Question Should I upgrade?

H. Finner

Distinguished
Oct 16, 2014
175
0
18,710
HI! I am currently running this setup:

(1440p 165hz GSYNC monitor)
CPU: Intel Xeon E3-1231 V3 3.4 GHz Quad-Core Processor
CPU Cooler: Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO 82.9 CFM Sleeve Bearing CPU Cooler
Motherboard: MSI Z97-GAMING 5 ATX LGA1150 Motherboard
Memory: Kingston Savage 16 GB (2 x 8 GB) DDR3-2400 Memory
Video Card: MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8 GB GAMING X 8G Video Card
Case: Cooler Master HAF 912 ATX Mid Tower Case
Power Supply: EVGA SuperNOVA G2 850 W 80+ Gold Certified Fully Modular ATX Power Supply

And what I am thinking right now is upgrading to an 8700k and overclocking it. I am planning on pairing 2x16GB 3000mhz ram with it, but I am not sure if switching almost my entire system is worth the upgrade from what I have previously listed. (I mainly game)
 
And your heart is set on going with Intel?

Do you intend to do ANY heavy multitasking while gaming? Streaming? Recording? Encoding? Other applications? Many browser tabs? Anything that might be a taxing simultaneous process WHILE your game engine is running?
 

H. Finner

Distinguished
Oct 16, 2014
175
0
18,710
And your heart is set on going with Intel?

Do you intend to do ANY heavy multitasking while gaming? Streaming? Recording? Encoding? Other applications? Many browser tabs? Anything that might be a taxing simultaneous process WHILE your game engine is running?
Yes I have 3 monitors (other 2 not 1440p, but 1080p) and I usually have alot of tabs open and I do stream sometimes. I do max out my current CPU quite a bit and that's another reason I want to upgrade.

But yes I truly do want to go with intel, I'm not sure though if there will be a new generation out soon that will have a better price/performance than the 8700k
 
  • Like
Reactions: boju

Vana Ivan Pandovski

Distinguished
Jan 15, 2014
271
8
18,865
Well, the suggested 9700k is good for gaming one of the best, but for gaming and streaming I would suggest you take 3gen Ryzen they are very good, and now they have better IPS from many intel CPU or close to them.
I would suggest you go with Ryzen 7 3700X and it is a low TDP of 65W, very fast one for $330 on Newegg and Amazon and Gigabyte X570 AORUS ELITE $190 and G.Skill Trident Z Neo 2x 8GB = 16GB 3600MHz CL16 for $115 so more or less you will be on some $635. But you will be way better for gaming+streaming.
 

H. Finner

Distinguished
Oct 16, 2014
175
0
18,710
Thanks for the recommendations guys, but I am choosing the 8700k for Overclocking compared to the 9700k which doesn't look that great in comparison, namely on the GamerNexus video about the 9700k.

What I really wanted to know is if I would get a pretty big fps difference from switching from my xeon to a 8700k, on general games like the new Modern Warfare or other big titles.
 
I'm not sure what you're looking at, because I've referenced that GamersNexus review many times, and just took another look at it to be sure, and the benchmarks for the 9700k at stock settings show it usually nudging out the 8700k with a 5Ghz OC, in just about everything. Considering that's with no OC on the 9700k, and we ARE talking about 1% and .1% low benchmarks which are what typically matter the most because that's where trouble tends to develop in terms of visible stuttering or lag, I'm not sure how you could even consider the 8700k except as a better alternative in terms of price, only, and we're talking a five dollar difference, so.....

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXepIWi4SgM


There ARE a few instances where the overclocked 8700k has a better .1/1% score but they are few AND in almost every case, a similar OC on the 9700k wipes out even those few results.

Plus, AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, that review was done BEFORE the patches and mitigations for all of the various Spectre and Meltdown vulnerabilities, so you can be sure that there would be an even bigger amount of disparity in those comparisons now, than there was then, because the hyperthreading performance has been hampered to varying degrees (depends on who you ask, as to how much we feel this has actually had an effect on performance but where OTHER processes are involved that are not strictly gaming, we can assume the hit on performance is likely to be higher than on "just" gaming) and since the 8700k has two fewer actual physical cores then anything that hampers the hyperthreading performance is going to have a decent negative effect on those CPUs.

In some cases on the 8700k, as much as a 24% impact on performance.

https://www.extremetech.com/computing/291649-intel-performance-amd-spectre-meltdown-mds-patches

So unless you can get a PRE-patch era motherboard that has a BIOS from before these began going into effect, and can install an old enough build version of Windows that does not include any of the cumulative mitigations, it would be pretty hard to get the kind of performance from the 8700k that you see in the GamersNexus review, which occurred prior to any of these BIOS revisions or software patches happening.

Right now, I wouldn't even spend any extra money on an Intel CPU simply to gain hyperthreads. It's the main reason I haven't done a platform upgrade yet, at this point, because I'd LIKE to wait and see if Intel at some point offers a 10 or 12 core no-hyperthreading model with some optimizations. If that doesn't happen in the next 12 months or so, and it probably won't, then I'll likely either upgrade my 6700k to a 9700k or a 3700x/3900x, unless something else, more appealing, comes along before then. I'm ready for one now, because I can definitely tell that my performance is not as good as it was prior to those mitigations AND because being five years old with only four physical cores, I could be doing a lot better especially in the area of heavy multitasking, than I am now.

As far as YOUR performance expectations, yes, I believe you would likely see a pretty fair jump in performance, even WITH the mitigations and patches, from what you have now to either of these choices. I just believe your better option is the 9700k. The six cores on the 8700k plus it's hamstrung hyperthreading, doesn't seem to overcome the performance of the all physical 8 core 9700k, regardless of whether you overclock the 8700k or not.

If there is something out there that refutes any of this, and clearly demonstrates that this is not the case, I certainly haven't seen or heard about it. Anything is possible, but the MOST recent information I can find regarding the effect of the cumulative effects of these mitigations seems to clearly make the case that those early reviews are probably not representative of today's performance numbers and "feel". Having 5fps higher maximum or average FPS doesn't make much difference if you have an 8-10 FPS lower .1/1% that translates into visually noticeable problems.

Likely, none of these is really an issue, but since we know that THIS metric is the one that matters most, then it's what we have to point to when it's clear that there is a difference between two products and one doesn't perform as well as the other on this baseline.

Then again, I've been wrong before so I'm sure somebody will come along and tell me how full of crap I am.
 
  • Like
Reactions: H. Finner

H. Finner

Distinguished
Oct 16, 2014
175
0
18,710
I'm not sure what you're looking at, because I've referenced that GamersNexus review many times, and just took another look at it to be sure, and the benchmarks for the 9700k at stock settings show it usually nudging out the 8700k with a 5Ghz OC, in just about everything. Considering that's with no OC on the 9700k, and we ARE talking about 1% and .1% low benchmarks which are what typically matter the most because that's where trouble tends to develop in terms of visible stuttering or lag, I'm not sure how you could even consider the 8700k except as a better alternative in terms of price, only, and we're talking a five dollar difference, so.....

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXepIWi4SgM


There ARE a few instances where the overclocked 8700k has a better .1/1% score but they are few AND in almost every case, a similar OC on the 9700k wipes out even those few results.

Plus, AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, that review was done BEFORE the patches and mitigations for all of the various Spectre and Meltdown vulnerabilities, so you can be sure that there would be an even bigger amount of disparity in those comparisons now, than there was then, because the hyperthreading performance has been hampered to varying degrees (depends on who you ask, as to how much we feel this has actually had an effect on performance but where OTHER processes are involved that are not strictly gaming, we can assume the hit on performance is likely to be higher than on "just" gaming) and since the 8700k has two fewer actual physical cores then anything that hampers the hyperthreading performance is going to have a decent negative effect on those CPUs.

In some cases on the 8700k, as much as a 24% impact on performance.

https://www.extremetech.com/computing/291649-intel-performance-amd-spectre-meltdown-mds-patches

So unless you can get a PRE-patch era motherboard that has a BIOS from before these began going into effect, and can install an old enough build version of Windows that does not include any of the cumulative mitigations, it would be pretty hard to get the kind of performance from the 8700k that you see in the GamersNexus review, which occurred prior to any of these BIOS revisions or software patches happening.

Right now, I wouldn't even spend any extra money on an Intel CPU simply to gain hyperthreads. It's the main reason I haven't done a platform upgrade yet, at this point, because I'd LIKE to wait and see if Intel at some point offers a 10 or 12 core no-hyperthreading model with some optimizations. If that doesn't happen in the next 12 months or so, and it probably won't, then I'll likely either upgrade my 6700k to a 9700k or a 3700x/3900x, unless something else, more appealing, comes along before then. I'm ready for one now, because I can definitely tell that my performance is not as good as it was prior to those mitigations AND because being five years old with only four physical cores, I could be doing a lot better especially in the area of heavy multitasking, than I am now.

As far as YOUR performance expectations, yes, I believe you would likely see a pretty fair jump in performance, even WITH the mitigations and patches, from what you have now to either of these choices. I just believe your better option is the 9700k. The six cores on the 8700k plus it's hamstrung hyperthreading, doesn't seem to overcome the performance of the all physical 8 core 9700k, regardless of whether you overclock the 8700k or not.

If there is something out there that refutes any of this, and clearly demonstrates that this is not the case, I certainly haven't seen or heard about it. Anything is possible, but the MOST recent information I can find regarding the effect of the cumulative effects of these mitigations seems to clearly make the case that those early reviews are probably not representative of today's performance numbers and "feel". Having 5fps higher maximum or average FPS doesn't make much difference if you have an 8-10 FPS lower .1/1% that translates into visually noticeable problems.

Likely, none of these is really an issue, but since we know that THIS metric is the one that matters most, then it's what we have to point to when it's clear that there is a difference between two products and one doesn't perform as well as the other on this baseline.

Then again, I've been wrong before so I'm sure somebody will come along and tell me how full of crap I am.
Ok thanks. I may just wait till next year when they announce their new cpu's and it will hopefully bring out some better hardware and bring the down the price for the 8700k/9700k.
 
I think we will see at least a moderate further reduction in prices over the next two months for the holiday shopping season, but maybe not. It could go the other way since demand might exceed availability, since both AMD and Intel have been having problems fulfilling stock orders. Waiting is what I'm going to do until it becomes clear that doing so is pointless.

It might be a very good idea to buy your memory NOW though, because it is unlikely to go anywhere except UP from where the prices are on it now and DDR5 isn't going to likely be a thing for quite some time so anything you buy in the next two years is very much likely to still be using DDR4, especially (obviously) if it's a product from the existing product stack. Waiting to buy memory could mean paying significantly more for it after the next release cycle because demand will probably go up again, and even if it doesn't, industry expectations are that DRAM prices are going to go back up before long due to some manufacturing fubars that have occured that are likely to reduce availability at some point. It might not, but it is a pretty sure thing that it's probably not going to go DOWN much further than it already has. Just a thought.
 
Last edited:

InvalidError

Titan
Moderator
DDR5 isn't going to likely be a thing for quite some time so anything you buy in the next two years is very much likely to still be using DDR4
Since AM4 very likely gets its last product cycle next year, I'd say DDR5 is fairly likely to become a thing two years from now, though we'll probably be knee-deep into transition platforms for another year or two beyond that.

I'm tempted to buy my DDR4 right now in case prices bounce too. Then again, I'm not planning to upgrade my system any time soon and I'm expecting lower latency and/or higher speed memory to become significantly cheaper (or at least more tightly grouped with other clock/latency bins) over time as yields keep improving, whatever RAM I may get today won't be the RAM I wish I had by the time Ryzen 4k launches. With the memory market being down partly due to CPU shortages and slower mobile device sales, I'll take my chances with waiting some more.
 
If you are willing to wait well into next year for a more substantial upgrade, then keep your eyes open for AMD in 2H 2020 as well, since they might be releasing Zen 3 close to that time. Otherwise, keep your eyes pealed for any new Intel products, since I imagine the stock for those are going to be quite low.