some questions about my pc, Bottlenecks, GPU, CPU, Upgrade Set, Heat Sink, Overclocking, Underclocking

[Dani Geus]

hey Guys! 😀

i have some kind of a problem..
i'm only 16 Y/o so uhh don't expect any good english from me 😀

i recently upgraded from an HD 6770 1GB to my new HD 7870 DCII 2GB GDDR5 V2

and experiencing some huge lag spikes with every game i start playing like:

- Battlefield 3 & 4

- GTA

- Crysis

- Fifa

- Benchmarks

- and even minecraft LOL

- And many many more games..

but the problem here is that my CPU bottlenecks my GPU.. i think..


The framerate drops randomly from 100Fps to around 21 fps or 7 fps

and i wonder what could help me out for now..


And can i Underclock my GPU so my CPU can handle it for now?


and another little thing..

i wonder if this could damage my computer components?

and i'm planning to buy a upgrade set.. it's this one:

http://www.alternate.nl/ALTERNATE/Upgrade-Kit-MSI-Z87-G45-Gaming-i7-4770K-8GB/html/product/1095119?

is it worth buying? and could that be the fix for my issues?


oh i almost forgot to list my pc specs.. 😛

CPU - AMD FX4100 @3.6Ghz (stock heat sink) but i have another Zalman heat sink

GPU - HD 7870 DCII 2GB GDDR5 V2

PSU - 550 Watt, HKC

RAM - 8 GB @ 1333Mhz

HDD's - 2x 1000Gb @ 72000RPM and 1x 500Gb @ 72000RPM

SSD - None

Motherboard - MSI 760GM P23 FX

Case:

MS-Tech CA-0300

Picture with airflow:

http://nl.tinypic.com/view.php?pic=s33j42&s=7#.U-0JS_l_uBp


Thanks for reading my questions 😀 and have a nice day!

 

[clutchc]

I don't think your FX-4100 is bottlenecking the gfx card. It shouldn't anyway. The CPU and GPU should be pretty well matched for each other. That's not the same as saying that a CPU with greater IPC wouldn't squeeze out a few more FPS, tho. But your issue must be something else. Do you have other stuff running in the tray when you game? Try to keep the background apps to a minimum while gaming.

Try uninstalling the gfx driver, run Driver Sweeper from safe mode, and have it remove any AMD and Nvidia gfx driver remnants it can find. Reboot and install the latest driver for your card and OS. http://www.techspot.com/downloads/4266-driver-sweeper.html

Also give CCleaner a run to remove resource wasting junk files, software conflicts, and registry errors. https://www.piriform.com/CCLEANER

What is the PSU's +12V rating on the nameplate? If it is this one, it is too small for that card.
http://nl.hardware.info/productinfo/63223/hkc-usp-5550-550w#tab:specificaties

Do the same games have that issue in single player mode too? Or just when playing online?

 

[Dani Geus]

I don't think your FX-4100 is bottlenecking the gfx card. It shouldn't anyway. The CPU and GPU should be pretty well matched for each other. That's not the same as saying that a CPU with greater IPC wouldn't squeeze out a few more FPS, tho. But your issue must be something else. Do you have other stuff running in the tray when you game? Try to keep the background apps to a minimum while gaming.

Try uninstalling the gfx driver, run Driver Sweeper from safe mode, and have it remove any AMD and Nvidia gfx driver remnants it can find. Reboot and install the latest driver for your card and OS. http://www.techspot.com/downloads/4266-driver-sweeper.html

Also give CCleaner a run to remove resource wasting junk files, software conflicts, and registry errors. https://www.piriform.com/CCLEANER

What is the PSU's +12V rating on the nameplate? If it is this one, it is too small for that card.
http://nl.hardware.info/productinfo/63223/hkc-usp-5550-550w#tab:specificaties

Do the same games have that issue in single player mode too? Or just when playing online?

Hey Clutchc 😀

First of all thanks for your reply

- the only programs running in the background are:

- Origin
- Steam
- Skype

And

- I reinstalled windows thousands of times, drivers too

- i'm running Win 7 Home Premium X64, tried: 7 Ultimate X64 and 7 Pro X64, windows 8 X64 and 8.1 X64 but non of those helped me out

- I play single and multiplayer and it's happening in both sessions

- I did ran ccleaner several times but it didn't help ( good program btw 😀 )

- the +12V thing is:

+12V
24A
Yellow
288W

and it's the PSU from the link you gave me.. could that be the problem?

 

[clutchc]

- the +12V thing is:

+12V
24A
Yellow
288W

and it's the PSU from the link you gave me.. could that be the problem?

That would be my first assumption, yes. In fact, even if it turns out not to be the problem, change it to a better one. Or don't use the card for gaming until you do. That HD 7870 is a 170W card when it maxes out. That's over 14A alone. Add another 8A for the 95W CPU. I am amazed that the 24A (+12V) rail didn't cause a re-boot or shutdown.

It probably couldn't max out however because the PSU couldn't maintain the voltage. Look into a good quality 600W or better PSU. Here is a tiered list of some of them: https://community.newegg.com/eggxpert/computer_hardware/f/135081/t/45344.aspx?Redirected=true

I can't believe that PSU had 2 x 6 pin PCIe connectors. You must be running with Molex to PCIe adapters, right?

 

[Dani Geus]

- the +12V thing is:

+12V
24A
Yellow
288W

and it's the PSU from the link you gave me.. could that be the problem?

That would be my first assumption, yes. In fact, even if it turns out not to be the problem, change it to a better one. Or don't use the card for gaming until you do. That HD 7870 is a 170W card when it maxes out. That's over 14A alone. Add another 8A for the 95W CPU. I am amazed that the 24A (+12V) rail didn't cause a re-boot or shutdown.

It probably couldn't max out however because the PSU couldn't maintain the voltage. Look into a good quality 600W or better PSU. Here is a tiered list of some of them: https://community.newegg.com/eggxpert/computer_hardware/f/135081/t/45344.aspx?Redirected=true

I can't believe that PSU had 2 x 6 pin PCIe connectors. You must be running with Molex to PCIe adapters, right?

I searched a bit for a better PSU.. i found this one from coolermaster:

http://www.alternate.nl/Cooler-Master/B700-700-Watt-voeding/html/product/1051654?

also i'm going to take a look at your link with the tiered list, and which PSU do you think is the best for me?

And is there a good 650watts or 700 watts in a price range from 60 to 100 Euro's?

i don't really know much about PSU's

And so far i never had reboot or shutdown issues

i'm not using any adapters two 6 pin connectors came on-board with the PSU

 

[clutchc]

Amazing! Here in the US, I've never seen a PSU that only had a single 24A +12V rail with a 6 pin and 6+2 pin PCIe connectors. Since the PCIe slot alone is good for 75W and the 6 pin adds another 75W and the 8 pin adds another 150W, that would mean the PSU is wired for 300W at +12V for the PCIe slot alone. That's 25A right there. Not counting the CPU, fans, drives, etc. They must not have the same safety regulations in Europe as they do here.

I'm not familiar with that model of CM PSU. It isn't sold here. Some CM PSUs are rated high, some are not. But it appears to have a 55A +12V rail. That should be enough. If you have the budget for a similar sized Corsair, XFX, Antec, Seasonic, FSP, or one in the top 3 tiers of the list I sent, that would be safe for sure.

 

[Dani Geus]

Amazing! Here in the US, I've never seen a PSU that only had a single 24A +12V rail with a 6 pin and 6+2 pin PCIe connectors. Since the PCIe slot alone is good for 75W and the 6 pin adds another 75W and the 8 pin adds another 150W, that would mean the PSU is wired for 300W at +12V for the PCIe slot alone. That's 25A right there. Not counting the CPU, fans, drives, etc. They must not have the same safety regulations in Europe as they do here.

I'm not familiar with that model of CM PSU. It isn't sold here. Some CM PSUs are rated high, some are not. But it appears to have a 55A +12V rail. That should be enough. If you have the budget for a similar sized Corsair, XFX, Antec, Seasonic, FSP, or one in the top 3 tiers of the list I sent, that would be safe for sure.

Hey Clutchc

How can i thank you for helping me out!?
i'm buying a new PSU and we'll see if that fixes my issues! 😀
and i'll let you know bud also i'll mark your answer as my solution
and i hope i can help you out with something in the future 😛

Thanks man!

Greetz From Holland 😀

oh and maybe these specs are more detailed for you 😀

http://tweakers.net/pricewatch/330185/cooler-master-b700/specificaties/

http://afuture.nl/productview.php?productID=720367

and as long i do not game i will not damage something?

- to advoid damage should i stop gaming until i get a new PSU?

- should i get the GPU out? and put it on intergrated GPU?

 

[clutchc]

The card will be fine with your old PSU as long as you don't cause it to run at max load. at idle or 2D desktop work, it won't use much power. Modern games that are graphically demanding will demand a lot of power (watts) from the PSU. i.e. a lot of current (amps) on the +12V rail. No sense taking a chance until you get the new PSU.

You probably should have waited to mark best answer until the problem was solved. ;-)
Thanks for the kind words. Let me know how the new PSU works out.

 

[Dani Geus]

The card will be fine with your old PSU as long as you don't cause it to run at max load. at idle or 2D desktop work, it won't use much power. Modern games that are graphically demanding will demand a lot of power (watts) from the PSU. i.e. a lot of current (amps) on the +12V rail. No sense taking a chance until you get the new PSU.

You probably should have waited to mark best answer until the problem was solved. ;-)
Thanks for the kind words. Let me know how the new PSU works out.

hey Clutchc

haha sorry.. i'll keep that in mind for the next time 😛
i've got the money for the PSU so i'm getting it anytime soon so we'll see 😀

 

[Dani Geus]

The card will be fine with your old PSU as long as you don't cause it to run at max load. at idle or 2D desktop work, it won't use much power. Modern games that are graphically demanding will demand a lot of power (watts) from the PSU. i.e. a lot of current (amps) on the +12V rail. No sense taking a chance until you get the new PSU.

You probably should have waited to mark best answer until the problem was solved. ;-)
Thanks for the kind words. Let me know how the new PSU works out.

hey clutchc

i found a Corsair VS650 what about that one? is that good or one that is similar with The Coolermaster B700 which one should i get? oh and look at this if you want

https://forum-en.msi.com/faq/article/printer/power-requirements-for-graphics-cards

http://www.corsair.com/en-us/vs-seriestm-vs650-650-watt-power-supply

 

[clutchc]

The first link is probably pretty close to what the minimum namplate rating should be for using the HD 7870. That card is 175W TDP. At +12V that will draw 14.6 amps. So a 500W PSU would be about right for the bare minimum. And of course it would have to have 2 x 6+2 pin connectors for the card.

The Corsair VS650 will be a good choice for your situation.

 

[Dani Geus]

hey clutchc..

i build in the Corsair CX750M it seems my temperatures of the GPU are 5 degrees lower than before.. 36 degrees in celcius
now i'm gonna test Battlefield 3 and i hope the magic happens.. wish me luck 😀

 

[clutchc]

Good Luck

But keep in mind, BF4 is one game that keeps popping up here with complaints about lagging and stutter in multiplayer mode. I think the servers being over loaded is a big part of the problem.

 

[Dani Geus]

Good Luck

But keep in mind, BF4 is one game that keeps popping up here with complaints about lagging and stutter in multiplayer mode. I think the servers being over loaded is a big part of the problem.

hey clutchc

it did work for a bit. but i still have these lag spikes. but the new PSU helped alot so thanks for that
the fps does not drop that often anymore but they're still showing up.. sometimes heavy and sometimes light and still with every game i play

i tried

- Battlefield 4 And Battlefield 3
- Grand Theft Auto IV
- FIFA 14

i wonder what's going to happen when i take out 4Gigs of RAM
if these spikes go away. because i bought 1 Extra RAM stick with the Videocard

should i try that?

 

[clutchc]

The MSI 760GM P23 FX MB only has 2 DIMM slots. With both slots populated, you will be in dual channel mode. There is a slight increase in performance when you use dual channel mode, yes. But... and here's the important part... dual channel mode requires that the pair of RAM sticks be a MATCHED set. If the manufacturer, speed, timings, voltage, even date of manufacture does not match, they will be out of sync and cause memory errors. That's why dual channel memory is always sold in MATCHED pairs.

Your results will depend on how well the 2 mis-matched sticks play together.

 

[Dani Geus]

The MSI 760GM P23 FX MB only has 2 DIMM slots. With both slots populated, you will be in dual channel mode. There is a slight increase in performance when you use dual channel mode, yes. But... and here's the important part... dual channel mode requires that the pair of RAM sticks be a MATCHED set. If the manufacturer, speed, timings, voltage, even date of manufacture does not match, they will be out of sync and cause memory errors. That's why dual channel memory is always sold in MATCHED pairs.

Your results will depend on how well the 2 mis-matched sticks play together.

those sticks where not matched that's why it was that laggy i took 1 out and everything works perfectly now.. and now i'm gonna buy a paired set of RAM do you know a good DDR3 1333Mhz pair ?

 

[clutchc]

Oh. I thought you meant you bought a mis-matched stick to use and were going to ADD it. Not take it out. I guess I didn't read close enough. Yeah, probably the new lag you're seeing... or at least making it worse.

 

[Dani Geus]

Oh. I thought you meant you bought a mis-matched stick to use and were going to ADD it. Not take it out. I guess I didn't read close enough. Yeah, probably the new lag you're seeing... or at least making it worse.

no lags nothing.. every game works almost perfectly now

it was a mis matched RAM stick so i took it out

now i'm on 4GB 1333Mhz

 

[clutchc]

We both learned a lesson. I knew you might have memory errors popping up with mis-matched RAM, but I didn't realize it could also cause lag gaming. Good to know.
You really need 8GB min today if you have anything else going on at all while you game. Save up for a matched pair and sell those other ones online somewhere.

 

[Dani Geus]

We both learned a lesson. I knew you might have memory errors popping up with mis-matched RAM, but I didn't realize it could also cause lag gaming. Good to know.
You really need 8GB min today if you have anything else going on at all while you game. Save up for a matched pair and sell those other ones online somewhere.

hey clutchc

i ran into a new problem..

the GPU Usage drops down and now i'm getting lags again.. 🙁
tried different drivers.


Far Cry 3 :

 

[clutchc]

You need to record your CPU usage too when you look for those kind of problems. If those dips coincide with max CPU usage, it would indicate CPU bottleneck. Was this online gaming or single player?

 

[Dani Geus]

You need to record your CPU usage too when you look for those kind of problems. If those dips coincide with max CPU usage, it would indicate CPU bottleneck. Was this online gaming or single player?

hey clutchc i took some pictures from both the usage.

and i was playing in Far Cry 3 in Single player (both times)

the cpu usage sometimes maxes out (near 80% or higher)

and Battlefield 4 (singleplayer) reaches 100% of the CPU alot

and the gpu usage is unstable and drops alot


http://pho.to/6sYMh

 

[clutchc]

It doesn't look like the CPU is bottlenecking the gxf card. The card will max out occasionally at or near 100% while the CPU is well below 100%. That usually means that the CPU is not holding the card back any. But since the card IS peaking often at 100%, I'd consider the possibility that it is the cause of the stutter or lag you feel. Is the 2nd monitor connected to the card too? Try disabling the 2nd monitor in Windows and see if the stutter is still there... or as bad.

If the issue is stutter/lag, it could also be caused be poor frame time. Frame RATES may be high, but an occasional frame may take too long to render. That is what is meant by 'frame time'. It's usually a card issue.

 

[mdocod]

FX-4100 is a huge performance limitation and will cause exactly the sort of bad performance that has been described since post #1 in this thread in compute intensive multiplayer games and/or console ports that have been compiled for broad compatibility instead of performance (typical). Doesn't matter what GPU you pair with the CPU the compute workload for these games is high regardless and the FX-4100 is a very weak CPU for real-time workloads. For gaming in general its worst than a Pentium G3220. (seriously).

In any case, the exact same sort of performance problems happen when running compute intensive multi-player games on weaker Intel celerons/pentiums as well. The FX-4100 simply does not have enough execution resources for these workloads, nor does it have those execution resources arranged in an ideal manner for these workloads. The FX-4100 is typically on par or worse than a Phenom II 955 in terms of gaming performance. I am not surprised at all to hear that the performance is sub-par in games like BF3/4 or console ports like GTA.

The Minecraft lag is a bit surprising, though I don't know the conditions of the lag. Playing on mine-craft servers in multi-player environments has historically had performance "glitchyness" in some circumstances regardless of hardware, so that may not be the fault of any of your hardware.

Attempting to solve a bottleneck for the sake of solving the bottleneck without actually solving the performance problem will not solve any performance related problem. Under-clocking the GPU in order to attempt to change the ratio of the bottleneck will not improve the compute performance of your CPU, thus, will have no positive effect. If the goal is to solve c compute performance problem, you have to adjust the available compute performance (via changing or modifying hardware), not reduce the available render(GPU) performance.

 

[Dani Geus]

FX-4100 is a huge performance limitation and will cause exactly the sort of bad performance that has been described since post #1 in this thread in compute intensive multiplayer games and/or console ports that have been compiled for broad compatibility instead of performance (typical). Doesn't matter what GPU you pair with the CPU the compute workload for these games is high regardless and the FX-4100 is a very weak CPU for real-time workloads. For gaming in general its worst than a Pentium G3220. (seriously).

In any case, the exact same sort of performance problems happen when running compute intensive multi-player games on weaker Intel celerons/pentiums as well. The FX-4100 simply does not have enough execution resources for these workloads, nor does it have those execution resources arranged in an ideal manner for these workloads. The FX-4100 is typically on par or worse than a Phenom II 955 in terms of gaming performance. I am not surprised at all to hear that the performance is sub-par in games like BF3/4 or console ports like GTA.

The Minecraft lag is a bit surprising, though I don't know the conditions of the lag. Playing on mine-craft servers in multi-player environments has historically had performance "glitchyness" in some circumstances regardless of hardware, so that may not be the fault of any of your hardware.

Attempting to solve a bottleneck for the sake of solving the bottleneck without actually solving the performance problem will not solve any performance related problem. Under-clocking the GPU in order to attempt to change the ratio of the bottleneck will not improve the compute performance of your CPU, thus, will have no positive effect. If the goal is to solve c compute performance problem, you have to adjust the available compute performance (via changing or modifying hardware), not reduce the available render(GPU) performance.

hmmm i got shaders on mineraft.. so uuh hahah

but there is something weird about my pc.. LEDs in fans are dieing so i think that's prety weird though (not anymore since my new PSU)

i think you are trying to say that i need to upgrade my rig?

and i want to go over to intel and what that means is that i need to sell my CPU, MOBO, RAM and buy new stuff like this:


RAM:

http://www.dixons.nl/pc/computer-upgrade/werkgeheugen/computer-geheugen/507822/corsair-xms3-1333-8gb-2x4gb

MOBO:

a socket 1150 for around 80 Euro's

with a good CPU for around 200 Euro's

OR

http://afuture.nl/productview.php?productID=360657

OR

i don't know if the socket makes sense LGA1155 or non LGA 1155 and i want the best the most compatible one with 4th gen i7, i5 and 3th gen i5 and i7 for max 80 euro's

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157372


CPU:

https://afuture.nl/productview.php?productID=350339

thanks for helping me with this mdocod 😀