Stealing with legerdemain, timing question

Phil

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Oracle says:
Legerdemain
Exchange control of target artifact or creature and another target
permanent if they share one of those types. (This effect doesn't end
at end of turn.)

I have a creature and my opponent has a big fat creature. Could I
cast legerdemain to swap them, targeting relavent creatures, then
unsummon my creature while legedemain is still on the stack. Thus
ending up with both creatures.

I fully realie that I could allow the legerdemain to resolve and then
unsummon my creature that my opponent now controls. However I'm
confused over the exchange mechanic.

I suppose a better way of asking the same kind of question is my
opponent and I have 2/2 creatures. Opponent casts legerdemain. If I
bolt his creature in response, what hapens when legerdemain tries to
resolve?

hope I've explained this well enough.
Cheers

Phil.
 
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Phil wrote:

> Oracle says:
> Legerdemain
> Exchange control of target artifact or creature and another target
> permanent if they share one of those types. (This effect doesn't end
> at end of turn.)
>
> I have a creature and my opponent has a big fat creature. Could I
> cast legerdemain to swap them, targeting relavent creatures, then
> unsummon my creature while legedemain is still on the stack. Thus
> ending up with both creatures.

No. An exchange cannot be successfully performed unless both
transfers can take place. Since you now cannot give your
creature to your opponent, the exchange cannot take place and
the big fat creature remains his.
>
> I fully realie that I could allow the legerdemain to resolve and then
> unsummon my creature that my opponent now controls. However I'm
> confused over the exchange mechanic.
>
> I suppose a better way of asking the same kind of question is my
> opponent and I have 2/2 creatures. Opponent casts legerdemain. If I
> bolt his creature in response, what hapens when legerdemain tries to
> resolve?

Nothing Observable. The exchange fails because your opponent now
cannot give his creature to you.
>
> hope I've explained this well enough.
> Cheers
>
> Phil.

--
Christopher Mattern

"Which one you figure tracked us?"
"The ugly one, sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"
 
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On 14 Apr 2005 06:24:40 -0700, Phil <phil@ideastakingshape.co.uk> wrote:
>Oracle says:
>Legerdemain
>Exchange control of target artifact or creature and another target
>permanent if they share one of those types. (This effect doesn't end
>at end of turn.)

Right.

>I have a creature and my opponent has a big fat creature. Could I
>cast legerdemain to swap them, targeting relavent creatures, then
>unsummon my creature while legedemain is still on the stack. Thus
>ending up with both creatures.

Nope. ("That trick never works!")

The definition of "exchange" in the Glossary helpfully notes that both
parties to the exchange have to STILL BE THERE when the exchange happens,
or else the exchange does not happen at all. An exchange, in Magic, will
never "happen to only one side".

>I fully realie that I could allow the legerdemain to resolve and then
>unsummon my creature that my opponent now controls. However I'm
>confused over the exchange mechanic.

Exchange won't happen unless it can actually exchange the two specified
things. If it can't, Nothing Happens and the remaining thing (or remaining
legal thing) remains where it was.

>I suppose a better way of asking the same kind of question is my
>opponent and I have 2/2 creatures. Opponent casts legerdemain. If I
>bolt his creature in response, what hapens when legerdemain tries to
>resolve?

Nothing. Well, it does check to see if both targets are still legal, finds
that one still is, and does resolve ... but its effect doesn't do anything.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
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There is a simple answer to your questions ;)

Exchange

A spell or ability may instruct two players to exchange something (for
example, life totals or control of two permanents) as part of its
resolution. When such a spell or ability resolves, if it can't exchange
the chosen things, it has no effect on them.

Example: If a spell attempts to exchange control of two target creatures
but one of those creatures is destroyed before the spell resolves, the
spell does nothing to the other creature. Or if a spell attempts to
exchange control of two target creatures but both of those creatures are
controlled by the same player, the spell does nothing to the two creatures.
 

Tim

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> The definition of "exchange" in the Glossary helpfully notes that both
> parties to the exchange have to STILL BE THERE when the exchange happens,
> or else the exchange does not happen at all. An exchange, in Magic, will
> never "happen to only one side".

What about Juxtapose.

Card Name: Juxtapose
Cost: 3U
Type: Sorcery
Rules Text: You and target player exchange control of the creature
you each control with the highest converted mana cost.
Then exchange control of artifacts the same way. If
two or more permanents a player controls are tied for
highest cost, that player chooses one. (This effect
doesn’t end at end of turn.)

I have a creature and an artifact, my opponent has none. He casts Juxtapose - what
happens? Last time this happened to me I gave him my creature and artifact, and he
won the game in quick fashion thereafter. Was I dudded?

Thanks,

Tim
 
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Tim <XX@nah.com> wrote:

> > The definition of "exchange" in the Glossary helpfully notes that both
> > parties to the exchange have to STILL BE THERE when the exchange happens,
> > or else the exchange does not happen at all. An exchange, in Magic, will
> > never "happen to only one side".
>
> What about Juxtapose.

What about it?

> Card Name: Juxtapose
> Cost: 3U
> Type: Sorcery
> Rules Text: You and target player exchange control of the creature
> you each control with the highest converted mana cost.
> Then exchange control of artifacts the same way. If
> two or more permanents a player controls are tied for
> highest cost, that player chooses one. (This effect
> doesn't end at end of turn.)
>
> I have a creature and an artifact, my opponent has none. He casts
> Juxtapose - what happens?

Exchange
A spell or ability may instruct two players to exchange something (for
example, life totals or control of two permanents) as part of its
resolution. When such a spell or ability resolves, if it can't exchange
the chosen things, it has no effect on them.
Example: If a spell attempts to exchange control of two target creatures
but one of those creatures is destroyed before the spell resolves, the
spell does nothing to the other creature. Or if a spell attempts to
exchange control of two target creatures but both of those creatures are
controlled by the same player, the spell does nothing to the two
creatures.
When control of two permanents is exchanged, each player
simultaneously gains control of the permanent that was controlled by the
other player.
When life totals are exchanged, each player gains or loses the
amount of life necessary to equal the other player's previous life
total. Replacement effects may modify these gains and losses, and
triggered abilities may trigger on them.
Some spells or abilities may instruct a player to exchange cards in
one zone with cards in a different zone (for example, cards removed from
the game and cards in a player's hand). These spells and abilities work
the same as other "exchange" spells and abilities, except they can
exchange the cards only if all the cards are owned by the same player.
If a spell or ability instructs a player to simply exchange two
zones, and one of the zones is empty, the cards in the zones are still
exchanged.

If the controller of Juxtapose doesn't control a creature when the time
comes for the first exchange, there is no exchange of creature control.
Likewise, if the controller of Juxtapose does not control an artifact
when the time comes for the second exchange, that doesn't happen either.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W
 
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On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 16:02:04 +1000, Tim <XX@nah.com> wrote:
>> The definition of "exchange" in the Glossary helpfully notes that both
>> parties to the exchange have to STILL BE THERE when the exchange happens,
>> or else the exchange does not happen at all. An exchange, in Magic, will
>> never "happen to only one side".
>
>What about Juxtapose.

Exact same answer; neither of the exchanges can happen if that exchange "only
has one side". If only one player has any creatures, then the creature exchange
doesn't happen at all; if only one player has any artifacts at the appropriate
time, the artifact exchange doesn't happen at all.

>I have a creature and an artifact, my opponent has none. He casts Juxtapose - what
>happens? Last time this happened to me I gave him my creature and artifact, and he
>won the game in quick fashion thereafter. Was I dudded?

You were dudded. He can't get your creature without a creature of his own;
after dealing with the creature swap, he can't get your artifact without an
artifact of his own. In the situation you describe, the Juxtapose resolves,
finds it CAN'T do either part of its effect, and ends up doing Nothing.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
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On 14 Apr 2005 11:50:03 -0400, dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney)
wrote:

>The definition of "exchange" in the Glossary helpfully notes that both
>parties to the exchange have to STILL BE THERE when the exchange happens,
>or else the exchange does not happen at all. An exchange, in Magic, will
>never "happen to only one side".

So the way to get that effect would need a card that said "give control of
Target1 to the player who controls target2 and control of target2 to the
player who controls target1", rather than 'exchange'?

Jasper
 
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Jasper Janssen <jasper@jjanssen.org> wrote:
>dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote:
>>The definition of "exchange" in the Glossary helpfully notes that both
>>parties to the exchange have to STILL BE THERE when the exchange happens,
>>or else the exchange does not happen at all. An exchange, in Magic, will
>>never "happen to only one side".
>
>So the way to get that effect would need a card that said "give control of
>Target1 to the player who controls target2 and control of target2 to the
>player who controls target1", rather than 'exchange'?

Or some such wording. Note that you run into the problem of simultaneity here,
as if you do those in order "the player who controls target1" changes partway
through...

"Simultaneously, player 2 gains control of target 1 controlled by player 1, and
player 1 gains control of target 2 controlled by player 2" would work, I
believe. Since it has more than one target, a) all targets have to become
illegal in response to counter it on resolution, and b) if it resolves, it
affects all the targets that are still legal as much as it can.

But yes, "exchange" won't do it.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.