Simple suggestion for experts dealing with people new to Linux

[MrCloudDenton]

Hi I've been using Linux for several years, I don't consider myself an expert but am reasonably knowledgeable. I also think I've stayed in touch with how people new to Linux think and view the problems they encounter as I still come across things that I find difficult.

Just a something I feel should be kept in mind when dealing with people new to Linux.

GUI

People new to Linux have often never used command prompt in Windows, ever. Explain to them how to do things in Linux with the GUI.

Getting them into a mind-set of simply Googling and copying and pasting sudo commands into terminal in my opinion is a big mistake, and can definitely go wrong.

Try and reinforce that they should be understanding what there doing. Teach a man to fish rather than giving fish after fish after fish.

Any distribution from the Ubuntu family (Xubuntu, Lubuntu etc.) can be used 100% from the GUI with a normal home user, year in year out.

I hope this didn't seem pretentious, I know for a fact there are people on these forums that are 100 times more experienced and adept with Linux than me.

 

[Ijack]

I'm afraid that I disagree. My belief is that the use of GUIs masks what is really happening rather than helping users to understand what they are doing. This is not helped by the fact that there are so many different GUIs that do the same task.

This is particularly important when, as so often happens, the problem involves a video driver - or other GUI component - that is not working correctly. Don't treat Linux like Windows; much of its beauty is that most configuration can be done be editing simple text files. Most of the tools to solve Linux problems (and the logs that tell you what those problems are) work best in a simple shell.

 

[MrCloudDenton]

Well said you definitely have a valid argument. But I'm not sure if that logic really works with Linux users with close to zero technical knowledge, and no desire to to learn more than they need too. I have friends that would never attempt to learn text based commands, so they would be simply copying and pasting from Google searches.

 

[Ijack]

I have friends that would never attempt to learn text based commands, so they would be simply copying and pasting from Google searches.

But is that any worse than blindly following instructions found via Google to use a GUI to do the job? Or is it actually better, being more widely applicable in general?

When faced with a question about, for example, problems with wireless networking (a not uncommon problem), helpers will often ask for the output of various commands, or the contents of a particular log. This may not help the person with the problems, but it certainly helps the person trying to solve it. I could make some suggestions about solving such a problem in a generic Linux setup, using standard command-line programs, but I'd have no idea as to what GUI is used by Ubuntu 10.04 or Arch Linux to manage wireless networking.

 

[MrCloudDenton]

When someone actually runs into significant problems (driver issues) terminal commands may be the best way to go.

But I think following GUI instructions is generally better for a couple reasons. One, a much larger range of people will actually understand what there doing, and can do it again, and can teach friends and family.

And two, I think it's much safer and more reliable for non-technically minded people as it gives the user far less ways to go wrong. If your going install a piece of software via GUI the only options it's going to give you is to install the software, remove the software and perhaps add additional components. You can't really go wrong. If that same non technically minded person copied and pasted terminal commands to install a program they could do a huge range of crazy things to there Linux install, depending on the information there given. Keeping in mind they don't understand the text in the commands whatsoever.

I don't doubt a seasoned command-line user like yourself understands the inner workings of Linux far more clearly than even the most competent GUI user. But your not the type of user I'm discussing, I'm talking about Linux newbies. The evolution of computer and mobile OS's has proved Joe Blogs understands GUIs much better than text based commands.

 

[Ijack]

OK then. I'll have leave you to help with Linux problems. I'm guessing that less than 1% of Linux users (and that's being very generous) run the same distributions, with the same GUI programs to configure networks, install programs, etc., that I do. There's no way that I'm going to install every possible Linux distro just to find out which particular GUI they use.

 

[MrCloudDenton]

I said:

"When someone actually runs into significant problems (driver issues) terminal commands may be the best way to go."

I'll go further that and say there are definitely times when people have complex problems when command line is the best way to fix things.

But for a lot of other times teaching a user to really understand the GUI (which is getting simpler and simpler every year) is better in my opinion. I've seen countless forum posts with Buntu users asking the command to install a specific piece of software, the specific package name. If one person could just teach them how to use Synaptic Package Manager or Ubuntu Software Center that is going to be more helpful in my opinion.

I'm not saying it's a perfect system.

 

[MrCloudDenton]

I think the 1% remark is an exageration. What percentage of people use Ubuntu or Mint? What percentage of people use either Gnome, or XFCE or LXDE?

 

[Ijack]

I think the 1% remark is an exageration. What percentage of people use Ubuntu or Mint? What percentage of people use either Gnome, or XFCE or LXDE?

What percentage of people use a 64-bit Gentoo installation customized for an Intel i7? I'll stick with my 1% estimate. That's what I use, and that's the only distro whose GUI tools I could reliably comment on.

I'm not about to change my distribution just so that I can help newbies who aren't up to typing commands in a terminal.

Of course I can tell you how to edit fstab, how to use ifconfig, or how to view log files, in any distribution.

 

[MrCloudDenton]

Fare enough, I have no doubt you are a lot of help to a lot of Linux users I didn't mean to question that.

 

[randomizer]

If you're trying to get the person to do something via CLI then it's worth explaining what that 200 character string actually does. That way the person has the opportunity to learn something instead of just copying and pasting and hoping it does what they want. Of course many people will just skip the explanation, but you never know when it might help someone who arrives at the thread via Google.

I agree that the copy/paste trend is way out of control. The trouble is that many of the people posting instructions on blogs have no idea what they are doing themselves. Abuse of sudo is one that annoys me. I've seen people giving instructions that include "sudo cd path/to/directory". If it doesn't need to be run with escalated permissions, don't run it with escalated permissions. This is especially true for GUI applications. If permissions are elevated incorrectly (eg. by using sudo) you can cause all sorts of problems with root taking over files that you don't want it to. Plus who wants all that messy and unaudited GUI code running with superuser permissions? Who knows what it does?

 

[stillblue]

We all here offer the GUI when appropriate and available. for example, in many posts I mention boot-repair which is the gui but I also will suggest sudo update-grub which is the command line for the most common problem boot-repair fixes. People should be made aware that the command line is your friend and to copy/paste a line is a whole lot easier to do than install and learn the gui.

 

[nss000]

Your items two(2) and four(4) do not mesh. Either pure GUI interaction is a virtue or it's a vice .. pik yo' poison.

For me, Linux CLI script syntax is truly repulsive (gag & throw-up repulsive) so the six lines of such palaver I must manually enter to enable APACHE OPEN OFFICE on my Ubuntu system is **really** a big deal. Terminal copy/paste insertion from MONKEY-SEE/MONKEY-DO sites makes that software-choice task possible for me at all!

Hi I've been using Linux for several years, I don't consider myself an expert but am reasonably knowledgeable. I also think I've stayed in touch with how people new to Linux think and view the problems they encounter as I still come across things that I find difficult.

Just a something I feel should be kept in mind when dealing with people new to Linux.

GUI

People new to Linux have often never used command prompt in Windows, ever. Explain to them how to do things in Linux with the GUI.

Getting them into a mind-set of simply Googling and copying and pasting sudo commands into terminal in my opinion is a big mistake, and can definitely go wrong.

Try and reinforce that they should be understanding what there doing. Teach a man to fish rather than giving fish after fish after fish.

Any distribution from the Ubuntu family (Xubuntu, Lubuntu etc.) can be used 100% from the GUI with a normal home user, year in year out.

I hope this didn't seem pretentious, I know for a fact there are people on these forums that are 100 times more experienced and adept with Linux than me.

 

[chamaecyparis]

Simple suggestions for Linux Newbies dealing with 'experts':
1) Know your hardware
2) Learn your distriibution's package handler, try to learn the command's to get what you want from your distro's repositories; know where your sources.list file is located and learn how to edit it and modify repos
3) Learn how to use gparted and experiment with partitioning; do not be afraind to have to reinstall your GNU/Linux OS (distro) -- it's part of the learining process
4) Copying and pasting, if it helps, is okay at first -- but try to see what the copy and pasie is actually doing and how it is doing it; experiment and don't negelect to remember number 3)
5) Don't complain when Linux proves to be different -- adapt to the Operating System and do not expect it to adapt to you. Linux Is Not Windows
6) Know how to ask proper concise questions in your forum of choice and remember, it is no place for egos to run rampant -- fora are tools for learning -- that's why there exist Ignore Lists
7) Have fun and strive to be able to contribute in Linux forums at some time in near to mid future

 

[nss000]

The term Casual Linux Lusr (cll) is much more appropriate than n00b ... so use it!

Now ... for items 1-->6 I respond ... No! I **hire** (opportunity cost) an OS to "operate my system". If I wished to operate the system I'd run LFS or such-like. But, I do expect "best practice" behavior from the UBUNTU software I HAVE chosen to operate my computer system. Much of that best practice OS behavior was generated within the Apple/M$ environs and I expect to see it everywhere.

DEMAND might be a better word than expect, as I financially contribute to Cannonical. If all the candyland goodies from GUI interaction to automagic updating were not in UBUNTU I would not be there either. Use LFS if you think otherwise.

Simple suggestions for Linux Newbies dealing with 'experts':
1) Know your hardware
2) Learn your distriibution's package handler, try to learn the command's to get what you want from your distro's repositories; know where your sources.list file is located and learn how to edit it and modify repos
3) Learn how to use gparted and experiment with partitioning; do not be afraind to have to reinstall your GNU/Linux OS (distro) -- it's part of the learining process
4) Copying and pasting, if it helps, is okay at first -- but try to see what the copy and pasie is actually doing and how it is doing it; experiment and don't negelect to remember number 3)
5) Don't complain when Linux proves to be different -- adapt to the Operating System and do not expect it to adapt to you. Linux Is Not Windows
6) Know how to ask proper concise questions in your forum of choice and remember, it is no place for egos to run rampant -- fora are tools for learning -- that's why there exist Ignore Lists
7) Have fun and strive to be able to contribute in Linux forums at some time in near to mid future

 

[MrCloudDenton]

"I agree that the copy/paste trend is way out of control. The trouble is that many of the people posting instructions on blogs have no idea what they are doing themselves. Abuse of sudo is one that annoys me."

Cheers, this just seems like a undeniable fact to me. The amount of casual linux users copying and pasting powerful sudo commands from random sources does frustrates me. People who are new to Linux see everyone as experts and are generally impatient, I have no doubt a huge number of serious mistakes and damage to Linux installs are made from this copy/paste trend.

GUI programs give the casual linux user fare less ways to muck up, it's not going to make options available that can stop Linux booting (etc) , in most applications.

nsoo said: "Terminal copy/paste insertion from MONKEY-SEE/MONKEY-DO sites makes that software-choice task possible for me at all! "

I don't understand exactly what your saying? If you know how to use Synaptic Package Manager you can browse every package in the repository and the large majority have a description of what it does. New repositories can be added (via gui or terminal) and you can browse those too.

 

[nss000]

MrCD:

<clip>
"GUI programs give the casual linux user fare less ways to muck up, it's not going to make options available that can stop Linux booting (etc) , in most applications."
<clip>

Yes, I poorly expressed how I use copy/paste. I certainly have studied ... and DO depend-on and use Synaptic Package Manager (& Update Manager) for installing Ubuntu software. But, not all desirable UBUNTU software is available thru SPM or UM. Apache Open Office is a prime example. GNOME also, until **this** install cycle, and TOR want you to DLoad their own software packages. And observant clls took advantage of the ADOBE Photoshop "accidental" exposure ... for a WINE install sans malware. REM the 30-character install-code ?

For these cases the CLI typography ranges from tricky to outrageous, while copy/paste simply works! Install-success rates go from (1/2^N) to (1/2) ! Can't beat that robust copy/paste performance.

 

[randomizer]

Anything you can install via the CLI should be accessible via Synaptic if it's in a repository. If you're just installing a standalone package then you could do that via the software centre as well by right clicking the package and picking the appropriate option (if I recall correctly). Not really any faster or slower than using the CLI. Of course this is Ubuntu-specific. The CLI will be package manager-specific at worst (commands will differ between dpkg and rpm, for example).

 

[nss000]

BigR:

It's true, I've NEVER used Ubuntu "software center". From the first it sounded like a con, undesirable complexity, and I expect to access all-available packages thru synaptic!

The issue is that not all Ubuntu-usable packages are available thru Ubuntu! That's where the CLI comes in, and THAT's when copy/paste comes to the rescue of folks who can't type multiple/extended lines of text without making errors. Call us **typographically deficient** or **memory-incompliant** as-well-as cll; we have no shame! We have working Linux systems and wish to advantage them as best we can.

 

[randomizer]

Oh I don't recommend using it all the time (unless you're a fan of App Store clones), just for installing standalone .deb packages. This used to be handled by GDebi, but that functionality was rolled into SC. You can still install and use GDebi instead though.

 

[palladin9479]

Heh Linux and your "GUI's".

Seriously though, new users need to learn to get comfortable with available GUI's before they start diving into bash or ksh though inflicting tclsh on them might make for a bit of BOFH level fun. Once they are comfortable just getting their system to work with basic software, then they can learn how to dive into root and do dangerous things.

As for sudo, I despise it greatly. You either are, or are not running with elevated privileges. If you are, you need to be careful what your doing as something dumb like rm -f /. would only be fun as the start of a story you tell your grand kids. If your not then you should be able to assume the appropriate role for whatever it is your doing. Sudo is a hack to get around dumb users doing dumb things as root.

 

[MrCloudDenton]

" It's true, I've NEVER used Ubuntu "software center". From the first it sounded like a con, undesirable complexity, and I expect to access all-available packages thru synaptic! "

Ubuntu Software Center is not a con and it's extremely simple, it just runs slowly and is missing some lesser used packages.

@nss000 I highly reccomend you get comfortable using Synaptic Package Manage as much as possible you can search and find items without knowing the exact package name. If your using a piece of software like Apache Office you can add the repository and browse it in SPM or right click on the .deb and open in USC or Gdebi, or if it's a executable installer, just right click on it, tick allow to run as executable and then right click run as executable.

@palladin9479 You're first paragraph is on the money, I've yet to come across a new Linux user that's more competent with terminal commands than GUI. By a long shot.

I'm not sure I understand exactly what you mean in the second paragraph, you don't like the fact sudo is temporary root privileges? Do you log out of your normal user the into a root account whenever you need root privileges?

 

[palladin9479]

I'm not sure I understand exactly what you mean in the second paragraph, you don't like the fact sudo is temporary root privileges? Do you log out of your normal user the into a root account whenever you need root privileges?

First you gotta know that while I like Linux and use it for various things at the house, I'm primarily a Solaris guy. That last sentence is exactly what I'm talking about, you assumed you need to log out to assume root privileges, you don't.

su - root

Now do all the stuff you need to do, then exit out of the shell back into your non-privileged environment. If there is something that needs to be done on a regular basis, then you should assign the appropriate permissions to a role and assign that role to yourself so that you can switch roles without needing full root access. There are several other permissions levels within a system other then 0 and 10000+. Good utilization of groups and group permissions other then 770 / 700 lets you get a much tighter system. Most commands can be executed by bin or adm without needing to go to root, and you only need user/group level permissions to change any file on the system.

Sudo was originally supposed to be for a one and done type common, your on a non-privileged user account and you need to do this one thing really quickly. But now it's been overused and we're to the point where you get 10~20 commands all with sudo at the front whether the command needs it or not.

 

[randomizer]

As for sudo, I despise it greatly. You either are, or are not running with elevated privileges. If you are, you need to be careful what your doing as something dumb like rm -f /. would only be fun as the start of a story you tell your grand kids. If your not then you should be able to assume the appropriate role for whatever it is your doing. Sudo is a hack to get around dumb users doing dumb things as root.

rm has had protection for / since about 2006. You'd have to explicitly remove it these days

sudo has its uses but is almost always used to grant root-equivalent permissions, probably with a really weak password too. It doesn't need to be used this way though. You can restrict what commands can be used.

Probably the best option is to avoid elevating your privileges at all and, where possible, use services that are already running with the required privileges.

 

[palladin9479]

Probably the best option is to avoid elevating your privileges at all and, where possible, use services that are already running with the required privileges.

That is why they created Role Based Access Control (RBAC). You can set it up so that only specific users are allowed to run specific commands at specific privilege levels, rather then running everything as uid/gid 0. Using sudo has been a lazy mans way of doing administrative tasks.