Discussion Should toms hardware and other websites still recommend faster than rated ram?

[Deleted member 2947362]

Like the title says.

After watching this on Youtube do you think it's still acceptable to recommend faster than rated ram?

Especially after hearing about how Asus is dealing with things and thier motherboards BIOS issues and warranty.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kg8Gj_tcGDY

 

[bill001g]

There are reddit posts that say asus has very recently changed the text in these bios downloads to remove some of the warranty stuff. Seems after a number of these youtube video maybe they listen....I doubt it.
Their lawyers always have fine print buried someplace that lets them off the hook. We will see so far you do not hear about refused warranty claims. I think the larger issue is this can cause long term damage so it might not fail until after the warranty.

 

[Darkbreeze]

This is just nonsense, and is simply a LAME attempt by these companies, much as ANY corporate company that sells products tends to do, to illegally limit their liability especially for anybody who wouldn't know better. It is NO different than car manufacturers who try to insist that if you don't use THEIR manufacturer specific lubricants such as oil, power steering fluid, brake fluid and engine coolant, and I don't mean equivalents, I mean THEIR exact products sold through their stealerships, it will void the warranty.

Or that if you take your vehicle anywhere other than THEIR service centers during the warranty period, it won't be covered.

Now, in some countries they MIGHT get away with that, but since most countries have even MORE stringent consumer rights laws than the US, and in the US the courts have already ruled that automobile manufacturers CANNOT refuse to cover the warranty on any vehicle simply because you did not use THEIR brand of lubricant, so long as you DID use the CORRECT specification of lubricant, and that ANY suitably certified service center or shop can perform warranty repairs (Although then, as a shop, you will have to submit payment requests to the manufacturer and wait which most shops will not want to do), they cannot refuse to honor the warranties on these vehicles.

This is no different. Intel and AMD would never have a leg to stand on if they even TRIED to not honor the warranty on something because you used XMP, AMP, A-XMP or EXPO, all of which are SPECIFICALLY CERTIFIED, by THEM, and further approved through THEM working with their board partners to establish exactly what XMP or other OC specifications are supported on any given board WITH a specific CPU installed.

Furthermore, since THEY are the ones that dictate the majority of the specifications that need to be adhered to when it comes to any given motherboard's default behaviors such as clock frequency, voltages and other CPU specific configuration settings, they could never justifiably argue in court that you had done anything they didn't approve of UNLESS you had manually made a change to the default configuration that did not specifically conform to specifications certified by them such as using one of the motherboard manufacturers overclocking profiles, or manually overclocking something using your own custom settings. Since XMP and EXPO are both certified BY those companies, and since their board partners specify specific support parameters for memory speeds that are determined by direct cooperation with the CPU manufacturer, they would legally never be able to successfully argue that you had used not recommended methods that resulted in whatever damage occurred.

Besides which, not once in 35 years has Intel, AMD or ANY motherboard manufacturer EVER even asked anything related to this subject when I've had to return a product that was still covered under warranty. Granted, for CPUs it rarely happens, but it has happened occasionally, and has specifically happened SINCE the advent of these overclocking memory profiles on both DDR3 and DDR4 platforms, and not once have they ever asked "Was XMP enabled when this happened" or "Were you using an aftermarket CPU cooler" like was also mentioned in the video.

It's pure BS and is only there so that they can reduce the probability of having to cover something under warranty if somebody who doesn't know better happens to go along with it.

We have consumer rights laws in the US at least that are highly extensive and the idea that something like wouldn't fall under at least one of those protections is ludicrous and laughable. But these big companies will ALWAYS try to push you around if they feel like they can get away with it, whether they are outside the law or not. It's no different than manufacturers trying to not honor warranties if you've removed the "warranty void if removed" sticker on many products. The courts have told these companies to STFU on that subject as well, so no, I do not believe either Intel or AMD would care to litigate something like this. It costs way TOO LITTLE for them to simply replace the part than could ever be justified by the legal expenses necessary to fight it off.

Never happen. Ever. So no, I think any company like Tom's Hardware that would stop recommending memory that is rated outside the speed of the standard baseline that is supported by the default JEDEC spec would be stupid and would likely immediately lose all credibility and probably not long after begin losing their entire following as well.

 

[Darkbreeze]

There are reddit posts that say asus has very recently changed the text in these bios downloads to remove some of the warranty stuff. Seems after a number of these youtube video maybe they listen....I doubt it.
Their lawyers always have fine print buried someplace that lets them off the hook. We will see so far you do not hear about refused warranty claims. I think the larger issue is this can cause long term damage so it might not fail until after the warranty.

I have never, not once, heard of Intel or AMD refusing a warranty claim for anything other than obvious user caused damage like delidding failure, bent pins, obviously dropped on the floor, clearly burned areas, etc., that couldn't be argued to be something other than user caused. It's not worth their time and those fine print items are just a ploy to get those who don't know better to simply give up when something goes wrong. Companies can TELL YOU anything they want. Getting it to stick in a court of law is an entirely different matter and they KNOW that. Doesn't matter how many lawyers you have. It matters what the LAW says.

 

[Deleted member 2947362]

I didn't realise enabling XMP memory profile if the profile is higher than the rated CPU's memory controller voids the warranty on the CPU 😱

I knew it was over clocking the memory controller but I thought as they endorsed it's use then it wouldn't effect the warranty.

Glad I stuck to the AMD official supported XMP Ram speed rating of 3200Mhz when using 2 slots for my R5 5600.

 

[Darkbreeze]

It will NOT void the warranty. As I said, that's BS. I guess you didn't actually read my post or if you did, then you didn't understand it. In which case, it probably IS better for you to stick to the natively supported JEDEC standard memory speed anyhow.

People have been using XMP, A-XMP, AMP and now also EXPO memory overclocking profiles, for probably 90% of custom built (And also prebuilt systems with boards that support it) systems, since about 2007, and I have never, not ONCE, heard of anybody being refused a warranty claim because their configuration utilized an XMP or other memory overclocking profile. Never. Not. Once. And I would absolutely bet that I never will, because those companies know they could never win such a case.

 

[Deleted member 2947362]

It will NOT void the warranty. As I said, that's BS. I guess you didn't actually read my post or if you did, then you didn't understand it. In which case, it probably IS better for you to stick to the natively supported JEDEC standard memory speed anyhow.

People have been using XMP, A-XMP, AMP and now also EXPO memory overclocking profiles, for probably 90% of custom built (And also prebuilt systems with boards that support it) systems, since about 2007, and I have never, not ONCE, heard of anybody being refused a warranty claim because their configuration utilized an XMP or other memory overclocking profile. Never. Not. Once. And I would absolutely bet that I never will, because those companies know they could never win such a case.

yea I read it and understood it, but if it's stated in the warranty it will void the warranty says a lot about the practice.

If they told me that I void the warranty of my CPU due to running XMP ram that's rated higher than the CPU's memory controller by overclocking the memory controller further than it's rated spec which is stated it's not covered by the warranty then I would be p***ed off but probs just except I didn't know.

Also why even put that in the warranty if they will replace it? still a slimy practice in the first place that it's even there to start with, considering they endorse the practice by using it in their benchmark tests they uses to show off performance gains, tempt people to unwittingly void their warranty.

And God forbid you don't use one of the cooling solutions that's not on their list of supported coolers for their CPU's ! Warranty void mate .. WTF lol

 

[Darkbreeze]

No, you didn't understand it. Like I said, automobile manufacturers ALSO PUT IN THEIR WARRANTIES that you have to use ONLY THEIR lubricants and only their dealerships while under warranty, and the courts have shut that down with CLEAR language that says that they can't say that and that they can't refuse to honor the warranty if somebody uses other products or goes elsewhere like their preferred shop, for service. This is no different. I don't know how much clearer I can make that.

Case in point, ASUS and others put crap like that in their warranties as well, but now that it's been brought into the public spotlight, they are QUICKLY changing their tune. Not just because it makes them look like crap, but because they know that having that language in the warranty in the first place is likely a violation of law.

Asus Responds to AM5 BIOS Controversy: Warranty Covers Beta Fixes, EXPO Presets

Asus says its Ryzen 7000 warranty covers beta BIOS fixes, and EXPO memory presets.

www.tomshardware.com

It's worth repeating, and so I will, that practically EVERY electronic device sold in the US in the past and a lot of them still today, have stickers on them that must be removed or broken to get inside the device that say "Warranty void if decal is broken or missing" and expressly prohibit opening up the device in their warranty documentation as well, but the Federal court system has told them as well that they cannot tell people that because the Magnuson-Moss warranty act prohibits them from not honoring the warranty just because you opened, fixed or modified the device.

As seen here: https://www.ifixit.com/News/15464/w...egal-but-these-companies-are-still-using-them

So companies can PUT anything they want to in the warranty as a prohibition, but that does not make it legal or enforceable, nor does it mean that the company is going to refuse to warrant something especially if they know they are going to get seriously bad publicity from it if somebody decides "screw you, let's go to court". Which is exactly what would happen if Intel or AMD tried to pull this kind of BS.

 

[Deleted member 2947362]

No, you didn't understand it. Like I said, automobile manufacturers ALSO PUT IN THEIR WARRANTIES that you have to use ONLY THEIR lubricants and only their dealerships while under warranty, and the courts have shut that down with CLEAR language that says that they can't say that and that they can't refuse to honor the warranty if somebody uses other products or goes elsewhere like their preferred shop, for service. This is no different. I don't know how much clearer I can make that.

Case in point, ASUS and others put crap like that in their warranties as well, but now that it's been brought into the public spotlight, they are QUICKLY changing their tune. Not just because it makes them look like crap, but because they know that having that language in the warranty in the first place is likely a violation of law.

Asus Responds to AM5 BIOS Controversy: Warranty Covers Beta Fixes, EXPO Presets

Asus says its Ryzen 7000 warranty covers beta BIOS fixes, and EXPO memory presets.

www.tomshardware.com

It's worth repeating, and so I will, that practically EVERY electronic device sold in the US in the past and a lot of them still today, have stickers on them that must be removed or broken to get inside the device that say "Warranty void if decal is broken or missing" and expressly prohibit opening up the device in their warranty documentation as well, but the Federal court system has told them as well that they cannot tell people that because the Magnuson-Moss warranty act prohibits them from not honoring the warranty just because you opened, fixed or modified the device.

As seen here: https://www.ifixit.com/News/15464/w...egal-but-these-companies-are-still-using-them

So companies can PUT anything they want to in the warranty as a prohibition, but that does not make it legal or enforceable, nor does it mean that the company is going to refuse to warrant something especially if they know they are going to get seriously bad publicity from it if somebody decides "screw you, let's go to court". Which is exactly what would happen if Intel or AMD tried to pull this kind of BS.

Quote "So companies can PUT anything they want to in the warranty as a prohibition, but that does not make it legal or enforceable, nor does it mean that the company is going to refuse to warrant something especially if they know they are going to get seriously bad publicity from it if somebody decides "screw you, let's go to court". Which is exactly what would happen if Intel or AMD tried to pull this kind of BS."

That's handy to know because I'd just probs except it was my fault, as I would of known I was overclocking the memory controller and that is classed as an overclock of the CPU which I have always thought void's the warranty and I'm taking the risk by knowing that, which is normally the accepted attitude from all the years of my reading about computers and over clocking on the internet.

 

[Darkbreeze]

That's handy to know because I'd just probs except it was my fault,

That's EXACTLY why they do it, even though they know it's not enforceable. It's just like Amazon or Newegg sending out hardware or other items that they already know has been returned for being damaged or faulty, without doing any testing of it to verify it actually works, and they DO do this, because they know that about half the time whoever gets that item the second time is probably just going to say to hell with it, eat the cost of it, and either forget it or order another one. In this way that retailer might save themselves from eating the cost of that component after all and all it costs them to take that risk is the small amount of shipping. And now, with Amazon having mostly their own self contained delivery services, it actually almost costs them nothing to do this. So instead of having to lose money on every return, they might only have to lose money on HALF of those returns, because some people won't bother with having to return, RMA or warranty something because a lot of people are just too lazy to deal with it.

Intel and AMD know that some people are likely to do the same thing here. They will just assume it's not going to be covered and buy another one. So it's a win for them even though they WILL cover the warranty for everybody else. They save money by basically being slimy asshats. Except that they are really not, because they WILL cover the item if they need to and can't prove it was something OBVIOUS that you did like bend pins, burn something up visibly that can be seen on the CPU, damage the device physically by dropping it, etc.

 

[thestryker]

AFAIK Intel's warranties all state a lot of the word "may" which is just lawyer speak to give them a lot of latitude. I'm not really sure why AMD's is so specific, and as was previously stated they would never stand up to any challenge.

I'm more familiar with how Intel has done things and historically they just replace CPUs barring obvious physical damage. I believe Steve from GN has even said they've tried to get Intel to deny warranty over XMP and it has never happened.

As for the title I do think all CPU reviewers should at least test at stock settings to show out of the box how things work. There's of course a lot of value in XMP/EXPO settings for end users as well, but one shouldn't eliminate the other for reviews.

 

[Karadjgne]

You kill a cpu. You assume it's your fault, and therefore not covered, so buy another cpu because you don't want the expense of replacing the entire platform for your mistake. That wins double. They will not disabuse you of your decision, they'll keep their mouth shut. At the same time, both will tell you of advanced features and abilities for your use, hoping you will swap platforms to theirs or stay with theirs and possibly upgrading to a more expensive cpu.

They want your money and aren't about to insist you don't need to spend it twice. Asshats indeed, but don't blame them for your assumptions.

 

[TerryLaze]

That's EXACTLY why they do it, even though they know it's not enforceable.

It's 100% enforceable, they state their CPU limits and going above that is just like your car fluids example, you go with fluids that are beyond the specs so anything that happens is your fault.

Intel and AMD just still cover the RMA only because they want to avoid the public spectacle that happened to asus now, a good standing is much more important than the few bucks they lose on RMAs.

Also the void you warranty sticker itself is not enforceable but that doesn't mean that you can open a device and still get warranty every time, you still need to use proper tools and have technician skills to open it, if they see scratches, notches or anything because you brute forced it open you still lose your warranty.

 

[Darkbreeze]

Intel and AMD just still cover the RMA only because they want to avoid the public spectacle that happened to asus now, a good standing is much more important than the few bucks they lose on RMAs.

That, is the only part of anything you said that matters in any way. The rest is simply vitriol, and inaccurate vitriol for that matter, which you are well known for on this site. Not sure why you even bother to be honest.

And yes, I clearly stated that any kind of obviously user caused damage will never be covered by any warranty, regardless of the product in question. Maybe actually read what somebody has said in it's entirety next time.