awful right now) and get a non stock CPU cooler (for better cooling).

Going this route I would not need to buy extra fans because the case brings 3 + the 3 that I already have + The CPU Cooler around 150 EUR. I can get the MSI PRO Carbon B450 for 150EUR, but maybe I would be better with the X570 Gigabyte Aorus elite for 209 EUR or the MSI MAG Tomahawk Wifi x570 for 225 EUR and about 100 EUR for the PSU. We end at around 450 - 475 EUR. I feel like I would spend a lot and I feel like I am almost building a new pc.

On the other hand, I was thinking I could maybe keep the case. It annoys me that the front is closed and it has little entrances on the side of the front. Maybe I can keep it and put water cooling on it. I am a little afraid of water cooling though.

I hope the information given here helps.

 

[Deleted member 2720853]

That case is awful for airflow. My advice get a new case and CPU cooler. Your choice of going for a mesh front case is good.

I wouldn't recommend water cooling. I'd rather go for improved overall airflow and ventilation in the case.

 

[Killxer]

Thanks a lot for your reply.

 

[Turtle Rig]

Thanks a lot for your reply.

Keep your box, just buy a new CPU cooler imo. Grab a Hyper 212 Black and some good paste and those temps will fall down as stock cooler really isn't meant for 4100Mhz on cores operation,, More like 3.7Ghz ..... Your pushing that CPU at 4100Mhz and don't touch the voltage as that can cause instability. Just get the Hyper and youll be set; no need to yank out all yoru components and build a new PC with a new case. Sure a new case is something that will drop temps but its not worth the hassle as Im reading you and I can tell you don't want to go through the hassle you just want a cool CPU. Good Luck

 

[Karadjgne]

1. You aren't going to hurt that board in the slightest, no matter how hard you push a 3700x. That mobo can handle a 3950x, Gigabyte had really decent VRM's on the B450 series Aorus.

2. Don't bother with front intake fans, it's a waste on that case. It's a design that's built primarily for negative pressure operation, same as the nzxt H510. Instead use a 280mm AIO like nzxt Kraken X61/X62 on top and call it a day. You'll drop gpu temps and case airflow won't be as important as with an aircooler.

 

[Killxer]

Edited to tag you in the reply.

Sorry for the long reply in advance! @Turtle Rig

Thanks a lot for your reply. This makes a lot of sense, although I do believe that a case with better ventilation will be beneficial to all of my components over all.

This is the thing, the higher temps are achieved when the CPU is in stock mode. I never had intentions of messing with the components, but it gets really really hot. So I did this and temps went down. I took screenshots while running cinebench, but I do not know how to attach them here, Results below:

Ambient Temps at the time of Test: 24c/76f (Keep in consideration that this go up to 40c/104f during the day)

1. R7 3700X Stock
Peak Speed: 3997MHz
Peak core Voltage: 1.2643
Max. Temp: 85.9c

2. R7 3700X @4100MHz (1.15v)
Peak Speed: 4100 MHz
Peak Core Voltage: 1.15001
Max Temp: 77.5c

Although it seems I am pushing it, the temps are actually lower and the results are better.

If I do change the case I will take the opportunity to build my wife a PC with this case and my previous components which I still have lying around. For the use she will be giving it the PC is more than good and I never had any temp issues with the R7 2700x and Stock cooler.

If I do change the case this is my plan:

1. Phanteks Eclipse P400A USB 3.0 RGB Black (89.99 EUR)
2. Nfortec Sagitta RGB 750W 80 Plus Gold Full Modular (89.21 EUR)
3. MSI B450 GAMING PRO CARBON MAX WIFI (156.90 EUR)
4. Cooler Master Hyper 212 RGB Black Edition (39.98 EUR)

For the coolers there is also the Cooler Master MasterLiquid ML240L RGB for 59.98 EUR. Although I can't stress enough I am scared of Water cooling, but maybe I should not be that afraid. I was also scared to death when building this for the first time. In total the price would be around: 376 - 400 EUR depending on the cooling method. Also, if I give this pc to my wife, I would have to get storage, for which we should add around 100 EUR more.

Or Switch the best components and sell the old PC with the components previously mentioned. I am pretty much building this again.

 

[Killxer]

I really appreciate the reply @Karadjgne! Isn't buying an AIO going to be as expensive as changing the case for better ventilation + fans over all? With the Path you offer me this will allow me to also save on not buying a MOBO, but I am just wondering what will be the effect on other components like the GPU?

Do you think having an AIO on top and just one exhaust fan in the back will have a huge impact on the thermals of the other components? Going this route I save a lot of money so I am interested.

 

[Karadjgne]

When a fan blade moves through air, it creates a low pressure zone behind it. More blades, spinning faster, farther and stronger that low pressure zone becomes. Nature abhors a vacuum, so will attempt to bring balance, air at a higher pressure will move to fill the void. Closest high pressure area? That giant gaping hole sitting on top of the case.

Most tower coolers suffer from that, miserable airflow because a really good chunk of flow is coming from outside. Adding a top rear fan helps out massively, forces the low pressure into the case area and add its strength to that top corner.

AIO's are different. They don't rely on air flow, they rely on air. 2 fans spinning on top creates the low pressure area inside the case, pulling straight up, which is where gpu heat is going anyway. By making the case negative pressure, air will get sucked in from all directions, including helping the gpu move air from underneath. It's a win/win in cases that cannot provide air Flow.

https://www.gamersnexus.net/hwreviews/3309-nzxt-h500-case-review-thermals-noise-vs-s340

Most prebuilts for the last 20+ years have worked on this principle, a solid top and single rear exhaust forcing heat to the top blockage, and sucked out the back. Funny how all these pc's work just fine, even with elevated temps on the cpu. Far too much emphasis is placed on cpu temp being low, when really anything under @ 70°C (ish) is all the same.

Adding a big heat source like a gpu can overwhelm that one fan, but 2 on top creates a chimney. Adding fans to the front can help airflow, or disrupt it, there has to be sufficient intake to overcome the disruption. Blocked case fronts don't offer the intake amount.

 

[Killxer]

Thanks a lot for the detailed reponse. I think I will most likely go with your suggestion.

 

[jasonf2]

I have built both with water cooling and air. For the most part I have moved back to air due to reliability issues on water and low marginal gains on stock clocks. On a water block you typically will have three components to go bad. That is a pump, a radiator fan(s) and the coolant. Of these components the only one you can actually see is the radiator fan. I have had corrosion issues (poor coolant) and pump failure and the only way you can really tell is by seeing the thermals go through the roof. At least with a large air block you have basically one failure component, the fan, that you can either replace or see that it isn't working. I am not discouraging using a water cooler, just know that they aren't bullet proof and unless going for an overclock I have not seen enough thermal gains against a premium air cooler to justify the headache. When buying an air cooler make sure that it will fit as they can get pretty big. As far as case fans Just make sure your large high back one is working. Your temp issue is due to a cpu to heatsink transfer not internal case temps unless your case is getting super hot to the touch when in operation. If that is the case add more fans. Remember that heat rises so exhaust high and intake low.

 

[Karadjgne]

I've been building, tinkering, destroying, modding pc's for the better part of 40 years. For the most part what @jasonf2 has said is somewhat true, but only half the story. Heatsinks can have issues too. I've had Phanteks with warped base, Noctua with leaking heatpipes, cpus destroyed during install, incorrect mounting procedures leading to all kinds of ram errors, even had to replace motherboards destroyed by heavy aircoolers either cracking, or warping until solder points popped.

Reliability? Ehh, that one is up for grabs. A decent AIO or full custom loop can be far more reliable than a cheapo aircooler, reliability is a factor of quality. You buy cheap crud, chances get higher of failure. Everything ever touched, built, designed by man has a failure rate. Doesn't matter what it is. The difference between AIO failure and aircooler failure is almost always a matter of Pride.

Corsair built/sold a million AIO's last year. With a 0.01% failure rate. Sounds very small at first. That's 10,000 unhappy customers. Out of those, 9000 were returns for warranty, simple returns, pump or fan failures etc. Maybe 1000 were leaks, a dribble or visible coolant, nothing catastrophic. Maybe 100 were seriously ugly catastrophic failures spurting coolant everywhere.

And 1 extremely unhappy customer made a video. It goes viral because human nature can't resist seeing the damage. Next thing you know, there's a million hits to that video, some of which belong to ppl who eventually find themselves here. Who then tell everyone not to buy AIO's because they leak and destroy your pc. Which gets read by more people, who pass it on as Gospel. AIO's are bad! They leak, unreliable, noisy, the Devil! Run away! Get an aircooler instead.

But what happened to the other 990,000 very happy customers? Where is their video? Why hasn't it gone viral?

Why don't ppl make videos about aircooler issues? Because there's no way ppl are going to eat crow after blasting the internet about the evils of Watercooling and then admit that their cheaper aircooler failed them. They simply toss it in the trash and buy a new one.

Just the same as ppl who say aircoolers are cheaper then conveiniently forget that the new owner must also go out and buy 2-3 fans because the case only came with 2. Rgb fans can cost upwards of $30-$50 each for the good ones, funny how an expensive AIO comes complete with 2-3.

Aircoolers and AIO's both have bonuses and drawbacks. The right cooler is the one the owner decides has drawbacks he can live with or negate.

 

[jasonf2]

I've been building, tinkering, destroying, modding pc's for the better part of 40 years. For the most part what @jasonf2 has said is somewhat true, but only half the story. Heatsinks can have issues too. I've had Phanteks with warped base, Noctua with leaking heatpipes, cpus destroyed during install, incorrect mounting procedures leading to all kinds of ram errors, even had to replace motherboards destroyed by heavy aircoolers either cracking, or warping until solder points popped.

Reliability? Ehh, that one is up for grabs. A decent AIO or full custom loop can be far more reliable than a cheapo aircooler, reliability is a factor of quality. You buy cheap crud, chances get higher of failure. Everything ever touched, built, designed by man has a failure rate. Doesn't matter what it is. The difference between AIO failure and aircooler failure is almost always a matter of Pride.

Corsair built/sold a million AIO's last year. With a 0.01% failure rate. Sounds very small at first. That's 10,000 unhappy customers. Out of those, 9000 were returns for warranty, simple returns, pump or fan failures etc. Maybe 1000 were leaks, a dribble or visible coolant, nothing catastrophic. Maybe 100 were seriously ugly catastrophic failures spurting coolant everywhere.

And 1 extremely unhappy customer made a video. It goes viral because human nature can't resist seeing the damage. Next thing you know, there's a million hits to that video, some of which belong to ppl who eventually find themselves here. Who then tell everyone not to buy AIO's because they leak and destroy your pc. Which gets read by more people, who pass it on as Gospel. AIO's are bad! They leak, unreliable, noisy, the Devil! Run away! Get an aircooler instead.

But what happened to the other 990,000 very happy customers? Where is their video? Why hasn't it gone viral?

Why don't ppl make videos about aircooler issues? Because there's no way ppl are going to eat crow after blasting the internet about the evils of Watercooling and then admit that their cheaper aircooler failed them. They simply toss it in the trash and buy a new one.

Just the same as ppl who say aircoolers are cheaper then conveiniently forget that the new owner must also go out and buy 2-3 fans because the case only came with 2. Rgb fans can cost upwards of $30-$50 each for the good ones, funny how an expensive AIO comes complete with 2-3.

Aircoolers and AIO's both have bonuses and drawbacks. The right cooler is the one the owner decides has drawbacks he can live with or negate.

Not really where I was going with it. Both water and air have advantages and disadvantages. I just stated I have moved back to air because it is a little less complicated. A fan and a heat sink. If the fan breaks the heatsink in most cases will still protect the cpu with throttling issues. When my water rig failed the pump kept turning, but wouldn't pump water. So bios was ok with the post and only because I watch my thermals on my motherboard readout did I notice it was running hot, really hot. I replaced it with a high end air cooler with dual fans and have had no issues since. Water has much better heat moving capability and if overclocking I would say it is a must. But I run stock clocks and just don't see the point when air is simpler, mechanically redundant and when failure occurs it isn't total. I would also say you get what you pay for. Great Air cooler = great performance, crap = crap. Same for water rigs too.

 

[Karadjgne]

Yes, lol. I had a kraken x61 for the better part of 7 years, great aio, very quiet, kept my i7 at 4.9GHz at 70° when stressed. Got a Cryorig R1 Ultimate to replace it (on a whim, and it was dirt cheap) and had to drop the OC to 4.6GHz to keep the same temps. It's still louder by a good amount than the kraken, but noise is made by fans.
Now I'm getting back to a full custom loop, built from the ground up to be dead silent.

But that's my preference, silence. My wife doesn't wear headphones and working primarily from home, that includes multiple conference calls daily. A noisy pc would not be a welcome addition. So for now, I'm sitting at 4.3GHz, just to keep the fan noise at bay.

I've found over the years that aircoolers in general are actually louder than most AIO's, it's only due to the popularity of the Corsair AIO's and Noctua aircoolers that comparisons to noise become very one sided in favor of aircoolers in general.

A person might be extremely learned and intelligent, but people are sheep. One starts bleeting and before you can turn around, they are all bleeting, and totally oblivious to the real reason why it all started in the first place. You'll find there's many, many things that are 'common knowledge' and anything but based in reality.

It's like ppl who talk about aircooler superiority over liquid cooling, and yet fail to realize there's no such thing really as aircooling in any cooler that uses heatpipes. They are vapor chambers partially filled with fluid. Base heats up the fluid, which turns to 'steam' rises up the heat pipe, the fins cool the steam which drops back to the base. It's literally liquid cooling going on in a Hyper212. Or a NH-D15. And they do leak, occasionally.

Well an AIO is 100% aesthetic. the best aio does not perform better than the best air cooler, nor is it quieter.

but it looks much better.
and the difference is quite small.

Sheep. Baaaa....

 

[Killxer]

Just an update... I finally upgraded both my case and my cooler to an air cooler and took the oportunity to make other upgrades. Now my pc does not turn on, I believe I got a bad psu delivered. Will post on the relevant subject.