So, so tired. Or why Crysis is a poop head.

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trueflu

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royalcrown- so your reasoning in the face of my rational examples is "no it's not, na nanna boo boo!" Give examples, maybe actually address my reasoning.

Jaydeejohn- why haven't I prooven it's needed. All working capitalistic models involve social reform, the ones faltering such as ours "I assume the US for you" have the most sprawling capitalism.

Again the pc models working are the most accessible, the ones graphically accessible to the majority of users.
 

speedbird

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I never said it wasn't, but point being the PC is expandable so it has more potential.
 

getme

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What is really hurting PC gaming?

LCD monitors with fixed resolution and terrible scaling built in, not so long ago you could play games on a lower end rig with 800x600 resolution and not have it look like warmed over $hit. now with LCDs you can lower the resolution to get FPS up but be prepared it ain't gonna look nuthin' like your friends 360 or PS3.

 
My interpretation of being an enthusiast doesnt allow much room for "socialistic ideals". I may be wrong, but everyone wants the best they can get. Im not saying markets never change, as I think were seeing a chnge right now in the gpu market, with everyone complaining baout the price of nVidias newest, while ATI is giving great performance and bang for buck with the 4 series. BUT, what youre saying is removing something to dear to a enthusiasts being, that being choice. That goes against the very grain of being an enthusiast, and I hinted at it before I had to come out and simply tell you, but that was before you insulted me. Yes, Im american, and yes I prefer choice and the freedoms and resposibilities that vcome with it. If I had to pay exhorbitant prices for electronics, or only have 1 or 2 things offered to me, I wouldnt be as happy as I am. That freedom I like, and if theres something wrong with it, then go where it doesnt exist, I have no problems with that, I just see it different than you
 

trueflu

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Huh? No I'm saying that if programmers design and optimize around a specific hardware set then we'll have an affordable card with fantastic ability and longevity. Could you run those games on other hardware sets? Yes. Would there be no high end market? No. I'm not talking about standardizing for the sake of fair play, but rather optimizing so that we can actually use the technology we have.

because of optimizing in the middle market people would actually game on their computers again, and could call the experience both better looking than consoles and more affordable. Who wouldn't want to PC game?

There would always be a High end you could buy. So you were arguing with who? I didn't claim anything you argued against.

I'm an American too, just one willing to improve the system by saying something about it's flaws and the misnomer of FREEDOM, even if it's just the pc gaming model.

But since I've been the one trying to do all the innovating here, do you really think the current model works just fine? If not how would you improve it? If you'll remember my post started with a suggestion for innovation, while all responses to me where, to the last man, criticism. So please unfurl your abstract association and come up with something better. Does a post like this really have to be smear the queer, I wanted discussion not a conflict with the guards of the PC Ivory Tower.
 


Once again, that's what sliders are for dude. You can find them in that area called "options".

because of optimizing in the middle market people would actually game on their computers again, and could call the experience both better looking than consoles and more affordable.

They already are better looking than consoles and are also more affordable too. Educate yourself before go off on a crazy rant/whine.

Who wouldn't want to PC game?

The same people who despite everyone's efforts still bought an FX5200, X300, GF7300, X2300 or any intel GPU.

If not how would you improve it?

Get rig of the people who call themselves gamers but own rigs that are less powerful than my laptop, and cost less than my next pair of skiis. They're the people crippling gaming, because the masses suck and hold back those who want better than console graphics/options.

If you'll remember my post started with a suggestion for innovation, while all responses to me where, to the last man, criticism. So please unfurl your abstract association and come up with something better. Does a post like this really have to be smear the queer, I wanted discussion not a conflict with the guards of the PC Ivory Tower.

If you don't get it you don't belong in PC gaming.
It's not for everyone, and I hope they never push to make it so because it would simply be a race to the bottom, not something that pushes technology forward. If it were up to the dumba$$ masses all games would be focused on the intel series of GPUs. [:thegreatgrapeape:5]
 

lameness

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I really don't understand the bashing that crysis gets...it may not be the greatest game of all time but its still pretty darn awesome, IMO the graphics are stunning...not just on ultra high spec hardware, but looks great even when played at medium settings on pretty cheap systems.

It is ahead of its time, but IMO it wasn't anywhere near ahead of the hardware as oblivion was. I first played oblivion on a 7900gt which had just cost me about £150 and i got crappy framerates at 1024*768 with low settings. When crysis came out i played it on 8800gt which had just cost me about £150 and i got crappy framerates at 1600*1050 with med/high settings.

Oblivion left me thinking....this game would look good on a ridiculously fast system....on mine it looks very average.

Crysis left me thinking...wow this game looks stunning, i want another 8800gt to go sli!
 

San Pedro

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Oblivion was like crysis too, but I thought it had better scaling. I was able to play at 1280x1024 with my x800xl, just had to turn off shadows and grass. The rest of the options I was able to leave on high.

The game does look much better with grass everywhere though.
 

trueflu

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Grape- you don't understand what optimizing is. This should of course end your reasoning here.

Modern graphical options in games are not optimizing that programing to a specific hardware set.

But let me state this clearly for the sake of further rationalized debate in the future.

To make a counter argument you must take a portion of my real world examples such as "cuda programming mutiplies the power of gpu's a hundred fold" and dispute why this is not an accurate model of optimizing.

In fact what I was doing when noting macs and cuda was disputing the redundant argument you just made. But unfortunate no one has addressed my examples.

Frankly no one seams to understand or recognize the concept of optimizing. They would also have relinquish their arguments if they did. Right now they just sound silly.

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The middle is not better looking than consoles. You seam not to have done your research. Take a look at Gears of War, and numerous other games.

Besides this any card costing between 200-300 would likely require a new power supply effectively adding another 100 bucks. So really your middle is not the middle. God forbid other hardware conflicts arise. Oh wait, they will.

I will say this once more, a plug and play middle would support the high end. If you don't get this, than you don't understand how markets work.

Concept- Poetry. People still write it, people still read it, but the average literate person will never read it. They used to, why don't they now? Because modern poetry is so convoluted and pretentious that Robert Frost has already had five epileptic seizures in his grave.

Gary Gygax is in pain and he is reaching out to you GrapeApe can't you hear the worms screaming in his brain "Help us Mr. Ape, gamers need you, take up your +3 dagger of letter opening and carve out a place in every PC's wooden chest so that all beating hearts might find a home at long last."

Don't you like people's hearts Grappy? I do, and they are warm, wet, and sticky, and they need people like us. Gamers like us.

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trueflu

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Do you projectile vomit when you see the sun? Or just when men with beards touch you?

People who type like this should be interred in a vegetable garden.
 

mihirkula

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trueflu ....

1) you have no right to judge people's typing since your own typing is but appalling and downright horrendous.

no one seams to understand or recognize the concept of optimizing

You seam not to have done your research

2) you seem to have escaped from some sort of an Asylum ... since you claim to know everything about optimization and say that we don't know sh!t about it ... and further act like a retard by typing sentences which have no relevance, no argument, no point and no value. You obviously know nothing about optimization and you very obviously know nothing about PC games, their sale index and the advantage of a medium end PC compared to a console. Your poetry insinuations but accentuate the fact that you're a profuse retard. Don't think that i don't know poetry...i do know what poetry is... and i also know what an irrationally retarded bunkum codswallop of a twaddling claptrap is. Your point of view being the latter.

3) Moreover its frightfully obvious that you're crying over the fact that you can't play Crysis on your computer .... i'll give you some advice ... instead of bullsh!tting over a forum about something you've no idea about, spend your time and energy on saving some money.

4) Do NOT by any chance ridicule any of us... you should be grateful that everyone here has spent some time in trying to explain things to you. No one is dying to entertain your ludicrous drivel. If you've noticed by now, this is tom's hardware forums and bullsh!tting is not tolerated.

5) Read this post once again and learn to behave.
 


No, I know what optimizing is and I know the limits and the benefit.

What you are saying has little to do with optimization, since you could optimize for the highest and lowes end of the spectrum and thos in the middle would still whine about it not being optimized.
You also seem to think it's something that developers don't already do and you also seem to think it comes at no cost and it's just a question of lack of will.

Modern graphical options in games are not optimizing that programing to a specific hardware set.

Didn't say it was, but that helps people customize what options they want which personalizes the game experience to optimize it for the individual's tastes.
Optimizing code, chosing models, shaders, etc to achieve benefits is limited, and requires time (thus also money) to achieve, and the developer must weigh the concerns of releasing a game in anywhere near a timely fashion with the return on those efforts.

To make a counter argument you must take a portion of my real world examples such as "cuda programming mutiplies the power of gpu's a hundred fold" and dispute why this is not an accurate model of optimizing.

That's not a real world example, it's using a developer buzz word/feature you obviously don't understand and applying in a fashion it's not intended for.
CUDA is a hardware strategy for using C to have GPUs do not traditional GPU tasks, this has little to do with optimizing a game, no more than CTM does, other than to take over specific tasks like physics which are currently low level and until recently strictly the domain of CPUs. Cuda might help in Cg compiles, but that doesn't optimize the game.
Machine language would be faster, and CUDA isn't going to help a GPU do it's graphics tasks any better it's for non-GPU tasks.
So your use of it is a perfect example that you don't understand what's involved or even the tools you mention.


In fact what I was doing when noting macs and cuda was disputing the redundant argument you just made. But unfortunate no one has addressed my examples.

Macs and Cuda have nothing to do with Crysis, or Graphics or optimizing games other than where they could take the load off of other resources (which is being done for future) , the reason we didn't address it is the same reason people don't address other crackpot/pipe ideas.

Frankly no one seams to understand or recognize the concept of optimizing. They would also have relinquish their arguments if they did. Right now they just sound silly.

Frankly, that describes you to a T.


 

trueflu

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mihirkula- I spell like an ape, but I can hit like one.

My point was that Shadow gets his panties from Hot Topic when his mother decides the old ones have too many brown stains.

The part about poetry was a metaphor. You didn't need to "know" poetry to understand it as a literary device. But we don't want to get technical here since you, of course, have not.

Please be more specific than "you don't know what your talking about" it would help us have an actual conversation rather than an unending snit fit.

I've only insulted people who abused their ignorance to spit on the hand of the good faith that I offered. Or those like shadow who actually still have the word "shadow" in their forum names.

Can play Crysis, don't like it. It would look nice if I passed on paying rent and invested $400 more in my comp.

nothing has been explained. I've made it obvious why this is so. None of my points have been refuted. Not even one. By anyone. At all. Since not a single one has been directly addressed. *edit: written and posted while Grape posted*

Largely because people think that the graphical slider in a game is for optimizing when clearly this is not what I meant. As I have repeated over and over again. and again. and some more. and gave multiple examples of. examples viewable and estimable in the real world.

What most of you are really saying is "I don't think this will work" so why didn't you keep it that simple if you intended to go no further?
 

trueflu

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Grape- pc games are not being optimized to specific hardware sets. This is my point. I didn't address the cost. I've noted specific examples of the benefits of optimization. You just say I'm not right, not why I'm not right.

With a robust market the cost, even if so awful, would be worth it.

I know CUDA won't help the gaming market, but it is a very pertinent example of Optimizing in the real world. I didn't claim we'd get more gaming power out of it.

Macs have far better optimizing on their OS's than do PC's. Again a pertinent example of what optimizing can do. Not an example of how GPU optimizing should be applied.

Well better luck next time.
 

spongebob

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Optimizing - you seem to throw that word around a quite a bit. You seem to have a clear idea of what you expect to gain from optimizing, but I'm not sure you know what's involved. Just to know where you're coming from, could you tell us precisely what you think needs to be done to optimize an application to a specific video card? Just to know where I'm coming from, I've spent a few years in the game publishing industry and from my point of view you seem to have a high-level grasp of what you're talking about, and don't really understand the Console/PC dichotomy or the dynamics of the game publishing industry. But then that's just me. :pt1cable:
 


This is my point, you don't iclude cost in both time and money, and you cannot speak intelligently to this subject.

You seem to think if Crytek just sent a million bucks to some account somewhere then Crysis would be more optimized.
Most games are optimized, within the time frame of their development cycle, and even then they still ship late almost every time.

Spend too much time optimizing for this years hardware/API by the time you ship new hardware and API are out that make your actions maybe not worthless, but worth less.

With a robust market the cost, even if so awful, would be worth it.

Based on what other than your guess?

I know CUDA won't help the gaming market, but it is a very pertinent example of Optimizing in the real world. I didn't claim we'd get more gaming power out of it.

CUDA's not about optimizing, it's about utilizing, it a tool that allows you different options,. Optimizing would be what is done with CUDA or CTM to achieve the task as efficiently as possible. Your stateent's like saying they shouldn't use OpenGL they should use DX to optimize games, or the inverse of that, as if either would solve the problem of 'optimization'.

Macs have far better optimizing on their OS's than do PC's. Again a pertinent example of what optimizing can do. Not an example of how GPU optimizing should be applied.

Not an example at all, more of an assumption on your part, and one without support.
OSX does some things more effificiently and others less so. Once again it's like you invoking the term CUDA with little to no understanding of how it's supposed to help other than reading somewhere that "cuda programming mutiplies the power of gpu's a hundred fold" as if it were just like adding a part to the computer as an overclocker.

I think Spongebob's right, your lack of understanding is going to mean that you're going to complain about this abstract idea of 'optimization' without the ability to even understand the answer.

Simply put for you, Optimization takes time and money, the return on that investment needs to be large enough to warrant it, mostly it's not since no one cares if the low end doesn't have all the options as long as the high end buyers do since they're buying on launch day while the bargain gamer is waiting for the price drop.
Also, it's better to build it efficiently from the start that to try and fix it at the end with optimizations. The biggest problem for that with cutting edge games and hardware is that the platforms/hardware you're building your game to play on don't exist when you're in early-mid development. Your request to build for the middle means you push the game development timeframe back a year or two. So either you Can have Crysis last fall or next year. Most people would take last fall, and learn to Move The Sliders To The LEFT.

(edited for typos after looking at the quote below) :eek:
 
Simply put for you, Optimization takes time and money, the return on that investment needs to be large enough to warrant it, mostly it's not since no one cares if the low end doesn't have all the options as long as the high end buys do since they're buying on launch day while the bargain gamer is waiting for the price drop.
Also, it's better to build it efficiently from the start that to try and fix it at the end with optimizations. The biggest problem for that with cutting edge games and hardware is that the platforms/hardware your building you game to play on don't exist when you're in early-mid development.
Exactly what I said earlier. It takes knowledge, time and money to optimize a game/software.