Small case for big GPU

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m.baadsgaard

Dec 5, 2018
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Hey guys.
I need myself a new PC and wanna build it myself.
Haven't done this in 10 years (literally) so thought I'd ask around.
It does feel a little "Hello peeps please solve my problem" to just ask, but I have a few requirements and having a hard time really figuring out what fits me, so please bear with me.

I got space for a case that is no larger than 39x39cm (and whatever width needed), but smaller is better. However, I understand the need for good ventilation.
The case needs to have filtering to some extent, too, as it gets pretty dusty where I live.
I want to get an RTX 2070 and I can not figure out if the short version is sacrificing any performance, so a casethat would fit the full 31cm version would be perfect.
Clean looks and minimum glowy/colored stuff is preferred. It's gonna stand under a desk in the farthest corner anyway.

Anyone got any good suggestions for a case with these requirements?
I'd say the budget is ~£90

I am also pretty open to suggestions on how to go about cooling to minimize dust and heat in a relatively small case. But I can't go spend an additional £200 on watercooling.

Anyway, hoping for some interesting suggestions and thank you in advance!
 
Solution
Barty1884
Depends on the workload - faster is usually a good idea, but if you're working with larger reads/writes, capacity might be more of a concern than speed.

In the case, technically a GPU is drawing air in above the PSU shroud. It's not a great implementation (I had the Phanteks EnthooEvolv ITX with the same setup), but it works.

That Metallicgear case looks great for your needs - is it available in the UK?

The mATX case is much the same as the NanoS in layout.


Do you know whether your workloads/programs used favour AMD or Intel particularly? Or whether they're single thread dependent? Or multithreaded?


An 8c/16t 2700X seems like a good option, and 2x16GB 3000MHz gives you both "fast" memory, and maxes out the capacity of the...
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Barty1884

Barty1884

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What motherboard are you going with? Or at least, what form factor?
A full-sized ATX is going to be 12" / 30cm and with a PSU mounted below, hitting <39cm is going to be pretty tough.

Lots of mITX options exist - and some really small footprint cases that'll support full-sized GPUs.
https://uk.pcpartpicker.com/product/RgVBD3/silverstone-rvz03b-mini-itx-desktop-case-rvz03b
https://uk.pcpartpicker.com/product/GsZ2FT/fractal-design-case-fdcanode202bk
https://uk.pcpartpicker.com/product/zmgPxr/silverstone-case-sstrvz02b

Soemthing like the H200 is more traditionally setup, and still meets your requirements..... although airflow isn't too great.
https://uk.pcpartpicker.com/product/TJNv6h/nzxt-h200-black-mini-itx-tower-case-ca-h200b-b1

The fully filtered aspect is going to be a bit tough to meet..... at least stock, out of the box.
 
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M

m.baadsgaard

Dec 5, 2018
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I actually thought the NZXT h series had the dust part figured out. With filter in front and top.

About form factor; Standing is preferred. It should fit in one of those IKEA typa A-frames for table legs wooden thingies. For motherboard size, I can't really figure out what the difference is besides size and number of slots.I guess I don't need anything but slot for GPU, 2 sticks of RAM for dual channel and then maybe an option for those newer SSDs..? Aren't mSATA and M.2 mounted right on the motherboard? Don't know if they are worth the extra cost...
Besides that, are smaller MBs generally lower bandwidth or something..?

 
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Barty1884

Barty1884

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Smaller motherboards lack expansion slots, and can be a little trickier to work with....... the VRMs can be cut back a little, but that's not as common on modern boards.

M.2 mount directly to the board, yes. mSATA aren't really a thing these days (they exist, it just never quite took off the way people predicted).

Are they "worth it"? Typically, no - not for the average user. If you perform workloads that'll benefit noticeably from the faster speed, sure. But to 9/10 users, they wont 'feel' a difference between an M.2 (either SATA or PCIe) and a traditional SATA3, 2.5" SSD.
 
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M

m.baadsgaard

Dec 5, 2018
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I had a read-up on them SSDs.. So there are M.2 sockets, good ol' SATA and then some that slot right into a PCIe port?
All of which seems to be available in boards of the Micro ATX format which also often comes with 4 RAM slots.
So I take it, given that I just want a finished system that I can start using and not fiddle with much, that a Micro-ATX would be the way to go and then find a case where I can shove a modern-sized GPU into.

I'd argue that in day-to-day work (but not so much in games) SSD speed plays a pretty significant role, so speed there is important, though obviously within reason... Let's say.. I want the RTX 2070 of SSDs, not the 2080 or Titan ;)
 
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M

m.baadsgaard

Dec 5, 2018
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I found a case that absolutely suits me, except it is mini ITX.. :/
https://www.fractal-design.com/home/product/cases/define-series/define-nano-s
It even supports a 31cm long video card!
So I guess I am looking for something similar... I don't know about the dust situation either.

Small BTW: Am I using the forum wrong? It looks more like an answers sort of place like stackexchange than a typical forum. But I can't find anything in the rules about this...
 
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Barty1884

Barty1884

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Well yes & no.
M.2 is simply a form factor. The actual interface used by a given M.2 SSD can either be NVMe/PCIe....OR, SATA based. If SATA, there's no really speed gain, but no cables required.

OR, you go with a traditional 2.5" form factor SSD - where speeds are lower vs NVMe, but still plenty for most users.

There are SSDs that are PCIe slot mounted, but those are typically pretty high end & overkill for most.



Doesn't sound like you need mATX from an expansion perspective. Couple of DIMMs, 1x GPU and an M.2 or two.
All needs are met with mITX - which will help you out in the overall case size you're looking for.



Agree to disagree on it then. While speeds *are* important, the difference between a decent 2.5" drive vs the best M.2 NVMe drive .... for example, would take boot times from say 10seconds, to 9 seconds.
A game load time from 15 seconds, to 12.
Measurable? Yes. Actually likely to notice without sitting with a stopwatch? Not so much.


Yes, you need mITX for that case - any idea which platform you're looking at? Dust filtering is decent on the NanoS.

No, you're in the right place - when you only have the one responded, you end up just going the back & forth.

What kind of budget are you working with? ? What are you trying to achieve (gaming, editing, streaming etc)? And do you have any specific choices already made?
 
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M

m.baadsgaard

Dec 5, 2018
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Well, I really need a machine with a beefy GPU and fast memory.
It's for gaming and game development, including handling the massive project we are working on at work these days.
There is a lot of constanly reading and writing to a from disk, hence my emphasis there.

Budget is flexible, I was hoping to get below £1500.

I had a longer look at that case I mentioned and realized that the GPU would be blowing straight into the PSU.
Won't that be a problem?
In which case, I came across a much sexier alternative:
http://metallicgear.com/products/Neo-Series-mITX

Here it blows outside, which is nice, since it will be elevated on small wooden beams anyway.
But is there a downside to mini-itx, besides expandability?
Because otherwise there is this one
http://metallicgear.com/products/Neo-Series-uATX
Which is exactly too tall, but I will do a re-measure of the space and see if it would be tight...
The a-frame has the legs leaning inwards a bit, so it is sort of a trade-off between height and depth.
Tall requires narrower and vice versa.
 
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Barty1884

Barty1884

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Apr 16, 2015
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Depends on the workload - faster is usually a good idea, but if you're working with larger reads/writes, capacity might be more of a concern than speed.

In the case, technically a GPU is drawing air in above the PSU shroud. It's not a great implementation (I had the Phanteks EnthooEvolv ITX with the same setup), but it works.

That Metallicgear case looks great for your needs - is it available in the UK?

The mATX case is much the same as the NanoS in layout.


Do you know whether your workloads/programs used favour AMD or Intel particularly? Or whether they're single thread dependent? Or multithreaded?


An 8c/16t 2700X seems like a good option, and 2x16GB 3000MHz gives you both "fast" memory, and maxes out the capacity of the mITX board.
Whether your workload will benefit much from >16GB though, I don't know.

PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

CPU: AMD - Ryzen 7 2700X 3.7 GHz 8-Core Processor (£289.20 @ Aria PC)
Motherboard: ASRock - Fatal1ty X470 Gaming-ITX/ac Mini ITX AM4 Motherboard (£163.97 @ More Computers)
Memory: ADATA - XPG GAMMIX D10 32 GB (2 x 16 GB) DDR4-3000 Memory (£212.81 @ CCL Computers)
Storage: Samsung - 960 EVO 500 GB M.2-2280 Solid State Drive (£99.99 @ Amazon UK)
Storage: Crucial - MX500 1 TB 2.5" Solid State Drive (£134.98 @ BT Shop)
Video Card: MSI - GeForce RTX 2070 8 GB Video Card (£459.98 @ CCL Computers)
Power Supply: Corsair - TXM Gold 550 W 80+ Gold Certified Semi-Modular ATX Power Supply (£67.46 @ Amazon UK)
Total: £1428.39
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2018-12-06 18:38 GMT+0000
 
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Solution
M

m.baadsgaard

Dec 5, 2018
15
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Thank you very much for your help, much appreciated!
Checked out what you put together, that is really something!

I work with Unity, which is right now dual thread, potentially, but now they are rolling out job systems for delegating game code across threads better. Then we just need our game to use it. Currently we run a rather hefty additional module on a separate thread, so we are at 3 threads.
So yea, potential utilization of multi-core, but not the full-fat type, like simulations.

Besides that, there is Houdini which is multi-threaded. This comes mostly in handy when doing physics and fluid dynamics simulation, which our license doesn't give access to. So for me and my simpler mesh manipulation the multi-threading is not excessively utilized.
For 3D art packages, like ZBrush and Maya, it is almost exclusively RAM needs. Multi-threading is a thing for the offline rendering work.

For the case, yea, I found it on Amazon at least:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Metallic-Gear-MG-NE410_BK01-MATX-Black/dp/B07GXW2JBM/ref=sr_1_4?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1544134298&sr=1-4&keywords=metallic+gear+micro
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07GXVPK24/ref=sspa_dk_hqp_detail_aax_0?psc=1

I just re-measured the space. I can actually fit 41cm at 41cm height. At the narrowest point, 48cm up, it is 39cm.
So the 41cm tall micro-ATX would fit with 1cm of clearance on each side. A bit tight, but could work.
The question is just, how much will I save or gain by going Micro-ATX over Mini-ITX.

Oh, and the larger comes with a dust-pan. http://metallicgear.com/sites/default/files/2018-09/Neo%20Micro%20Salestool.jpg :D
 
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Barty1884

Barty1884

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Honestly, the mITX seems like a better fit to me.

With the PSU mounted above the motherboard your GPU will have access to draw in fresh air from below the case.
The mATX variant is much the same as the NanoS - solid PSU shroud, limiting airflow.

Not horrible, and won't impact lifespan of the GPU or anything, just a bit warmer than necessary - and the fan will likely have to work a bit harder.

With limited core/thread utilization, you may want to consider an Intel platform.
I can't see a huge difference in those workloads, unless anything specifically favours Intel, but still.

Unlocked Intel chips don't ship with CPU coolers, so that drives the pricepoint up on a per core/thread basis.
A 6c i5 + cooler + board is in the same general pricepoint as an 8c/16t Ryzen chip + board (stock cooler included & decent).



 
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m.baadsgaard

Dec 5, 2018
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Would it make sense to get an intel chip and watercooling then? I guess it would be £50 extra. On Amazon there is a user review with a guy who went with that, but then it doesn't look like there is space for an RTX 2070. It also makes me think that maybe the rest of the system wouldn't keep up with that... https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07GXVPK24/ref=sspa_dk_hqp_detail_aax_0?psc=1&fbclid=IwAR0LHEO3ji7E4Z1SUDEdTIdN0wlV19ogXiTcRMh3ruxEKsMbsdZZMPBa8qY (just scroll down)
 
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Barty1884

Barty1884

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Water cooling is entirely you call.

Personally, I wouldn't opt for the Intel chip + an AIO.
If you wanted to stick an AIO on a Ryzen chip, that's an option too though.

As for GPU support - the case supports GPUs up to 345mm in length.
The 2070 I linked above is 309mm.

The remaining 36mm isn't likely to be sufficient. At best/thinnest, a Rad will be 27mm or so. The absolute thinnest fans I'm aware of (that wouldn't be great on an AIO) are 13mm

You can get 2070's in the 270-280mm range, which would leave you sufficient space for a 30mm Rad and 25mm fans with a little room to spare.
https://uk.pcpartpicker.com/products/compare/CGYLrH,mYYLrH/
 
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M

m.baadsgaard

Dec 5, 2018
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May I ask why you prefer Ryzen, personally, even in this case? I have always gone Nvidia/Intel, but honestly, not for any particularly good reason and I kinda like AMDs approach to some things.

And about the AIO: Yea I can't tell if it is 345mm because of the fan in the front or if the illustrations are just not precise. If the fan in the front is 25mm, then the total is 370mm, which leaves 50mm for AIO (just did a quick google for possible specs) and 320mm for the GPU.
I don't have any idea about benefits to water cooling. More quiet I guess? OC capability? But maybe they might leak :/
 
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Barty1884

Barty1884

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Value, mostly.

What they've brought to the table, and the pricepoint it's at is really knocking it out of the park.
For workloads requiring ~4 cores, you should be seeing 4.3GHz and, while not directly measurable vs Intel's 4.3GHz on the 8600K, the added core/thread count makes it a no brainer to me.... generally speaking.

You'd need to consider the specifics of your workload & any benefits than can be had going one route or the other.
All else being equal, I'd go the Ryzen route - but all may not be equal (in fact, it's highly unlikely to be equal).


You're right, the illustration isn't great. Normally, you'd see "maximum GPU clearance" which is the absolute maximum you could physically fit (ie no fan installed), but in this instance it's really not clear.


As for the benefits of water cooling.... that's a debated topic.
The absolute high-end of water cooling should see lower temps, but anything mid-range etc would be lucky to be competitive with high-end air. High end air is usually in the same pricepoint as a mid-range AIO.

Similarly, on the noise front - an AIO pump can be loud, and included fans are not always the quietest.
So the noise assumption is not always accurate. Higher end air from Noctua or be Quiet is actually more likely to be closer to "silent". Whether either route is particularly noisy, especially when you consider a GPUs fan &/or case fans can add some noise to the equation, is debatable.

An AIO can be beneficial in smaller cases (smaller than the Neo Mini IMO), as you may be restricted for airflow and lack sufficient clearance for a decent cooler. The tradeoff there though, is there's rarely active cooling for the VRMs which can be problematic, depending on the design.

As you mentioned, an AIO adds additional points of failure. Leaks, pumps etc.
If an AIO fails, at best, you replace it outright. At worst, it leaks and damages other components (rare, but it happens).

A fan fails on an air cooler, you can generally replace just the fan. Much more economical - AND, some systems could even get away with running passively on a CPU cooler with no fan without causing any damage (it'll throttle, more than likely.. and really isn't recommended, but it *can*)
 
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M

m.baadsgaard

Dec 5, 2018
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And would you recommend replacing the Ryzen stock CPU fan? For noise or cooling..

If I want my low dust requirement I guess I also need to make a decision on additional case vents of closing off some of the other holes.
 
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Barty1884

Barty1884

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Not necessarily. I would certainly try out the stock cooler & see how you fare initially. The stock cooler is surprisingly good.
The small(ish) nature of the case might impact temps, but i wouldn't invest in an aftermarket cooler until I'd tested it out.

For dust, provided you opt for positive pressure & your intakes are filtered, you should be fine.
Negative will draw in dust through all openings, which makes it nearly impossible to filter everywhere air could be pulled in.
 
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M

m.baadsgaard

Dec 5, 2018
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The RTX doesn't seem to pull air in with the new dual fan setup they now utilize, so it is down to how the case fans run. So they should all be filtered and pull air into the case? And by all, I mean that single one in the case I guess...
 
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m.baadsgaard

Dec 5, 2018
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Sorry. I.mean from the outside. Didn't the blower design either push air out or pull air in from outside the case?
 
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Barty1884

Barty1884

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Neither style GPU will pull air directly in from the outside, unless it's facing an an intake or vent.
The GPU in the NeoMini will pull in from the outside, as there is a filtered opening on the bottom.

GPUs will generally 'pull' air from their surroundings - they're not usually facing an intake.
So, it'll generally pull ambient from above the PSU, or potentially fresh air if there's an intake fan at the lower front of a normal case .
 
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M

m.baadsgaard

Dec 5, 2018
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Alright, yea thought it actually had openings in the interface in the slot next to where the screen connectors are, for passing air.
I haven't bought a GPU while the blower design was a thing. My last stand alone GPU was a GeForce 3 :p

Thank you for the help! Now it's just waiting for next paycheck and then double checking that this is the configuration that suits me :)
 
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M

m.baadsgaard

Dec 5, 2018
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If anyone is coming by this post in the not too distant future (as all of this probably will change in January):

I went with the above build but a few modifications:
The NvMe SSD: Samsung 970 EVO is a few pounds CHEAPER than the 960.
The PSU: the 650w version is only £0.3 more
Motherboard: You can save £50 on the B450 model with the only downside being some of the OC features and the WiFi/bluetooth speed. Same SVM.
 
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