Swiftech Apogee XL2 vs EK Supremacy EVO vs Heatkiller IV Pro (copper)

[Toxikaraidur]

I don't particularly care to get a 140-300 watt processor so I know it won't truly make a huge difference, but what is the difference between the big three on these guys?
(The 140W is Intel x99 base wattage and 300 can be their extreme side when super-overclocked. like 4.5ghz or so.)

Going with an overkill cooling setup for maximum headroom and thermal performance. I feel like building it myself and wanted to know which of these is the best. I will be going with a Ryzen cpu, so knowing which one has an am4 mounting bracket would be nice too.

 

[n0ns3ns3]

availability of the mounting bracket can be easily checked on product page.
they all perform about the same within couple degree.
Supremacy EVO has those "inserts" and "jet plates" for different CPUs. though I don't thing they already made one for Ryzen specifically.
If I were to buy a CPU block today, I'd pick one of those:
https://shop.aquacomputer.de/index.php?cPath=7_11_12_3350
specifically this one: https://shop.aquacomputer.de/product_info.php?products_id=3647
this page lacks the picture, but it looks like this except mounting:
https://shop.aquacomputer.de/product_info.php?products_id=3534

those are among the best performers, sick looking piece of engineering. the "VARIO" has adjustable geometry for you to match the CPU die layout to achieve max possible performance. Aquacomputer is probably the highest end liquid cooling parts manufacturer out there.

 

[Toxikaraidur]

availability of the mounting bracket can be easily checked on product page.
they all perform about the same within couple degree.
Supremacy EVO has those "inserts" and "jet plates" for different CPUs. though I don't thing they already made one for Ryzen specifically.
If I were to buy a CPU block today, I'd pick one of those:
https://shop.aquacomputer.de/index.php?cPath=7_11_12_3350
specifically this one: https://shop.aquacomputer.de/product_info.php?products_id=3647
this page lacks the picture, but it looks like this except mounting:
https://shop.aquacomputer.de/product_info.php?products_id=3534

those are among the best performers, sick looking piece of engineering. the "VARIO" has adjustable geometry for you to match the CPU die layout to achieve max possible performance. Aquacomputer is probably the highest end liquid cooling parts manufacturer out there.

Huh. I'd never even heard of Aquacomputers before now... Surely I musn't be that idiotic to have missed this if they're that good?
Oh well, hidden gems lie where they may until the miner comes by and goes 'ooh shiny!'.

Jokes and analogies aside I'll do some research as I'm a careful, curious fellow. I thank you very much for your assistance, advice, and those very welcome links.

 

[n0ns3ns3]

Have you ever heard of Pagani cars ?
on a serious note, those are premium products which tend to cost more than usual. take their GPU blocks, they are the only one on the market with glass and not acrylic face plates. same goes for their glass tube reservoirs. Their aquaero line for monitoring and controlling pumps, fans, thermal and flow sensors and lighting is kinda unique of it's kind.
I'd also recommend to check out the pump mounts reservoirs, reservoir mounts from Singularity Computers - there is no other pump top on the market that is as flexible as those. not to mention very nice look. I love the frosted ones.
Alphacool and HWLabs are the best radiators.
Bitspower is one of the best fittings makers.
Mansoon have very cool staff like the their hardline fittings that make it impossible to pop out.
There is much wider world of watercooling goodies than those you mentioned

 

[Toxikaraidur]

Have you ever heard of Pagani cars ?
on a serious note, those are premium products which tend to cost more than usual. take their GPU blocks, they are the only one on the market with glass and not acrylic face plates. same goes for their glass tube reservoirs. Their aquaero line for monitoring and controlling pumps, fans, thermal and flow sensors and lighting is kinda unique of it's kind.
I'd also recommend to check out the pump mounts reservoirs, reservoir mounts from Singularity Computers - there is no other pump top on the market that is as flexible as those. not to mention very nice look. I love the frosted ones.
Alphacool and HWLabs are the best radiators.
Bitspower is one of the best fittings makers.
Mansoon have very cool staff like the their hardline fittings that make it impossible to pop out.
There is much wider world of watercooling goodies than those you mentioned

Yes I have driven quite a few in Gran Turismo 3 by ASpec.

I have looked into ordering parts from Singularity computers before. I have a list set up with the best parts. However the 'best' parts are nil without a pump and waterblock to match.
Thank you for your time.

I'm going with an alphacool pure copper UT45 Quad140mm radiator and will be using Noctua NFA-14 IndustrialIPPC67 2000rpm PWM fans in push/pull with a custom fan curve. I will be using Tygon tubing as well. My father used to work with their industrial tubing for special operated cranes and hydraulic systems and said they were beast. that being said i'm going with non-rigid tubing. But i will take a look at Bitspower and Monsoon's fittings

 

[Toxikaraidur]

Have you ever heard of Pagani cars ?
on a serious note, those are premium products which tend to cost more than usual. take their GPU blocks, they are the only one on the market with glass and not acrylic face plates. same goes for their glass tube reservoirs. Their aquaero line for monitoring and controlling pumps, fans, thermal and flow sensors and lighting is kinda unique of it's kind.
I'd also recommend to check out the pump mounts reservoirs, reservoir mounts from Singularity Computers - there is no other pump top on the market that is as flexible as those. not to mention very nice look. I love the frosted ones.
Alphacool and HWLabs are the best radiators.
Bitspower is one of the best fittings makers.
Mansoon have very cool staff like the their hardline fittings that make it impossible to pop out.
There is much wider world of watercooling goodies than those you mentioned

I don't suppose they have a cuplex kryos NEXT VARIO with VISION AM4 copper/copper version instead of mixed metals? I'm trying to go for as few mixed-metals in this loop as possible. Copper and brass only if at all possible.
I don't see such a thing on their site at least with the VARIO attribute on there. I found a cuplex kryos NEXT VISION AM4 copper/copper but it didn't have the VARIO.

What is the effect of the VARIO anyway? Minimal? Helpful? massive?

 

[n0ns3ns3]

the Vario thing helps to focus/distribute the flow on different CPU dies to better cool the hotspots. I don't think there is more than 1-2C difference with VARIO, just lower temp variation between different cores.
you can go with any of their blocks as all the metals in their list are "compatible". as long as you don't use things like aluminum, the galvanic corrosion is not an issue.
BTW, did you check the XFlow rads ? they are much more convenient for filling, draining and cleaner tubes route.

 

[Toxikaraidur]

the Vario thing helps to focus/distribute the flow on different CPU dies to better cool the hotspots. I don't think there is more than 1-2C difference with VARIO, just lower temp variation between different cores.
you can go with any of their blocks as all the metals in their list are "compatible". as long as you don't use things like aluminum, the galvanic corrosion is not an issue.
BTW, did you check the XFlow rads ? they are much more convenient for filling, draining and cleaner tubes route.

I looked into them a while back and decided they weren't worth my time. Anyone going for a quad-radiator in push/pull cares more about temps and will use a stronger pump and ensure their coolant won't clog rather than going with a bandaid-solution.

I'll go with the fixed version since it has the vision and copper/copper attributes which cut down on both general and galvanic corrosion. Now all I have to worry about are brass fittings which are copper+zinc. Thank you for your time.

 

[n0ns3ns3]

fittings from all major brands are brass - just pick what you like
enjoy your build.

 

[Toxikaraidur]

fittings from all major brands are brass - just pick what you like
enjoy your build.

Monsoon Lightport Rotary and Compression fittings. Now I just need to find the best pump xD

 

[n0ns3ns3]

D5 is D5. All of them are made by one company. the difference is in PWM controller and some additional features like aquabus connector on aquacomputer.

 

[Toxikaraidur]

D5 is D5. All of them are made by one company. the difference is in PWM controller and some additional features like aquabus connector on aquacomputer.

Noise levels
head pressure
potential flow rates
cost
size
versatility in positioning

The first three can't all be so similar as to be indistinguishable?

 

[n0ns3ns3]

there are two good pumps out there:
1. D5 - higher flow rate, lower noise. all of them are the same on the same speed.
2. DDC - higher head pressure and more compact. don't really like them due to higher noise and the requirement of cooling the motor with heatsink.
the variations between the pumps are really not important.
so once you pick the D5 or DDC, it comes to the tops that are actually define mounting and connectors. I like theSingularity Computers one due to the great flexibility. there are plenty of mounting and connecting options as well as this unique ability to connect the res directly and with tube extension

 

[Toxikaraidur]

there are two good pumps out there:
1. D5 - higher flow rate, lower noise. all of them are the same on the same speed.
2. DDC - higher head pressure and more compact. don't really like them due to higher noise and the requirement of cooling the motor with heatsink.
the variations between the pumps are really not important.
so once you pick the D5 or DDC, it comes to the tops that are actually define mounting and connectors. I like theSingularity Computers one due to the great flexibility. there are plenty of mounting and connecting options as well as this unique ability to connect the res directly and with tube extension

I definitely want to go with D5 over DDC due to the better noise and flow. I'm using multiple loops in my system because why not, so I can run them virtually silent. It's just the setup, maintenence, and power for each loop I'll have to worry about rather than the logistics of a very complex loop.

 

[n0ns3ns3]

i'm not sure what is your exact setup, but pumps are not making much noise even on max RPM if mounted correctly.
a single D5 can easily handle 2-4 blocks (CPU/GPU/RAM/VRM) and a couple of rads.
the actual audible noise comes from fans. so the best way to bring it to minimum is actually to have as much rad surface as possible.
then you just play with temperature - get your max overclocks and then just lower the fan's speed to the level were temps are still fine, but at lower RPM.
For example in my loop 480 rad surface is keeping the system running Heaven + Prime95 at 77C and 50C for CPU and GPU at 33C room temperature while fans are at 1400RPM. At winter, with ambient at 20C, the fans are not crossing 1100RPM. Right now (27C), the gaming load is about 1100RPM.
you are going to use larger rads and fans and probably your room temperature is lower. So you are probably can settle for under 1000RPM.
As a side note, noctua's industrialPPC PWM fans have some clicking noise from the PWM. If you are after absolute silence, DC version would be better option.

 

[Toxikaraidur]

i'm not sure what is your exact setup, but pumps are not making much noise even on max RPM if mounted correctly.
a single D5 can easily handle 2-4 blocks (CPU/GPU/RAM/VRM) and a couple of rads.
the actual audible noise comes from fans. so the best way to bring it to minimum is actually to have as much rad surface as possible.
then you just play with temperature - get your max overclocks and then just lower the fan's speed to the level were temps are still fine, but at lower RPM.
For example in my loop 480 rad surface is keeping the system running Heaven + Prime95 at 77C and 50C for CPU and GPU at 33C room temperature while fans are at 1400RPM. At winter, with ambient at 20C, the fans are not crossing 1100RPM. Right now (27C), the gaming load is about 1100RPM.
you are going to use larger rads and fans and probably your room temperature is lower. So you are probably can settle for under 1000RPM.
As a side note, noctua's industrialPPC PWM fans have some clicking noise from the PWM. If you are after absolute silence, DC version would be better option.

I've been in some extremely loud workshops and been around high-airflow fans bigger than myself. I may be a pc-quiet nut but I've learnt not to let noises bother me too much. The silence quest if just a nicety for myself and a blessing for others since I share my living space. I'll be using a quad 140mm in push or pull for my cpu on aggressively low fan curves since even a 240 thin would be overkill (and utter overkill is the name of this game). My gpus will share a 140 quad in push pull and my mosfets will either tag along with my cpu loop or be put in a loop of its own. Not entirely sure yet.

 

[n0ns3ns3]

an extremely inefficient VRM can produce 50 watts of heat under some synthetic load for extremely overclocked CPU. the worst i've seen as about 70watt loss for 200A of current - way more than you can safely push to CPU even with LN2.
On normal 8 and up phases from decent manufacturer like asus fro 150USD and more motherboards, the VRM is not worth liquid cooling, not to mention a loop on it's own people do it mostly for the looks or on a very compact boards that do not have enough phases/beefy heatsink on the VRM.
Push pull is seriously overrated. the difference is small. The most practical setup is PULL - much easier to remove the dust that does not get stuck between fans and rad.
And about thicker rads, they are beneficial only on really HIGH RPM. the thing is that air absorbs heat as it travels through the rad fins. by the time it passes 30mm thick rad, its temp can rise by over 10C. so with normal fan speed, the thicker rad does practically nothing beyond occupying more space. that's why thicker rads are more of a marketing than real benefit to a normal home use.
you still want to keep somewhat decent airflow in your case to keep other component's temps in check - VRM/chipset/RAM/storage devices amd basically everything else.

 

[Toxikaraidur]

an extremely inefficient VRM can produce 50 watts of heat under some synthetic load for extremely overclocked CPU. the worst i've seen as about 70watt loss for 200A of current - way more than you can safely push to CPU even with LN2.
On normal 8 and up phases from decent manufacturer like asus fro 150USD and more motherboards, the VRM is not worth liquid cooling, not to mention a loop on it's own people do it mostly for the looks or on a very compact boards that do not have enough phases/beefy heatsink on the VRM.
Push pull is seriously overrated. the difference is small. The most practical setup is PULL - much easier to remove the dust that does not get stuck between fans and rad.
And about thicker rads, they are beneficial only on really HIGH RPM. the thing is that air absorbs heat as it travels through the rad fins. by the time it passes 30mm thick rad, its temp can rise by over 10C. so with normal fan speed, the thicker rad does practically nothing beyond occupying more space. that's why thicker rads are more of a marketing than real benefit to a normal home use.
you still want to keep somewhat decent airflow in your case to keep other component's temps in check - VRM/chipset/RAM/storage devices amd basically everything else.

Just read a review on the motherboard I'll be purchasing. "Even at these elevated voltages [while overclocking the 1700X to 4.2GHz] the VRM heatsink area was still cool to the touch"

Wow... That shocks me. the reviewer in question had a 1.53 Voltage on the cpu and the MOSFETS were still practically ice-cold... (to me ambient is ice cold) I don't particularly care for a set style of aesthetics. I care for performance, longevity, and great temps.

 

[n0ns3ns3]

I hope it was X370 based one.
now with VRM it's a bit tricky. the temperature depends on few factors:
1. Current passing through
2. switching frequency
3. Ambient - remember, the case ambient is significantly higher than the room temperature
4. airflow on the VRM (or actually lack of any)
5. time - i've seen VRMs that it takes couple of hours of extreme load to overheat.
probably few more.

 

[Toxikaraidur]

I hope it was X370 based one.
now with VRM it's a bit tricky. the temperature depends on few factors:
1. Current passing through
2. switching frequency
3. Ambient - remember, the case ambient is significantly higher than the room temperature
4. airflow on the VRM (or actually lack of any)
5. time - i've seen VRMs that it takes couple of hours of extreme load to overheat.
probably few more.

Current passing through: typical which is about 95 amps or so distributed by the number of phases.
that's judging by the TDP of 95 watts at stock voltage.

I don't know what switching frequency is so pardon the wild stab in the dark. Is that the 'switch' from phase to phase of the power? the purpose of a power-phase is to deliver current as a positive wave form while the other stage is in its negative wave form, correct?

Ambient: well, I dunno. I'd say 5 degrees optimistically above outside the case depending on enviornment?

Airflow: if i don't liquid cool it; let's just say the airflow will be sufficient. I'll be having a special fan above them in a custom case.

Time: depends on my workflow needs and how much i like to game on a particular day of the week. roll a dice I guess.

 

[n0ns3ns3]

it's kinda 100A or a bit more with ~1.4v overclock to ~4GHz

Switching frequency is how many times per second phase is turned on and off. depends on the voltage controller and MOSFET model. typically 300-500KHz for a true phase without doublers. the higher the number, the flatter the voltage wave (good), but it comes at the price of lower efficiency - more heat.

Gaming is not an extreme load. encoding videos, rendering images, compiling C/C++ code are the sort of (examples of) heavy CPU loads that can draw "insane" amounts of power. 140 watts easily.

Back to your multi loop plan, a 4x140 rad is way more than needed to cool your CPU. Having all rads in single loop would be much more efficient. you can still use 2 pumps for redundancy and better flow. yo can put them in different points of the loop or using something like this https://www.ekwb.com/shop/ek-xtop-revo-dual-d5-pwm-serial

 

[Toxikaraidur]

it's kinda 100A or a bit more with ~1.4v overclock to ~4GHz

Switching frequency is how many times per second phase is turned on and off. depends on the voltage controller and MOSFET model. typically 300-500KHz for a true phase without doublers. the higher the number, the flatter the voltage wave (good), but it comes at the price of lower efficiency - more heat.

Gaming is not an extreme load. encoding videos, rendering images, compiling C/C++ code are the sort of (examples of) heavy CPU loads that can draw "insane" amounts of power. 140 watts easily.

Back to your multi loop plan, a 4x140 rad is way more than needed to cool your CPU. Having all rads in single loop would be much more efficient. you can still use 2 pumps for redundancy and better flow. yo can put them in different points of the loop or using something like this https://www.ekwb.com/shop/ek-xtop-revo-dual-d5-pwm-serial

I planned on at max doing three loops.
Cpu
2 gpus in one loop
vrms.
Though now that i've found a hard drive waterblock (not as ridiculous as you might thing) i'll probably add that in with something and only do a triple 140mm rad.

main reasons for having a quad 140 rad for cpu alone:
stupidly high headroom
could probably passively cool it without fans (though i'll put fans on anyway in just a pull config)
bragging rights
possible future expandability

 

[n0ns3ns3]

the 4x140 rad for 2 powerful GPUs is on the edge of "cool and quiet". the CPU and everything else together (whatever you find a block for) does not need 4x140 rad. But it will be both "cool and quiet" for all components if you connect them all to 8x140 rads. in that way the rads surface is used most efficiently.
But of course you are free to do as you wish
and no, passive cooling will be bad

 

[Toxikaraidur]

the 4x140 rad for 2 powerful GPUs is on the edge of "cool and quiet". the CPU and everything else together (whatever you find a block for) does not need 4x140 rad. But it will be both "cool and quiet" for all components if you connect them all to 8x140 rads. in that way the rads surface is used most efficiently.
But of course you are free to do as you wish
and no, passive cooling will be bad

I don't have the radiator space for that, I don't care what case I could have. My Destroyer is not an Aircraft Carrier thank you very much.
now if you're saying 8 individual 140 rads that may be 'efficient' by your design but it's more weight on my case, MUCH more tubing than I care to be working with even if I just bought 8 cheapy chips AIO's.
and it's eight sets of software I have to work with without a 'splicing' program in the case of AIO's, and it's more wires than I'm willing to put up with on a case by case basis.

JayzTwoCents already covered passive cooling. If you care for decent temps and want silence, turn off the fans. in his case the only difference was 10 Celsius.

 

[n0ns3ns3]

Lel. man, i'm saying 8x140 as total rad surface. it can be 2x560 or any other way.
jay is a nice guy. unfortunately he is "street smart" so many things he says are not entirely correct or simply wrong.
within closed space, without airflow, the heat dissipation from the rads is just a bit more than next to none.
If i will turn off the fans in my sytem, i'll be able to cook in it. though I'm not sure i'll have enough time before it shutdowns due to overheat.