SWAT 4 demo

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Andrew

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3dgamers.com have a SP demo of SWAT 4. I just had a quick play with it
and it looks good and plays very well.
--
Andrew, contact via interpleb.blogspot.com
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Andrew wrote:

> 3dgamers.com have a SP demo of SWAT 4. I just had a quick play with it
> and it looks good and plays very well.


Thanks for the heads-up! Something to play tonight!
 
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 09:54:58 +0000, Andrew <spamtrap@localhost.>
wrote:

>3dgamers.com have a SP demo of SWAT 4. I just had a quick play with it
>and it looks good and plays very well.

I have just nearly completed the demo and am impressed by the AI and
the control system, the whole thing is very smooth and delivers what
it sets out to very well.

I have a question for anyone who has completed the demo, after a
spoiler space:













spoiler












spoiler













spoiler













spoiler

How do you finish the demo? The only objective I have left is to
rescue the civilians, and the only one to save is the garage owner who
just cowers, I can't get him to follow me so I can save him. HELP!
--
Andrew, contact via interpleb.blogspot.com
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OnePunchMickey wrote:

> Andrew wrote:
>
>
>>3dgamers.com have a SP demo of SWAT 4. I just had a quick play with it
>>and it looks good and plays very well.
>
>
>
> Thanks for the heads-up! Something to play tonight!


Heck yeah! I've seen some screen shots and it looks very good.
 
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 13:17:06 +0000, Andrew <spamtrap@localhost.>
wrote:

>I have a question for anyone who has completed the demo, after a
>spoiler space:

Scratch that question, I think I found a "feature", it didn't happen
the next time I tried playing it.
--
Andrew, contact via interpleb.blogspot.com
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flightlessvacuum@lycos.com wrote:

> How does it compare to Raven Shield gameplay wise?

It's a lot more like SWAT 3. Not as complicated as RS in my book. On the
strength of the demo it looks like a worthy successor to SWAT 3.
 
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On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 09:54:58 +0000, Andrew <spamtrap@localhost.>
wrote:

>3dgamers.com have a SP demo of SWAT 4. I just had a quick play with it
>and it looks good and plays very well.

Glad you enjoyed it, I hope it's gotten better since release. I
spent a couple of hours playing it back when it first came out. The
entire two hours were a constant banfest, seeing an average of one
person every two minutes having to be kicked off the server for
any/all of the following.
1) Using taser or pepper spray on friendlies.
2) Rampant tking, usually resulting in a free fire zone at the spawn
as someone gets stupid, someone retaliates, someone else decides to
shoot the "tker" and ends up shooting someone who was trying to get
the drop on the real problem. Then when respawn happens 15 seconds
later everyone does it again.
3) Shooting to wound team mates.
4) Shooting the protected VIP on purpose, immediately losing the
scenario for your team.

The whole VIP mission needs work as well, one team is supposed to
"escort" a VIP to the roof where they can escape, winning the
scenario. The opposing team must capture the VIP and hold him for two
minutes, then they can kill the VIP to win. But what often happens is
that the VIP can just ignore the entire escort part of the program and
run right for the roof, using their pistol and two clips of ammo in an
entirely offensive capacity with a very good chance of success. This
works very well since if the enemy team kills the VIP trying to stop
him, they lose and if they run around holding non lethal weapons all
the time they get slaughtered by SWAT.

Part of the problem is the fact that scores are reported at all.
SWAT shouldn't be about how many bad guys you personally killed, it's
about getting the job done with a minimum of casualties (innocent,
SWAT and bad guy; in that order of course).

If a game really wants to encourage teamwork, they need to get rid
of personal kills and only show total team score; the only solo stats
that should be shown are mistakes (shots and kills on your team or
hostages). Anyone who wants to be Rambo and rack up a high kill score
at the expense of the mission should go play Unreal Tournament. But
they will never do this because the 14 year old twitch gamer is their
target audience.

--
"The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability
of the human mind to correlate all its contents." - H.P. Lovecraft
 
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On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 08:46:43 +0000, OnePunchMickey
<fantantiddlyspan@hotmail.com> wrote:

>flightlessvacuum@lycos.com wrote:
>
>> How does it compare to Raven Shield gameplay wise?
>
>It's a lot more like SWAT 3. Not as complicated as RS in my book. On the
>strength of the demo it looks like a worthy successor to SWAT 3.

Glad to hear it, will give it a try. It's a shame they catered to
the twitch crowd for MP though. Oh well, whatever they need to do to
keep sales up enough to make SWAT 5. :)

--
"The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability
of the human mind to correlate all its contents." - H.P. Lovecraft
 
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On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 12:54:05 GMT, Johnny Bravo
<baawa_knight@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Glad you enjoyed it, I hope it's gotten better since release. I
>spent a couple of hours playing it back when it first came out. The
>entire two hours were a constant banfest, seeing an average of one
>person every two minutes having to be kicked off the server for
>any/all of the following.

<Multi player related post snipped>

The demo is the single player part of the game as I indicated
originally.
--
Andrew, contact via interpleb.blogspot.com
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On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 13:17:06 +0000, Andrew <spamtrap@localhost.>
wrote:

>On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 09:54:58 +0000, Andrew <spamtrap@localhost.>
>wrote:
>
>>3dgamers.com have a SP demo of SWAT 4. I just had a quick play with it
>>and it looks good and plays very well.
>
>I have just nearly completed the demo and am impressed by the AI and
>the control system, the whole thing is very smooth and delivers what
>it sets out to very well.
>
>I have a question for anyone who has completed the demo, after a
>spoiler space:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>spoiler
>
>
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>
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>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>spoiler
>
>
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>
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>
>
>spoiler
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
>spoiler
>
>How do you finish the demo? The only objective I have left is to
>rescue the civilians, and the only one to save is the garage owner who
>just cowers, I can't get him to follow me so I can save him. HELP!

What's with the civilians in this game, none of them would comply
with commands to get down. I ended up having to taser every single
one of them so I could put zipcuffs on.

As for rescuing the civilians, I've yet to see just one, there are
usually a bunch of mechanics mixed in with the suspects.

Damn my guys are a trigger happy lot, I send them in to clear and
room and they nearly always end up killing someone. I'm tempted to
give them the shotguns with less than lethal rounds and just let them
go to town on everyone they see. :)

--
"The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability
of the human mind to correlate all its contents." - H.P. Lovecraft
 
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On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 15:19:00 GMT, Johnny Bravo
<baawa_knight@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 13:17:06 +0000, Andrew <spamtrap@localhost.>
>wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 09:54:58 +0000, Andrew <spamtrap@localhost.>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>3dgamers.com have a SP demo of SWAT 4. I just had a quick play with it
>>>and it looks good and plays very well.
>>
>>I have just nearly completed the demo and am impressed by the AI and
>>the control system, the whole thing is very smooth and delivers what
>>it sets out to very well.
>>
>>I have a question for anyone who has completed the demo, after a
>>spoiler space:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>spoiler
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>spoiler
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>spoiler
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>spoiler
>>
>>How do you finish the demo? The only objective I have left is to
>>rescue the civilians, and the only one to save is the garage owner who
>>just cowers, I can't get him to follow me so I can save him. HELP!
>
> What's with the civilians in this game, none of them would comply
>with commands to get down. I ended up having to taser every single
>one of them so I could put zipcuffs on.
>
> As for rescuing the civilians, I've yet to see just one, there are
>usually a bunch of mechanics mixed in with the suspects.
>
> Damn my guys are a trigger happy lot, I send them in to clear and
>room and they nearly always end up killing someone. I'm tempted to
>give them the shotguns with less than lethal rounds and just let them
>go to town on everyone they see. :)

I just tried that strategy and finished the round with my highest
score of 81%! 🙂
--
Andrew, contact via interpleb.blogspot.com
Help make Usenet a better place: English is read downwards,
please don't top post. Trim replies to quote only relevant text.
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On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 17:16:38 +0000, Andrew <spamtrap@localhost.>
wrote:

>On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 15:19:00 GMT, Johnny Bravo
><baawa_knight@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 13:17:06 +0000, Andrew <spamtrap@localhost.>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 09:54:58 +0000, Andrew <spamtrap@localhost.>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>3dgamers.com have a SP demo of SWAT 4. I just had a quick play with it
>>>>and it looks good and plays very well.
>>>
>>>I have just nearly completed the demo and am impressed by the AI and
>>>the control system, the whole thing is very smooth and delivers what
>>>it sets out to very well.
>>>
>>>I have a question for anyone who has completed the demo, after a
>>>spoiler space:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>spoiler
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>spoiler
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>spoiler
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>spoiler
>>>
>>>How do you finish the demo? The only objective I have left is to
>>>rescue the civilians, and the only one to save is the garage owner who
>>>just cowers, I can't get him to follow me so I can save him. HELP!
>>
>> What's with the civilians in this game, none of them would comply
>>with commands to get down. I ended up having to taser every single
>>one of them so I could put zipcuffs on.
>>
>> As for rescuing the civilians, I've yet to see just one, there are
>>usually a bunch of mechanics mixed in with the suspects.
>>
>> Damn my guys are a trigger happy lot, I send them in to clear and
>>room and they nearly always end up killing someone. I'm tempted to
>>give them the shotguns with less than lethal rounds and just let them
>>go to town on everyone they see. :)
>
>I just tried that strategy and finished the round with my highest
>score of 81%! 🙂

Heh.

--
"The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability
of the human mind to correlate all its contents." - H.P. Lovecraft
 
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On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 09:54:58 +0000, Andrew <spamtrap@localhost.>
wrote:

>3dgamers.com have a SP demo of SWAT 4. I just had a quick play with it
>and it looks good and plays very well.

Wwatch out though, apparently some of the suspects are ninja.

Playing on hard, came in through the roof, got to the first stairs
down and left an element to make sure no one came up that way while
the other element and I cleared the rest of the floor. Got behind the
counter and spotted a couple of armed suspects in the room beyond so I
dropped a stingball on them. One surrendered and the second ran off.

Went and cuffed the one suspect and followed the other, about 10
feet from where he got stingballed I found his gun lying on the floor
in the hallway. He ran down the hall towards the room next to the
stairs so I figured that either we'd find him in the next room or the
element I left covering the stairs would stop him, so we ran on down
there to take a look.

Got to the stairs to find the unarmed suspect lying dead at the top
of the stairs, along with the bodies of my other element.

Yep, a single unarmed man who had been stingballed about a minute
before managed to incapacitate two alert SWAT officers armed with
fully automatic weapons in only a few seconds.

Either that or one or more suspects used pistols to engage in a
firefight with two armored SWAT officers armed with M4 carbines up a
stairwell they were covering, incapacitating both officers before
either officer could manage to disable one of the attackers. Then
they shot the fleeing suspect at the top of the stairs and then spread
back out to their hiding spots around the bottom level where I found
them later.

Either way man, only ninja could have done it.

--
"The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability
of the human mind to correlate all its contents." - H.P. Lovecraft
 
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

I liked the demo a lot. Polished, fun and great GUI. Only problem I see
I may have with the game is no mid-level saves. 🙁

Andrew wrote:
> 3dgamers.com have a SP demo of SWAT 4. I just had a quick play with it
> and it looks good and plays very well.
 
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

Andrew wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 13:17:06 +0000, Andrew <spamtrap@localhost.>
> wrote:
>
>
>>I have a question for anyone who has completed the demo, after a
>>spoiler space:
>
>
> Scratch that question, I think I found a "feature", it didn't happen
> the next time I tried playing it.

Tried it tonight - found the same 'feature'. Next time through it
worked OK. Fairly impressed with the demo otherwise.


--
"NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our weapon is
surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are
fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Our three weapons are
fear, and surprise, and the ruthless efficiency...and an almost
fanatical devotion to the Pope.... Amongst our weapons...are fear,
surprise, ruth... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as fear...
I'll come in again"
 
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On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 19:43:25 -0600, Destroy <ask@meplease.com> wrote:

>I liked the demo a lot. Polished, fun and great GUI. Only problem I see
>I may have with the game is no mid-level saves. 🙁

Personally I am someone who normally expects and tends to over use
mid-level saves, but to be honest I have played the demo about 6 times
and I never once found myself wanting to save, in contrast to the new
Splinter Cell demo. In this kind of game with small levels it doesn't
seem necessary to me, it would break the tension it build up.
--
Andrew, contact via interpleb.blogspot.com
Help make Usenet a better place: English is read downwards,
please don't top post. Trim replies to quote only relevant text.
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On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 07:28:51 +0000, Andrew <spamtrap@localhost.>
wrote:

>On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 19:43:25 -0600, Destroy <ask@meplease.com> wrote:
>
>>I liked the demo a lot. Polished, fun and great GUI. Only problem I see
>>I may have with the game is no mid-level saves. 🙁
>
>Personally I am someone who normally expects and tends to over use
>mid-level saves, but to be honest I have played the demo about 6 times
>and I never once found myself wanting to save, in contrast to the new
>Splinter Cell demo. In this kind of game with small levels it doesn't
>seem necessary to me, it would break the tension it build up.

It also seems to go with Sierra's concept that this is as real a
simulation as they could make and in a real situation you do only have
one chance to get it right. And unlike many other first person
shooters, it isn't so hard that you actually need saves to get through
or find out the tricks you need to win the level.

--
"The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability
of the human mind to correlate all its contents." - H.P. Lovecraft
 
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On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 07:28:51 +0000, Andrew <spamtrap@localhost.>
wrote:

>On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 19:43:25 -0600, Destroy <ask@meplease.com> wrote:
>
>>I liked the demo a lot. Polished, fun and great GUI. Only problem I see
>>I may have with the game is no mid-level saves. 🙁
>
>Personally I am someone who normally expects and tends to over use
>mid-level saves, but to be honest I have played the demo about 6 times
>and I never once found myself wanting to save, in contrast to the new
>Splinter Cell demo. In this kind of game with small levels it doesn't
>seem necessary to me, it would break the tension it build up.


It's funny you should compare those 2 games. I think the reason I'm
not bothered by not being able to save in a mission in Swat4 is that
you don't lose the mission for one tiny mistake. Even if one of your
team gets injured you can still complete the level.

In Splinter Cell, (at least in Pandora Tomorrow) if you make one
little error the mission is over. That gets old real fast so you use
the quicksave a lot to keep from having to replay the SAME section
over and over till you get it perfect.

Even FarCry with it's checkpoints isn't that bad since if you need to
replay a section you can usually try different tactics or take another
route.


Remove nospam_ to reply by email

Jeff H........
 
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Johnny Bravo wrote:
>
> What's with the civilians in this game, none of them would comply
> with commands to get down. I ended up having to taser every single
> one of them so I could put zipcuffs on.

The first time through the demo I was deployed with a Colt firearm as my
secondary and when Altman wouldn't comply I had to shoot him in the leg
in order to convince him to let us put on restraints. Haha..


> Damn my guys are a trigger happy lot, I send them in to clear and
> room and they nearly always end up killing someone. I'm tempted to
> give them the shotguns with less than lethal rounds and just let them
> go to town on everyone they see. :)

I know! I tried out your strategy and it works great! It's impossible
in SWAT 4 to even injure someone with less-than-lethal rounds so
shooting a suspect five times until they drop a weapon is fine -within
this game system at least. I ended up with a score of 98/100 after
clearing out the level with a squad equipped this way. A couple of the
suspects ran into the bathroom downstairs and the squad couldn't get the
door open. An Open, Bang, & Clear issue was ordered but they sat there
for a minute continuously trying the door to no avail. I ended up
calling them away from there and placing a charge on the door. We blew
the thing open, and apparently one of the suspects flew across the room
and smacked his head against the toilet thus knocking himself out.
Points were lost for the suspect being incapacitated instead of
restrained. Whoops!

--
best regards, mat
np:

www.pdxshows.net
 
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On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 04:09:22 -0800, Vader des Vaderlands
<vader@vaderlands.nl> wrote:

>Johnny Bravo wrote:
>>
>> What's with the civilians in this game, none of them would comply
>> with commands to get down. I ended up having to taser every single
>> one of them so I could put zipcuffs on.
>
>The first time through the demo I was deployed with a Colt firearm as my
>secondary and when Altman wouldn't comply I had to shoot him in the leg
>in order to convince him to let us put on restraints. Haha..

Even then you could have used the menu option "Deploy Taser" with
the default equipment (assuming your taser carrier(s) weren't down).
I was doing that for a while, then realized that I'll never use my
pistol so I started carrying the taser myself.

>> Damn my guys are a trigger happy lot, I send them in to clear and
>> room and they nearly always end up killing someone. I'm tempted to
>> give them the shotguns with less than lethal rounds and just let them
>> go to town on everyone they see. :)
>
>I know! I tried out your strategy and it works great! It's impossible
>in SWAT 4 to even injure someone with less-than-lethal rounds so
>shooting a suspect five times until they drop a weapon is fine -within
>this game system at least.

And you're free to just shoot everything in sight without
consequences. Just watch out doing that on hard though, given the
amount of time between shots you really don't want to miss at close
range against a guy witn an Uzi.

>I ended up with a score of 98/100 after
>clearing out the level with a squad equipped this way. A couple of the
>suspects ran into the bathroom downstairs and the squad couldn't get the
>door open. An Open, Bang, & Clear issue was ordered but they sat there
>for a minute continuously trying the door to no avail. I ended up
>calling them away from there and placing a charge on the door. We blew
>the thing open, and apparently one of the suspects flew across the room
>and smacked his head against the toilet thus knocking himself out.
>Points were lost for the suspect being incapacitated instead of
>restrained. Whoops!

Yeah, the description for the breaching charge does mention that
someone on the other side of the door is hosed when it goes off. :)

--
"The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability
of the human mind to correlate all its contents." - H.P. Lovecraft
 
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

Nada wrote:

> OnePunchMickey wrote:
>
>> Andrew wrote:
>>
>>
>>>3dgamers.com have a SP demo of SWAT 4. I just had a quick play with it
>>>and it looks good and plays very well.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for the heads-up! Something to play tonight!
>
>
> Heck yeah! I've seen some screen shots and it looks very good.

A nice touch is the ability to use either the high-falutin' new graphical
command interface, or the SWAT 3 style keypress interface. Have to say I
prefer the old one, it seems easier.
 
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

OnePunchMickey wrote:

> Nada wrote:
>
>
>>OnePunchMickey wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Andrew wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>3dgamers.com have a SP demo of SWAT 4. I just had a quick play with it
>>>>and it looks good and plays very well.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Thanks for the heads-up! Something to play tonight!
>>
>>
>>Heck yeah! I've seen some screen shots and it looks very good.
>
>
> A nice touch is the ability to use either the high-falutin' new graphical
> command interface, or the SWAT 3 style keypress interface. Have to say I
> prefer the old one, it seems easier.

Yeah, it took me a while to realize the game had some new on it. And I
kept stomping the old keys from memory. I was swept by the aureal
luxuries by the demo. I actually hung out at the roof for five minutes
before going after the bad guys inside. I was looking at the sky and
while it looked like a cut and paste job up there, it was something
about that atmosphere that just totally nailed me into the world of game
tourism. "Halo" did the same thing once.
 
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"Johnny Bravo" <baawa_knight@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:9hto11h5qq4v6mnkstfduc8jlvkrkbkk6h@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 09:54:58 +0000, Andrew <spamtrap@localhost.>
> wrote:
>
> >3dgamers.com have a SP demo of SWAT 4. I just had a quick play with it
> >and it looks good and plays very well.
>
> Glad you enjoyed it, I hope it's gotten better since release. I
> spent a couple of hours playing it back when it first came out. The
> entire two hours were a constant banfest, seeing an average of one
> person every two minutes having to be kicked off the server for
> any/all of the following.
> 1) Using taser or pepper spray on friendlies.
> 2) Rampant tking, usually resulting in a free fire zone at the spawn
> as someone gets stupid, someone retaliates, someone else decides to
> shoot the "tker" and ends up shooting someone who was trying to get
> the drop on the real problem. Then when respawn happens 15 seconds
> later everyone does it again.
> 3) Shooting to wound team mates.
> 4) Shooting the protected VIP on purpose, immediately losing the
> scenario for your team.
>
> The whole VIP mission needs work as well, one team is supposed to
> "escort" a VIP to the roof where they can escape, winning the
> scenario. The opposing team must capture the VIP and hold him for two
> minutes, then they can kill the VIP to win. But what often happens is
> that the VIP can just ignore the entire escort part of the program and
> run right for the roof, using their pistol and two clips of ammo in an
> entirely offensive capacity with a very good chance of success. This
> works very well since if the enemy team kills the VIP trying to stop
> him, they lose and if they run around holding non lethal weapons all
> the time they get slaughtered by SWAT.
>
> Part of the problem is the fact that scores are reported at all.
> SWAT shouldn't be about how many bad guys you personally killed, it's
> about getting the job done with a minimum of casualties (innocent,
> SWAT and bad guy; in that order of course).
>
> If a game really wants to encourage teamwork, they need to get rid
> of personal kills and only show total team score; the only solo stats
> that should be shown are mistakes (shots and kills on your team or
> hostages). Anyone who wants to be Rambo and rack up a high kill score
> at the expense of the mission should go play Unreal Tournament. But
> they will never do this because the 14 year old twitch gamer is their
> target audience.
>

Maybe online FPS games need to do the following:

1. If a player TK, cause him to die and put him/her in limbo for a 2 mins.
If the player TK the 2nd time, put in limbo for 4mins. Keep doubling the
time. And maybe after so many TK in a given amount of time, punt him.

2. If a player harms another team mate, cause that player to loss 2x that
amount of damage done. Also, cause his weapon to not fire for 10 secs.

3. If a player continues to do 1 and 2 above, slow their movement and fire
rate down. After a few mins with no TK or harm caused, start to restore
their movement and fire rate.
 
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

Wonder what ever happened to mirror damage? Too unlrealistic I
guess.

Yeah, I like the revenge menus, Slap, Slay, Forgive, stuff like that.
On-purpose TKers don't stay along for long with a system like that.
And they can't spawn-camp their own team. Of course all that needs to
be backed up with a time-limited BAN (not just a kick) after a certain
number of TKs. I say time-limited because occasionally a bad nade will
take out 4 or 5 team members at once. Not that I'd know...
 
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