Taiwan says Intel hurting them with product launches

[BaronMatrix]

Once again my awareness of the world CPU market has been proven as I said months ago that all of these products will make it hard for vendors to determine which SKUs they should concentrate on.

They have to continually intro new designs and that costs more money. That may be one of the reasons that so many OEMs are teaming up as they can more easily absorb the costs.

I would bet that the small resellers are hurting too as they now have even lower margins with the crazed Core 2 pricing scheme. I figure in three months we'll start hearing about serious problems for those small stores.

Linkage!

 

[CaptRobertApril]

Er... don't you think that the wording of the poll is so skewed as to be pointless?

 

[corvetteguy]

Once again my awareness of the world CPU market has been proven as I said months ago that all of these products will make it hard for vendors to determine which SKUs they should concentrate on.

They have to continually intro new designs and that costs more money. That may be one of the reasons that so many OEMs are teaming up as they can more easily absorb the costs.

I would bet that the small resellers are hurting too as they now have even lower margins with the crazed Core 2 pricing scheme. I figure in three months we'll start hearing about serious problems for those small stores.

Linkage!

WOW baron, way to start a flame bait thread. But good luck to you, as the idea is correct.

 

[NMDante]

But despite of the alarming sounds from Taiwan, there is nothing new in the fact that second-tier mainboard manufacturers have been under heavy fire for several years now, which caused serious reshuffling on the whole market.

I guess it's not that new a thing.

To me, several years means that 2nd tier mobo makers have been feeling this way before C2D or any of Intel's new product introductions.

 

[BaronMatrix]

Er... don't you think that the wording of the poll is so skewed as to be pointless?

No. If you read it, it's kind of funny how the same choice can lead to two effects. Did you vote? There are both positive and negative choices.

 

[BaronMatrix]

But despite of the alarming sounds from Taiwan, there is nothing new in the fact that second-tier mainboard manufacturers have been under heavy fire for several years now, which caused serious reshuffling on the whole market.

I guess it's not that new a thing.

To me, several years means that 2nd tier mobo makers have been feeling this way before C2D or any of Intel's new product introductions.

Exactly, and they are tired of it. That's why AMD will continue to grow. Their business model is more OEM-friendly. And now they are trimming even more SKUs so that by the end of 07 Sempron will be the only single core chip and the desktop will be differentiated by dual, quad and multi-socket quad.

They are supposedly ending the PR rating also so there will not be an X2 8000+. That's a good idea. With Intel, the 4MB cache chips need a different voltage regulator than the 2MB chips so even there they have more than one mobo design.

Next year Intel is introing no fewer than 5 chips, perhaps closer to 10, and including the SKUs that are already ramping, there will be even more chips to choose from.

 

[BaronMatrix]

Once again my awareness of the world CPU market has been proven as I said months ago that all of these products will make it hard for vendors to determine which SKUs they should concentrate on.

They have to continually intro new designs and that costs more money. That may be one of the reasons that so many OEMs are teaming up as they can more easily absorb the costs.

I would bet that the small resellers are hurting too as they now have even lower margins with the crazed Core 2 pricing scheme. I figure in three months we'll start hearing about serious problems for those small stores.

Linkage!

WOW baron, way to start a flame bait thread. But good luck to you, as the idea is correct.


I would have hoped that my first Intel post in awhile would be positive but it is relevant.

 

[BaronMatrix]

Once again my awareness of the world CPU market has been proven as I said months ago that all of these products will make it hard for vendors to determine which SKUs they should concentrate on.

Classic definition of an oxymoron.

Well, gee thx. Hey wait who are you calling an oxymoron.

I have always wanted to use that joke.

 

[NMDante]

But despite of the alarming sounds from Taiwan, there is nothing new in the fact that second-tier mainboard manufacturers have been under heavy fire for several years now, which caused serious reshuffling on the whole market.

I guess it's not that new a thing.

To me, several years means that 2nd tier mobo makers have been feeling this way before C2D or any of Intel's new product introductions.

Exactly, and they are tired of it. That's why AMD will continue to grow. Their business model is more OEM-friendly. And now they are trimming even more SKUs so that by the end of 07 Sempron will be the only single core chip and the desktop will be differentiated by dual, quad and multi-socket quad.

Right. That's why the channel complained when the supposedly OEM friendly AMD decided that DELL and other T1 vendors were more important than them. Please. You're gonna tell me that there won't be any new sockets for any of the processors that AMD will be releasing then, right?

They are supposedly ending the PR rating also so there will not be an X2 8000+. That's a good idea. With Intel, the 4MB cache chips need a different voltage regulator than the 2MB chips so even there they have more than one mobo design.

Really. The PR rating was horrible, and most AMD consumers thought so. When you have the same model number, like 3800+ with 3 different configurations, that's not helpful. As for changing VRs, yes, that's something that sucks, but can you drop a C2Q in a C2D 975x mobo right now? Yes, you can.

Next year Intel is introing no fewer than 5 chips, perhaps closer to 10, and including the SKUs that are already ramping, there will be even more chips to choose from.

Fine. I would rather have multiple choices than 1 or 2 choices that might or might not be socket compatible when the next CPU release is due. If AM2+ or AM3 does work with AM2, that's great, if it doesn't, won't that make more undue stress for the hurting T2 Taiwan mobo makers for newer AM2+/AM3 boards?

 

[the_vorlon]

If you are a little guy, it's tough.

This is news?

 

[epsilon84]

I would bet that the small resellers are hurting too as they now have even lower margins with the crazed Core 2 pricing scheme.

What exactly is 'crazy' about Core2 pricing? It's not like Intel is selling them for $50, the cheapest C2D is the $183 E6300 and that is actually higher than what most 'average Joes' will pay for a CPU. Look at a friggen Dell brochure and see how many P4 HTs and A64s machines there are compared to C2D.

In the consumer world, $183 is not cheap for a CPU. A $50 Sempron or Celeron is cheap. A $100 P4 or A64 is mid end. A C2D or X2 is considered high end.

I'm getting sick of your whining at C2D pricing and your accusations Intel is being anticompetitive. There is no law stating that a low end chip from a new architecture cannot be under $200. :roll:

If it were not for Intels pricing structure I would not be able to afford C2D - simple as that. I wanted to upgrade to an X2 before C2D was launched but the price was prohibitive.

AMDs X2 3800+ at the time of C2D launch was around $300 IIRC. This means if Intel wanted to match AMDs pricing scheme relative to performance the E6300 would go for $350, the E6400 $500, E6600 $1000. Thank god common sense prevailed. Even AMD fanboys have Intel to thank that they can finally buy their X2s at reasonable prices.

 

[Oldguy]

Not terribly concerned about the fate of second tier MB makers of any nationality. Most of us here are concerned about top tier makers. In any event, the best possible world for these fine tech companies would be to have one processor from one company to work with. The processor advances by AMD and Intel with all their branching is absolutely great for people who are in the market for specific purposes. Right at this moment AMD is the best priced solution for entry level and most general computing home users while Intel is best choice for enthusiasts/gamers - a complete reversal of what was generally true less than a year ago and subject to possible re-reversal in the future. Mobile, servers and other markets are fluid. I say great - it pushes development and pricing, making it better for us. If a MB/chipset/component maker with limited resources attempts to service all segments - I would suggest the business plan is flawed. Choose what you do best and do it better than the next guy and you win. If, for example, that means the best AM2 QFX board to the exclusion of others - then do that and don't let the sales weenies whine about not having a product to compete against the Striker Extreme.

 

[darkstar782]

We are ok now, but in the future there will be too many.

e6300, e6320, e4300, the new ones without VT, the 1333FSB versions....

We don't need this many variants 5 models (e6300, e6400, e6600, e6700, x6800) is enough. MAYBE the e4300 is justified to give a 3800 X2 competitor.

Specific models with VT disabled is just stupid.

 

[Synergy6]

Er... don't you think that the wording of the poll is so skewed as to be pointless?

No. If you read it, it's kind of funny how the same choice can lead to two effects. Did you vote? There are both positive and negative choices.

There should be a 5th option. Like... "No, the question is badly constructed and frankly irrelevant" or "Yes, if ticking this option will persuade you to research your own topic for say.. 5 minutes." Even just adding "Yes" and "No" as options would be good.

As ever, just a thought.
Synergy6

 

[BaronMatrix]

Right. That's why the channel complained when the supposedly OEM friendly AMD decided that DELL and other T1 vendors were more important than them. Please. You're gonna tell me that there won't be any new sockets for any of the processors that AMD will be releasing then, right?

That has lasted for about a month and AMD apologized saying that they underestimated the demand for laptops. That was proven with recent news that laptops will overtake desktops in units next year.


Really. The PR rating was horrible, and most AMD consumers thought so. When you have the same model number, like 3800+ with 3 different configurations, that's not helpful. As for changing VRs, yes, that's something that sucks, but can you drop a C2Q in a C2D 975x mobo right now? Yes, you can.

Yes, you can, but I don't think I would ever buy Intel now. It would be like being lumped in with the people who voted for Bush. PERISH THE THOUGHT!


Fine. I would rather have multiple choices than 1 or 2 choices that might or might not be socket compatible when the next CPU release is due. If AM2+ or AM3 does work with AM2, that's great, if it doesn't, won't that make more undue stress for the hurting T2 Taiwan mobo makers for newer AM2+/AM3 boards?

There are several differences. First, AM2+ will work in AM2 which means people have the choice of getting a moderate increase without all the bells and whistles or replace CPU/mobo and get the full upgrade. Second, because of the IMC, the chipsets for all SKUs dont' require tweaking to work with the different processors, which is why everything works with nForce 4, including Opteron.

 

[NMDante]

That has lasted for about a month and AMD apologized saying that they underestimated the demand for laptops. That was proven with recent news that laptops will overtake desktops in units next year.

Right. But again, the channel still felt like 2nd class citizens to T1 OEMs. An apology is nice, but supplying the same people who kept the company afloat is better.

You can keep spouting excuses about laptops vs. desktops. I'm sure Joe T2 Channel OEM vendor really loves that excuse.

Yes, you can, but I don't think I would ever buy Intel now. It would be like being lumped in with the people who voted for Bush. PERISH THE THOUGHT!

Right. So, every Intel owner is a Bush supporter. That's plain stupid.

You would never buy an Intel product because YOU believe that would mean YOU think it's a better product. And we all know YOU don't ever want to really believe that, so YOU won't buy an Intel product. Hey, that's fine and dandy...but to generalize and lump all Intel owners as Republicans or even Bush supporters is pretty lame...you must be stretching for support, aren't ya?


There are several differences. First, AM2+ will work in AM2 which means people have the choice of getting a moderate increase without all the bells and whistles or replace CPU/mobo and get the full upgrade. Second, because of the IMC, the chipsets for all SKUs dont' require tweaking to work with the different processors, which is why everything works with nForce 4, including Opteron.

AM2+ in AM2 is not proven yet, is it? Have you seen an AM2+ CPU work on an AM2 board? No. It's all speculation. Just like when people believed that certain 975x boards would support C2D, and some didn't. Until AM2+/AM3 does work on an AM2 board, all this talk of compatiblity is speculation.

 

[BaronMatrix]

I would bet that the small resellers are hurting too as they now have even lower margins with the crazed Core 2 pricing scheme.

What exactly is 'crazy' about Core2 pricing? It's not like Intel is selling them for $50, the cheapest C2D is the $183 E6300 and that is actually higher than what most 'average Joes' will pay for a CPU. Look at a friggen Dell brochure and see how many P4 HTs and A64s machines there are compared to C2D.

In the consumer world, $183 is not cheap for a CPU. A $50 Sempron or Celeron is cheap. A $100 P4 or A64 is mid end. A C2D or X2 is considered high end.

I'm getting sick of your whining at C2D pricing and your accusations Intel is being anticompetitive. There is no law stating that a low end chip from a new architecture cannot be under $200. :roll:

If it were not for Intels pricing structure I would not be able to afford C2D - simple as that. I wanted to upgrade to an X2 before C2D was launched but the price was prohibitive.

AMDs X2 3800+ at the time of C2D launch was around $300 IIRC. This means if Intel wanted to match AMDs pricing scheme relative to performance the E6300 would go for $350, the E6400 $500, E6600 $1000. Thank god common sense prevailed. Even AMD fanboys have Intel to thank that they can finally buy their X2s at reasonable prices.


Here is the price of the 965EE which is totally embarrassed humilated and beaten like a step child by that $183 chip.

PD 950 Presler $209
PD 925 Presler $137
PD 965EE $969
PD 960 Presler $369
Xeon 3.6 Irwindale $702


That's crazy. That undercut their whole prior inventory.

 

[BaronMatrix]

Er... don't you think that the wording of the poll is so skewed as to be pointless?

No. If you read it, it's kind of funny how the same choice can lead to two effects. Did you vote? There are both positive and negative choices.

There should be a 5th option. Like... "No, the question is badly constructed and frankly irrelevant" or "Yes, if ticking this option will persuade you to research your own topic for say.. 5 minutes." Even just adding "Yes" and "No" as options would be good.

As ever, just a thought.
Synergy6

What a contribution. There are mitigating factors in the answer to any question. I hoped I framed choices that would allow for reflection and not just me harping about the "evil Intel."

I guess you didn't vote.

 

[Synergy6]

What a contribution. There are mitigating factors in the answer to any question. I hoped I framed choices that would allow for reflection and not just me harping about the "evil Intel."

I guess you didn't vote.

As you may have guessed, I don't value this thread overly highly. Rather than just bitch, I gave suggestions as to what, imo, would make it better. So, I accept your compliment

I'm also confused by your points in a previous post, circa the 956EE pricing. Are you saying Intel are doing something bad by "undercut(ting) their whole prior inventory"? What else can they do?
1) Screw the consumer by slowing C2D development simply to get more EEs out the door.
2) Screw the consumer by pricing the E6300 at $2000+ to reflect performance differences.
3) Do the inverse of the above by selling the EE at $30, far below the cost of production. (And also flooding the market.)

None of the above seem overly appealing. If Intel lose money on EEs, or some TierII makers get bitchy, I can live with that. Bring on the product launches Because at the end of the day, between me having a better CPU or a Taiwanese mobo manufacturer getting 5 cents extra profit per board, I know what I want.

Synergy6

 

[BaronMatrix]

What a contribution. There are mitigating factors in the answer to any question. I hoped I framed choices that would allow for reflection and not just me harping about the "evil Intel."

I guess you didn't vote.

As you may have guessed, I don't value this thread overly highly. Rather than just bitch, I gave suggestions as to what, imo, would make it better. So, I accept your compliment

I'm also confused by your points in a previous post, circa the 956EE pricing. Are you saying Intel are doing something bad by "undercut(ting) their whole prior inventory"? What else can they do?
1) Screw the consumer by slowing C2D development simply to get more EEs out the door.
2) Screw the consumer by pricing the E6300 at $2000+ to reflect performance differences.
3) Do the inverse of the above by selling the EE at $30, far below the cost of production. (And also flooding the market.)

None of the above seem overly appealing. If Intel lose money on EEs, or some TierII makers get bitchy, I can live with that. Bring on the product launches Because at the end of the day, between me having a better CPU or a Taiwanese mobo manufacturer getting 5 cents extra profit per board, I know what I want.

Synergy6

Yes, they undercut themselves. I have been upgrading CPUs since 1994 and whenever a new gen comes out it gets slotted in as the previous high end price. The older chips then drop in price. NEVER HAS Intel (or any other manufacturer) intro'd a newer chip and priced it less than the old stock.

If E6300 wipes up the floor with the flagship chip how much are the slower models worth?

 

[r0ck]

I have yet to vote for this poll because it makes no sense.

Is the price war and too many SKUs hurting people selling CPUs?

No, they were barely making money anyway.
So now they can make even less money?

No, they can just use cheaper parts elsewhere.
What?

Yes, they were barely making money anyway.
Is them barely making money anyway a good thing or a bad thing?

Yes, Intel has more reserves so they can weather this
What does Intel weathering frequent changes in tech have to do with mainboard makers?

 

[evilr00t]

They are supposedly ending the PR rating also so there will not be an X2 8000+. That's a good idea. With Intel, the 4MB cache chips need a different voltage regulator than the 2MB chips so even there they have more than one mobo design.

Bullshit. Post links or suffer humiliation.

 

[corvetteguy]

I have yet to vote for this poll because it makes no sense.

Is the price war and too many SKUs hurting people selling CPUs?

No, they were barely making money anyway.
So now they can make even less money?

No, they can just use cheaper parts elsewhere.
What?

Yes, they were barely making money anyway.
Is them barely making money anyway a good thing or a bad thing?

Yes, Intel has more reserves so they can weather this
What does Intel weathering frequent changes in tech have to do with mainboard makers?

LOL, I love the second one... What?

LMAO

 

[BaronMatrix]

Here you go, same silly argument.

Again, you know not what you post.

So the 965EE beats the E6300?

 

[BaronMatrix]

They are supposedly ending the PR rating also so there will not be an X2 8000+. That's a good idea. With Intel, the 4MB cache chips need a different voltage regulator than the 2MB chips so even there they have more than one mobo design.

Bullshit. Post links or suffer humiliation.

Forgive him for he knows not what he posts.

So the E6600-up don't need a different VR because of the higher cache?
Or did HKEPC not just post that AMD is doing away with PR ratings for the Stars processors?