System Builder Marathon, June 2012: $500 Gaming PC

[blazorthon]

[citation][nom]calguyhunk[/nom]If somebody on the streets had told me that a 560ti will be not just matched but inded bottlenecked by a 'Celeron' I would have prolly just laughed him off as an idiot had it not been for the facts and figures presented by Paul Un-freakin'-believable . To think then what dual cores can still do in a biga$$ PC in this day and age when they're making quad-core cell-phones[/citation]

TBF, four ARM/Medfield cores probably aren't as fast as a single Sandy Bridge core, not even one at 2.4GHz like the Celeron G530 tested here. Heck, they might not even be half as fast as the 1.6GHz single core Celeron G440.

 

[RedJaron]

Sorry, but I need to check out of this thread for a while. Work to do. Thanks ALL for the discussions.

Paul, we greatly appreciate you listening to us.

Blaze and Tourist . . . you two ever think you may have too much time on your hands? Seriously if I ever have questions, I'm not going to post a thread, I'll just direct message either of you.

And yes, the urge to go over budget is so hard to draw a line where to stop. Would you consider removing the ban on shopping for combos and rebates? I know, I know, then the price won't be exactly repeatable for anyone looking to copy the build. However, deals, specials, rebates, and the like occur pretty often, so even if that GPU rebate isn't available at printing time, chances are you can find a special on RAM, a CPU/mboard combo, or get a PSU on clearance.

And like Luny, I'm not all that interested in whether a new SBM can outperform the previous one. What I like to see is if some radically different build can still put up similar numbers to a tried-and-true rig ( which the current scores kind of show, it's true. )

 

[blazorthon]

Paul, we greatly appreciate you listening to us.

Blaze and Tourist . . . you two ever think you may have too much time on your hands? Seriously if I ever have questions, I'm not going to post a thread, I'll just direct message either of you.

And yes, the urge to go over budget is so hard to draw a line where to stop. Would you consider removing the ban on shopping for combos and rebates? I know, I know, then the price won't be exactly repeatable for anyone looking to copy the build. However, deals, specials, rebates, and the like occur pretty often, so even if that GPU rebate isn't available at printing time, chances are you can find a special on RAM, a CPU/mboard combo, or get a PSU on clearance.

And like Luny, I'm not all that interested in whether a new SBM can outperform the previous one. What I like to see is if some radically different build can still put up similar numbers to a tried-and-true rig ( which the current scores kind of show, it's true. )

LOL yeah, I might have too much time to do pretty much whatever Email notifications of new replies in the news, articles, and forums plus a phone which beeps every time I get an email... Sometimes, I can reply pretty darned fast if I'm not busy.

About the suggestion about removing the policy against neweg's combos/deals, I think that might be reasonable. The chances of not getting one at all are often pretty low and even though deals and such aren't always there, many of the same deals pop up periodically and you just have to pay attention to their schedule. MIRs aren't very reliable all of the time, so I don't think that I'd lift the ban on them, but combos and other deals and discounts seem fair to include.

 

[Onus]

I also agree on lifting the combo ban, but keeping the one on MIRs. When building, there's almost always a deal to be had on something, even if it isn't that specific part. Also, someone banking on a MIR to make budget could be disappointed, or may have more pressing needs than building a new rig.

 

[Onus]

To represent the deal(s) that a builder may be able to find, I would suggest keeping the hard $500 budget, but then allowing one of the following:
A combo including up to 3 parts, or one single-part "shellshocker," or overall $25 increase in the build cost.

 

[lunyone]

To reiterate the sentiment: I would allow combo's and promo codes, but don't include MIR's because they don't always work out. I'm also of the belief of sticking to a hard budget limit, as I previously stated. It does make sense to allow some flexibility, but only if it makes sense. Originally Tom's started with a $500 SBM, back in the day, and then it ballooned up to >$600, in order to fit a particular need/want. I think if you don't go over $10-20 on the $500 build that would be more acceptable, with the understanding that you could use combo's and/or promo codes. I would chalk up the extra wiggle room ($10-20) to possible shipping costs, which can happen. I usually try and buy items that have free shipping over ones with $8-15 of shipping. On a $500 build the shipping adds up and can force you to pick other parts that you didn't originally want to buy, in order to fit the budget.

So to recap my thoughts:
* Keep a Firm $500 budget w/combo's and promo codes OR $500 budget w/$10-20 wiggle room (if it makes sense).
* Try to keep a well rounded system
* Good CPU, but not expensive for the budget ~$75 or so.
* Decent Mobo w/good specs and not a gimped or lethargic ~$75 or so.

 

[Guest]

First of all, thanks for the incredible article, I'm amazed by the G530's abilitites time after time. The same goes for these budget builds, just keep 'em coming, especially that the technical climate (PC games are mostly console ports and SB's excellenet performance at low-end segment) is favorable for them.

There is one thing I'm really curious about. It's cool that G530 fits for HD, but what about the low-res gaming?

Because SB are definiately a bestbuy platform and worth investing, I'm about to replace my old AM2+ rig with something like that (H61 + G530 + 4GB RAM). I would like to keep my HIS 3850 OC for now - even though that switching to a 6770 is in my plans if I find one for a right price, but thats nothing but a blurry concept. My new rig would be for decent, everyday use and gaming in my spare time. To my best knowledge, playing at lower resolutions (1024×768 or 1280×1024)* tends to more like CPU-dependent than VGA. That's why I'm a little bit stuck here.

Which would be a better choice for my purposes? Buying an i3-2100 (and saving money to upgrade my VGA later) OR going for a G530 and throwing the remaining budget for a better VGA card? Is it worth investing to a G620 over a G530? Should I build a minimalistic PC (H61/G530/4GB), and later upgrade when I really have to?

Obviously, anybody can say that if I got a budget for i3 or a 6770 (as I have), then go and buy it. But I would like to keep my budget as tight as possible, because: a) as I don't play as much as I did in the past; b) my limitation to low resolution (I have to adapt to that); c) first priority is switching to SB platform for future developments; d) I'm an old PC gamer, but XBOX is cheap these days. =)

Thanks for the answers in advance!

(* - PS.: Yeah, I'm still rockin' quality CRT's from back in the day, I know its somewhat rare but I keep saying that as long as its working like a charm, I won't buy another display. But its successor will be a fullHD Dell with IPS panel).

 

[lunyone]

Low_Res:
Personally I'd go with what tourist says, but I'd get at least a decent mobo to go with your SB/IB CPU. There was a Biostar board for ~$60 on sale, but it's currently not on sale, but here is an example:
$80 shipped w/Promo code: EMCNDJH34


It comes with:
Storage Devices
SATA 3Gb/s
5
SATA 6Gb/s
1 x SATA 6Gb/s

Rear Panel Ports
PS/2
2
Video Ports
D-Sub + DVI
HDMI
1 x HDMI
USB 1.1/2.0
4 x USB 2.0
USB 3.0
2 x USB 3.0

Audio Ports
3 Ports

Internal I/O Connectors
Onboard USB
2 x USB 3.0 + 4 x USB 2.0
Other Connectors
1 x COM port(s) connector(s)
1 x CPU Fan connector(s)
2 x Chassis Fan connector(s)
1 x S/PDIF out header(s)
1 x 24-pin EATX Power connector(s)
1 x 4-pin ATX 12V Power connector(s)
1 x parallel port connector(s)
1 x Front panel audio connector(s) (AAFP)
1 x Internal speaker connector(s)
1 x System panel(s)
1 x Chassis Intrusion connector(s)
1 x MemOK! button(s)

You won't find these USB 3.0 options on a H61 based mobo in this price range. I think it's better to have a good Mobo, especially if you going to keep it for a bit.

 

[lunyone]

Link didn't work, lemme try again:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131836&nm_mc=EMC-IGNEFL061212&cm_mmc=EMC-IGNEFL061212-_-EMC-061212-Index-_-IntelMotherboards-_-13131836-L07B

Name of Board:
ASUS P8B75-M/CSM LGA 1155 Intel B75 HDMI SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 Micro ATX Intel Motherboard

 

[blazorthon]

Paul here is my entry in the 500 sbm build if you were to buy parts today.

I'd recommend getting a cheaper memory kit. Remember, no CF between the 6550D and 7770 and even if there was, the performance boost would be insignificant because of how much faster the 7770 is than the 6550D, even with 1866MHz memory. Spending $15 more than necessary on the memory won't make much of a difference unless you're using the IGP alone or with a much slower card (or cards) than the 7770. I'd take that extra money and spend it on the dual fan Black Edition XFX 7770 instead of the single fan.

 

[blazorthon]

I thought that you'd only need higher speed RAM for BLCK overclocking and even then, you can simply lower the memory frequency's multiplier. Do you need higher speed RAM even if you use multiplier overclocking on Llano?

 

[blazorthon]

[citation][nom]tourist[/nom]yes to reach high 3's you will need to raise the blck, at least on the 3670k. For 3.2 No[/citation]

Then what's the point of K edition APU and why can't you drop the memory multiplier to compensate instead of using more expensive RAM?

 

[blazorthon]

highest x is 42
95 x 42= 3.99 no post
90 x 42=3780 no post
110x 36=3960 this was as far as i could get with 1600 ram

Can't you drop the memory's multiplier or raise it's voltage a little?

 

[blazorthon]

sorry someone walk through my door, the 3.9 was raising cpu voltage by 5 %. Never tried the memory as it worked at the stock 1.5v. On the ecs board forgetaboutit, anything over stock was garbage. also keep in mind there is a liano bug that will show 4 ghz o/c but in actuality is only 3.6. I think it is msi turbo something. i will post a link when i get home if you are interested.

Sure, I'm interested. I don't have a Llano machine to play with right now and since it's the topic at hand, that's a disadvantage

 

[pauldh]

Tourist,

In all honesty despite bouncing this around in my head quite a bit, I am struggling to jump on board a LLano gaming build. I appreciate the complete system, but of utmost concern to me is just getting the right motherboard. Why does the Biostar A55MH get your recommendation? Proven OC capabilities? Any Links to share? The features and Newegg feedback aren't all too stellar.

Should I be content with an unlocked multiplier or demand proven base clock headroom? I'm fine with going IDE to push base clocks if that is what it takes to maximize performance. What I want (besides stability and features) are a flexible OC-friendly BIOS and maximum headroom. IMHO, unless we hit an impressive OC, then a LLano build forfeiting the attractive "free" graphics could likely be attacked by many as a major fail. Then again, I need to consider what CPU's at this price offer the same blend of threaded apps/gaming performance. In a way, I feel we already covered Phenom II and AII enough in the SBMs. Leaving Llano and FX-4100 yet untouched. Both have enough potential to warrant consideration.

Can you enlighten me on the cooler AMD bundles with the A6-3670K? I'm seeing conflicting reports of how sufficeint it is. Some complain it's Sempron quality and nothing like FX coolers. With graphics disabled, will it be sufficeint for a 0.10V CPU bump?

Although I like HD 7770 at current prices, is it enough GPU (given at most we are likely to visit Llano once in an SBM)? I guess this too is 50/50. Some folks will want more GPU (G850+GTX560), others would value a good showing in threaded apps. Tough calls to make when doing this only once per quarter.

 

[blazorthon]

Tourist,

In all honesty despite bouncing this around in my head quite a bit, I am struggling to jump on board a LLano gaming build. I appreciate the complete system, but of utmost concern to me is just getting the right motherboard. Why does the Biostar A55MH get your recommendation? Proven OC capabilities? Any Links to share? The features and Newegg feedback aren't all too stellar.

Should I be content with an unlocked multiplier or demand proven base clock headroom? I'm fine with going IDE to push base clocks if that is what it takes to maximize performance. What I want (besides stability and features) are a flexible OC-friendly BIOS and maximum headroom. IMHO, unless we hit an impressive OC, then a LLano build forfeiting the attractive "free" graphics could likely be attacked by many as a major fail. Then again, I need to consider what CPU's at this price offer the same blend of threaded apps/gaming performance. In a way, I feel we already covered Phenom II and AII enough in the SBMs. Leaving Llano and FX-4100 yet untouched. Both have enough potential to warrant consideration.

Can you enlighten me on the cooler AMD bundles with the A6-3670K? I'm seeing conflicting reports of how sufficeint it is. Some complain it's Sempron quality and nothing like FX coolers. With graphics disabled, will it be sufficeint for a 0.10V CPU bump?

Although I like HD 7770 at current prices, is it enough GPU (given at most we are likely to visit Llano once in an SBM)? I guess this too is 50/50. Some folks will want more GPU (G850+GTX560), others would value a good showing in threaded apps. Tough calls to make when doing this only once per quarter.

I can't argue further in defense of Llano, but some 7770s can overclock as far as or even slightly farther than the GTX 560 can. I can say that with graphics of the APU disabled... Well, that's about half of the chip. The power usage would probably be cut in about half, maybe a little more or less. That would tell me that so long as the cooler is good enough for cooling the APU at stock, it almost undoubtedly must be good enough for cooling the APU with a large CPU overclock and a disabled IGP. Maybe finding an FM1 Athlon II would be a better idea because it would already have the IGP completely disabled and you're not getting charged for the IGP like you would be with any APU model that has the IGP enabled at stock.

 

[de5_Roy]

took a while to read most of the comments.
llano is dead end. the cpus even with unlocked multis are bottlenekcs for discreet card gaming pc. trinity doesn't seem to have enough cpu power to be considered for gaming at 1080p at high gfx settings. apus are very good for mobile and casual gaming and playing with dual gfx. for discreet card Gaming, a strong cpu is a must, imo. i don't consider llano apus as strong cpus.
am3+ still has some distance to go thanks to amd. an fx build for $500 might be interesting. next quarter might have piledriver cpus available as well as desktop trinity apus and their price point 'nemesis'(!) - ivy bridge core i3 and pentiums and igpu-disabled intel cpus. i am saying that next quarter there might be more interesting options for $500 build than just llano.

 

[blazorthon]

took a while to read most of the comments.
llano is dead end. the cpus even with unlocked multis are bottlenekcs for discreet card gaming pc. trinity doesn't seem to have enough cpu power to be considered for gaming at 1080p at high gfx settings. apus are very good for mobile and casual gaming and playing with dual gfx. for discreet card Gaming, a strong cpu is a must, imo. i don't consider llano apus as strong cpus.
am3+ still has some distance to go thanks to amd. an fx build for $500 might be interesting. next quarter might have piledriver cpus available as well as desktop trinity apus and their price point 'nemesis'(!) - ivy bridge core i3 and pentiums and igpu-disabled intel cpus. i am saying that next quarter there might be more interesting options for $500 build than just llano.

I have to disagree. Llano without an IGP and with a large overclock can have very high performance at a very affordable price.

 

[blazorthon]

No more so than a any other cpu including an I-5 2500k

just look
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/gaming-fx-pentium-apu-benchmark,3120-4.html

It depends on the situations. Some gaming situations are far more CPU intensive then others.

 

[Onus]

It isn't optimized yet, and forum comments suggested the game it is still very CPU-bound, but during the recent GW2 Beta Weekend my 3.9GHz PII X4 really struggled; except in cut scenes I was mostly in the upper twenties regardless of graphics settings.

 

[de5_Roy]

No more so than a any other cpu including an I-5 2500k
just look
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/gaming-fx-pentium-apu-benchmark,3120-4.html

i disagree. the cpu portion of 3870k is definitely way weaker than than a 2500k (since that's the one you compared to ) to be considered a 'gaming' cpu at the same level.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/gaming-fx-pentium-apu-benchmark,3120-9.html
and overall
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/gaming-fx-pentium-apu-benchmark,3120-10.html
i know you're a desktop apu owner and will stand by your device's performance. but there are other, better options available.

I have to disagree. Llano without an IGP and with a large overclock can have very high performance at a very affordable price.

in discreet card gaming, within same power margins, without adding cooler price? i don't think so. sbm takes price, power efficiency into account as well as performance. the apus do gain performance with overclock, but one can get the same gaming performance from a core i3 2100 at the same $120 price point, or more, for extra $5 with a core i3 2120. there were athlon llanos available, the ones without igp. i can't find those on newegg.

 

[Onus]

I seems like only a year ago I was saying that a "miserable" little Athlon II X2 260 could play any game (and the charts showed that to be true). It seems that may no longer be the case.
I'm actually glad that at least some software is finally catching up to hardware.

 

[Onus]

Tourist, it appears that you chose one particular GPU-bound game (BF3), in which clearly the APU is essentially as good as a 2500K (I agree that 1-2 FPS is insignificant once you get over about 40FPS).
Overall, however, as http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/gaming-fx-pentium-apu-benchmark,3120-10.html shows, the APU is a lot weaker. If it's always getting that 40FPS or better mark, it may not matter; but if it isn't, it just won't be a great choice. Someone not getting enough performance out of an i5-2500K isn't going to think to himself, "Rats, I should have bought that APU!" APU owners, however, might readily wish they'd opted for the 2500K (or i3-2120, or G860 on a tighter budget).

 

[de5_Roy]

The 2500k is a much better cpu than the 3870k that is not even debatable by any rational person. However De5_Roy that is not what you said ' quote' ' the cpus even with unlocked multis are bottlenekcs for discreet card gaming pc. trinity doesn't seem to have enough cpu power to be considered for gaming at 1080p at high gfx settings.'

I just showed you how wrong that statement was, The benchmark clearly shows the 3870k is bottlenecked by the graphics card no more so than than the 2500k. And i would not call 1 fps second better i call it marginal.

that statement isnt wrong. but you can try to prove me wrong, all you have to do is cherry pick a gpu bound bench. the bottleneck is application specific. the bf3 benchmark does not show the cpu's power. the offline sp mode is quite gpu bound and does not care about cpu. if you strictly play gpu bound games then an apu would suffice i guess. the tests in the sub $200 gaming cpu round up were done to show a cpu or in apu's case, the cpu part's strength and it exposed that an apu is not feasible as a gaming cpu, even unlocked ones. i did say the apu would bottleneck a gaming card but that does not mean someone who can't perceive more than 30-40 fps be happy with an apu and a gaming gfx card. user satisfaction is highly subjective and i suspect, that is what is in action here. to me, if a cpu doesnt flex a powerful gfx card's performance at a given resolution in many games, it's not viable. i know you're an apu owner. i am not trying to undermine your pc's performance here.
as for sbm, the apu simply does not seem viable. unlocked llano's price is high, so is it's power consumption - especially when you take into account it's a 100w component. amd's am3+ platform has better upgradability, diversity and future possibility. fm1 is locked by amd.

 

[de5_Roy]

Everything you say is 100% correct but the 2500k is not even an option in the 500 dollar sbm build, I only pointed it out because it is at the top of the list and clearly shows that modern cpu's are bottlenecked by the 7970. Even the 2500k.

sigh... the 2500k is bottlenecked by a 7970 only in a gpu bound bench. the sub $200 gaming cpu round up was done to explore cpus' gaming strength, which the bf3 benchmark, being gpu bound, didn't show. the only reason 2500k even came up because you brought it up. the 2500k (higher than $200 mark) in that article was used as a scale/standard against which other cpus' gaming performances were measured. the 2500k isn't an option in a $500 sbm build, that's obvious. i hope it clears things up.