Skylake vs 4790k (CPU & iGPU vs GTX 650Ti)

golem

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I have the opportunity to sell my current i5-3570k, DDR3-1600 & SSD to a brother-in-law who only web surfs. Doing this would allow me to build a new stock trading computer. The current computer works well for this purpose but I'm thinking building in a little headroom by moving up to an i7-Skylake would make for one less thing to blame a poor trade on. ;-)

Now, my main question is; Might the HD-530 iGPU be as powerful as a dedicated GTX 650Ti? The 650Ti is likely overkill already as the trading platform seems to be much more CPU intensive than GPU. Via CPUID HWM the GPU see on average 35% usage, rarely spikes to just over 50%.

A secondary query would be in regards to an i7-Skylake vs i7-4790k; The i5 runs strictly single core with the current trading platform. To make use of multiple cores I run two instances of the platform. In this configuration I see on average 20%-25% utilization (occasional spikes to 60%) per core while, if I load the platform as a single instance, one core sees 40%-45% (spikes to 80%). I'm thinking if I decide to complete this sale and upgrade would it not be wise to choose the Skylake over the 4670k? Is there something I might be overlooking that would make the 4670k more desirable besides the nearly insignificant small price savings and slightly lower TDP? A cursory check seems to show there's really not much difference in price between what I paid for the current MB & DDR3 vs an 1151 and DDR4-3000. Not having to use the 650Ti would also be a great plus since I shoot for near-silent PC operation.

Any opinions would be much appreciated.
 

junkeymonkey

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I don't know what you can take from this ??

http://www.anandtech.com/show/9483/intel-skylake-review-6700k-6600k-ddr4-ddr3-ipc-6th-generation/8

seems like a card is still better overall a low end r7 240 cranks out 10 or so fps over igp ??

but the you go to this page and they say -- Conclusions on Gaming

There’s no easy way to write this.

Discrete graphics card performance decreases on Skylake over Haswell.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/9483/intel-skylake-review-6700k-6600k-ddr4-ddr3-ipc-6th-generation/10

seems like stick with haswell and get a quality card for it ?

I think haswell still got a lot of miles left in it ?
 

Darkbreeze

Retired Mod
The trading IS much more CPU intensive, no question there. Your applications are going to be mostly reliant on CPU power and the speed of your network connection whether you have a public internet connection or a dedicated trunk.

If your application is not using multiple threads it's either because it does not need them, is not well coded or is an older application that did not factor in utilization of multiple cores or threads. Single core usage is similar whether a 4690k or 4790k on the Haswell refresh chips, and if you're not using multiple threads it probably doesn't matter which chip you use. Opening another instance of your application, unless you're using different views on each window, is simply using resources for no reason. The additional thread gains you nothing in the way of faster processing unless using two screens is faster for YOU.

Since it seems a faster single core would net you better performance in your application, I'd suggest an unlocked and overclocked, or not overclocked, Skylake chip would be a better choice although it too will require a new CPU, motherboard and RAM as will a Haswell refresh configuration unless you have DDR3 1600 memory on that system and plan to reuse it. I wouldn't recommend doing that. Going with Skylake is maybe the better investment as it will likely take a longer period of time before the platform can no longer perform to the necessary level.

For what you're doing this would work fine:

PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

CPU: Intel Core i7-6700K 4.0GHz Quad-Core Processor ($350.00 @ Amazon)
CPU Cooler: CRYORIG H7 49.0 CFM CPU Cooler ($34.50 @ Newegg)
Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-Z170-HD3 ATX LGA1151 Motherboard ($114.99 @ Amazon)
Memory: G.Skill Ripjaws V Series 16GB (2 x 8GB) DDR4-2133 Memory ($109.99 @ Newegg)
Total: $609.48
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2015-08-24 23:13 EDT-0400



BUT, this would perform within about 10% of the performance you'd see on that system, for much less:

PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

CPU: Intel Core i7-4790K 4.0GHz Quad-Core Processor ($327.99 @ SuperBiiz)
Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-H97-D3H ATX LGA1150 Motherboard ($86.99 @ SuperBiiz)
Memory: G.Skill Trident X Series 16GB (2 x 8GB) DDR3-2133 Memory ($89.99 @ Newegg)
Total: $504.97
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2015-08-24 23:14 EDT-0400


And this would work within about 5% of that, for even less, and still have a much stronger system than your previous, but still fairly damn good, system:

PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

CPU: Intel Xeon E3-1241 V3 3.5GHz Quad-Core Processor ($263.99 @ SuperBiiz)
Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-H97-D3H ATX LGA1150 Motherboard ($86.99 @ SuperBiiz)
Memory: Crucial Ballistix Sport 16GB (2 x 8GB) DDR3-1600 Memory ($77.99 @ Adorama)
Total: $428.97
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2015-08-24 23:16 EDT-0400

Graphics performance is for the most part a non-issue on your required applications. Any current gen iGPU is probably good enough, AND there are no integrated graphics solutions on ANY CPU that are going to have as good of performance as any mid-tier discreet card, even your current 650 TI unless you include, possibly, the IRIS graphics on Broadwell, which isn't available anyhow. I am pretty sure even those don't come close to your 650 TI.
 

Darkbreeze

Retired Mod
IF they ever get the Xeon clock speed up to what the i7's run at, I'll never recommend anything else as the iGPU is not what I'd consider a feature worth paying an extra hundred bucks for when you can get a more powerful graphics solution for that price anyhow. For applications that are primarily single threaded, we already know the Xeon performs as well as the i5 and similarly clocked i7's. The only advantage of the 4790k is the extra 500mhz base clock speed, and the Xeon has turbo to 3.9Ghz anyhow. Of course, the 4790k has a top turbo speed of 4.4Ghz, so if you don't mind paying a bit more, it's got slightly better single core speeds.
 

endeavour37a

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Just another couple links

HD Graphics 530: Workstation
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/skylake-intel-core-i7-6700k-core-i5-6600k,4252-10.html

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/skylake-intel-core-i7-6700k-core-i5-6600k,4252-9.html

The Anandtech from monkey are also real informative, found this too
http://www.tomshardware.com/answers/id-2763830/gtx-560-intel-graphics-530.html

Ops, hit the post button, just my 2-bits for what it's worth......

I take it your rig is doing everything just fine that you are asking it to do, your basically going to upgrade just because you can sell some parts with longevity in mind, right? Perhaps pull your graphics card out and run on the HD 4000 iGPU in the 3570k to see how that works out for a while. Then you would know if the 530 will do the job for you.

If not then sell the 650Ti and pick up a 950, that would last a good long while doing what you do and has many added features the 650Ti does not, around $160. If your treading is smooth with the HD 4000 then your good to go with a 530.

If the 3570k is running fine then why not just replace it with another i5, the 6600k and save some money. Buying new parts with the future in mind it seems the newest gen would be the logical choice, just my thinking anyway. The money you save with a i5 instead of an i7 would go along way for some DDR4 memory.

The thing is you would need a Z170 MB and that would be sort of leaving you with your old board unsold. But that PCH has some very nice features and with the new 1151 socket would last a long time for all the new storage options coming to market, assuming the Intel 7th Gen will use it also down the road. Anyway just some other options to consider.

The Xeon CPUs are real good also, yet no backup graphics on the 1241. And on turbo 1 or 2 cores runs at 3900MHz but with 3 cores running it clocks down to 3700MHz and with 4 it goes down to 3600MHz, should not be a big deal though.

 
One thing to factor in is the Z170 chipset.
It has sufficient bandwidth to accommodate some of the very fast pcie based ssd drives coming next year.

One has to be careful about cpu utilization. Windows will spread the activity of a single thread over all available cores.
A cpu bound thread will look like only 25% utilization on each of 4 cores on a quad core cpu.

 

golem

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Wow, thanks for all the swift and informative replies!

The following will be a little helter skelter as I'll be jumbling replies together.

Just a bit more basic info -- 16 months ago I was using a Regor 245, integrated graphics, 4Gb DDR2 and SSD for my trading computer but at times of very high market activity was noticing charting lag (CPU maxed & RAM nearly maxed). Tech at the trading house said my CPU was most likely fine but GPU was the weak link. That's when I installed the 650Ti and, needless to say, it made no difference. I decided to do a complete upgrade to what you now see in my sig. All has been fine since. To clarify resource utilization -- I use DriveGleam which monitors cores (among other resources) individually. And yes, I do use two monitors.

The trading application (ThinkOrSwim) was developed probably 10 years ago. While it is 64-bit and receives very regular updates they have offered no time-frame for multi-coring it. The multiple instances I run are used in effort to split windows to multiple cores, no redundant views. These include three windows with multiple panes consisting of a fair number of charts, quotes and order entry.

I'd be offering up my CPU, MB & RAM (and possibly the Intel 330 although I do really like that drive). He won't need the 650Ti for the mundane use the computer will see. With that I'll still have it as a back-up if needed. I figure if I do end up performing this CPU "upgrade" the MB will be a must due to socket requirement and from what I can see it looks like upgrading to DDR4 (in any form) will offer very little noticeable improvement other than buying a little time towards MB obsolescence. In addition I can state my current amount of 8Gb's RAM seems to be the sweet spot as the most ever utilized is 46%.

When preparing to upgrade from the Regor I was warned against using any workstation processors such as the Xenon's. It was being touted they simply weren't an optimal choice which caught me by complete surprise. I expected just the opposite considering their ubiquitous use in numbers crunching environments.

I'm not a gamer so comparing the numbers on the discrete graphics and DDR3 vs 4 tests in those links leaves me at first thinking that if one of my main reasons for contemplating this "upgrade" is to go discrete I may have to think twice. Now, that is for me just a surface view as I'm not learned enough gaming wise to read between the lines as in, how much does CPU or other factors effect those numbers.

Again I really appreciate all the insight being provided. I do have a little time to run this through since he's only "almost" ready to accept his upgrade. This gives me some time to gain even more information and look for some Slick Deals along the way.
 

endeavour37a

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So it was your CPU/iGPU that was the problem, not specifically a graphics problem as the trading post said then. Sell him your stuff, hold the 650Ti and grab some nice shinny new hardware :) . It sounds like your programs would benefit little from H/T and a bit more cache in the i7 over the i5 and with the better CPU/iGPU it may just work OK without the graphics card but you would have it if needed. Or it could have been the amount of RAM you had also, swapping to disk slows down things when many windows are open. But either way it does not really matter, you solved your problems with your current set up, this new one should run even smother for you. Maybe start off with this and adjust as you wish, every parts list has to start somewhere of course.

PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

CPU: Intel Core i5-6600K 3.5GHz Quad-Core Processor ($239.99 @ Amazon)
CPU Cooler: CRYORIG H7 49.0 CFM CPU Cooler ($34.50 @ Newegg)
Motherboard: Asus Z170-A ATX LGA1151 Motherboard ($158.99 @ SuperBiiz)
Memory: G.Skill Ripjaws V Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR4-2400 Memory ($61.99 @ Newegg)
Total: $495.47
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2015-08-25 02:39 EDT-0400

The new CPU don't come with coolers anymore, you may have one but listed one anyway. Just read some ASUS Z170 reviews and they OC very easy to get your CPU running great if you want.
 

Darkbreeze

Retired Mod
The "workstation" CPUs, aren't "workstation" CPUs. They are simply CPUs. There is no realistic different between an i7-4790 and an E3 Xeon 1241v3 aside from the 4790 having the iGPU turned on and the Xeon having it disabled. The Xeon also supports ECC memory, which you can use or not use as you see fit. In your case, using ECC memory probably isn't going to offer much as you're not crunching numbers so much as displaying them via live feed.

Nothing would be any different between an i7-4790k and an E3 Xeon 1231v3 or 1241v3 aside from clock speed. They have identical core architectures, support the same technologies and instructions and run on the exact same chipset drivers. They are the same so whomever is telling you that is not knowledgeable in this area. Some of the higher end Xeon CPUs, or older Xeon CPUs, might not be good choices as they have many, many cores, but are all usually at much lower clock speeds, which is likely counterproductive for your application. The E3 Xeon's are really not server chips, nor are they strictly workstation oriented. They work fine on gaming rigs or any other kind of configuration.

I think for your investment dollars, the Skylake i5 or i7 will give you more longevity, but the Haswell Refresh configuration will definitely still do what your need for several years or more since what you currently have pretty much still does anyhow. There is really only a relatively small margin of performance difference between them anyhow. As seen here, the majority of benchmarks are very close or the same:

http://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/1260?vs=1543


While the difference between your current CPU and the Haswell Refresh chips is much greater in both single and multi-threaded synthetics. (Sorry, not a lot of comparison benchmarks there, but enough to get a good picture):

http://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/1260?vs=701

 

golem

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Another set of great post guys. Thanks!

I'm beginning to realize that if I do this so he can have a functioning PC I might as well spend roughly 10% more on my build to gain just a little extra useful life therefore it's looking like a Skylake will win out. I have a couple months before he's back in town so that should provide some time to snag any possible deals on MB & RAM while also taking in any forum chatter I can about the CPU's performance. One of my biggest concerns is the thermal performance (think TIM). I have an 212 EVO on my i5 and it's still not quite as cool as I expect it could be hence a fan not always able to idle when it should. My intention is to use the stock cooler for his PC build and keep the 212 EVO for myself.

Funny thing is I wouldn't even be entertaining this unneeded upgrade if he weren't pressing me for a build. The $250 he says it's worth to him makes it hard though for me not to do it. Pretty much a win-win situation.

Again, appreciate all the offered knowledge as it provides me with confidence in choice.
 

Darkbreeze

Retired Mod
Skylake does not come with a stock cooler so unless you mean the stock cooler that originally came with your processor, you'll need to purchase a cooler which is why I included one in the Skylake built above. The Cryorig H7 is a better performer, that's quieter and has better RAM clearance than the 212 EVO. It's also shorter so it is compatible with more cases. The Cryorig H5, for 45 bucks, is an even better option if you choose to overclock or even if you don't.

http://www.maximumpc.com/be-ready-to-bring-your-own-cpu-cooler-to-intels-skylake-s-k-series-party/
 
My thoughts:

1. Since this pc is a moneymaking pc that you see and touch every day, spend what you need to to do it right up front.

2. Since you need several instances of your app to run concurrently, buy plenty of ram. A 2 x 8gb kit should be plenty. fast speed is not that important.

3. Consider spending an extra $100 for a i7-6700K. It is a better binned chip that runs faster at stock, no overclocking required. Availability will be limited until September, so a i5-6600K will do if you are in a hurry.
Since it is a 14nm chip, your hyper212 will be plenty for cooling and quiet.

The integrated graphics can handle several monitors, including a 4k monitor.
The speed is suitable for anything except fast twitch gaming. One can always add a discrete graphics card later for that.
Any Z170 motherboard from your favorite brand should suffice.
4. You have two monitors, and that is good. But, consider a large 4k monitor. I am thinking 40" or 50".
You can put multiple windows with charts and rearrange the size and position as you wish.
I know the 40" Philips BDM4065UC to be excellent, and there are larger 4k TV units that would be good also.
What you do will depend on the desk space available.

5. Use a ssd for windows and your critical files. Today, all perform similarly. I like Samsung EVO and Intel 730 for reliability
Probably 500gb will suffice. Next year, there will be some drives that will be considerably faster(and costlier).
You may or may not want/need to use one.
Add a conventional hard drive to be used for backup and any large files.

6. How much room do you have for a tower?
I like the Silverstone TJ-08E or PS-07 M-ATX cases. They are a bit more compact. They also are quiet and have washable intake filters that will keep your parts free of dust.
I would expect them to be all but inaudible if located 1 m. away.
 

junkeymonkey

Polypheme
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''IF they ever get the Xeon clock speed up ''- I thought what if there was ''K'' models [e3 1241v3 ''K'' ] unlocked . the igp is something I could do with out overall

I think regardless what ever way you go its going to be a 10% gain/loss then at what price point ? all 3 build listed above are capable of the job

like with skylake if with that may as well do the ddr4 for that gain but then added cost you could save with ddr3 but then if that I don't see haswell hurting you and got plenty of life - I think between sandy ive and haswell the cost aint worth the gain unless its just went down and you had to rebuild something - skylake is newer and got that slight cost overhead over haswell with ddr4 used ?

with skylake as everything else in time thing will get less cost like with ddr3 memory was high so a 2 stick kit back then was say 180 bucks can now be got for 78 bucks or so ?


 

golem

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Ha! I thought I wore you all out but I get up and find more useful info. ;)

Skylake does not come with a stock cooler so unless you mean the stock cooler that originally came with your processor...
Luckily I do have the OEM 3570k cooler to use in that build.

Since this pc is a moneymaking pc that you see and touch every day, spend what you need to to do it right up front.
Therein lies my curse. I'm like Rockefeller in that frugality takes hold regardless of current wealth though I do my best in not allowing it to effect requirements. In that vein I currently have the trading platform running full-boat and am using only 45% of the 8Gb's RAM and, during the mid-day market, active cores are bouncing from 9%-26% usage and idle cores are seeing 2%-10%. This has me visualizing more RAM as gluttonous while on the other hand I envision a move to DDR4 and Skylake as "relative" future proofing.

I also like the fact that, if the iGPU is robust enough, it'll now allow a max of three monitors if need arises. As for monitor(s), I have put serious thought into going a single large 4k to replace the current 28" 16x10 and 22" 16x9 combo but the single factor holding me back is short-order replaceability if required although I expect that will soon be a non-issue with 4k being the new norm.

I've been reusing for years a few very inexpensive but also very robust and solid mid-tower cases. Cooling isn't optimal but after a number of mods for fan placements and adding filtering they've proven to be gold. Have to admit thought, they AIN'T pretty! :D

with skylake as everything else in time thing will get less cost...
Slipping out of my cheapskate mode for a moment I have to admit the premium for Skylake seems to be minor while for DDR4 it's looking minimal. Add to that, selling the current components just about halves the entire cost.


Btw, sorry I've not picked any particular reply as the thread solution. That would be impossible as all have offered invaluable insight. Thanks again everyone!
 

endeavour37a

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Sorry to say but your OEM Intel cooler is really a non starter for you if you plan on any sort of OC on your 6600k, the CRYORIG H7 or H5 are moderate coolers that have a very good price/performance ratio. Honestly, even if you do not plan on OCing your CPU at first I would still not use a stock Intel cooler, a good cooler adds longevity in the long run to an expensive bit of silicone.

I take it you are solid on the Skylake rig, great! Even Rockefeller knew where the smart money went :) . The percentage game fun to kick around but as you say a bit of ""relative" future proofing" is what you are chasing in this move, if I read you right anyway. 8GB of DDR4 2400 should serve you well as you say and be a might faster than your current 1600 as icing on the cake, you can always add more later if the need arises.

Perhaps go somewhere and take a look at some 4k screens before you pull the trigger on that expensive move. Just thinking about the type of work you do and the text/graph size in native node you would be seeing. Also they are still pretty expensive and regardless what Intel says their 530 can do they need some good hardware to drive them. I could be all wrong but screen area would be of more importance than crystal clear line/bar graphs, as I say I could be all wrong. Just thinking about the cost here and what would benefit you most.

Not sure 4k is the new norm just yet, they have amazing imagery of course but unless they are BIG text is rather small, and the bigger the more cash. The QHD screens are really starting to take off it seems with many hitting the market at good prices, large TN panels are are coming down in price.

Most here are not talking with you for a "best solution" thing, we just try to bring other options to light and some advice.
 

golem

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Thanks for the reply endeavour37a!

My explanation may not have been worded too well. The stock cooler would be brought out of storage and go along with the 3570k. I'd most likely be mounting the currently in use 212 EVO on the new CPU.

Yea, 4k is not the new norm...yet. I find my 28" 16x10 Hanns-G at 1080 to be absolutely perfect for font legibility at my normal viewing distance. With that I'm figuring I'd have to go a minimum of 50" 4k to get near the same scaling.

In all honesty, my current mindset is screaming Skylake but give it a few nights, additional consideration and gobs more research, heck, I might could end up with a Haswell or Xeon. Interestingly everything after my Pentium 200MMX was AMD up 'til the i5 early last year. Would love to go back but even the latest FX's don't instill confidence in regards to my intended application. The Regor 245 is still humming along in my other low stress multimedia computer (video recording and simple edits).

Most here are not talking with you for a "best solution" thing, we just try to bring other options to light and some advice.
That is absolutely why I've come here! All this information is exceedingly helpful as I don't spend the time I should on regular basis to keep up with computer tech. I usually simply research-cram when the impetus arises.

 

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