tatsumasa question

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marcus

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

does tatsumasa, the dragons fang have to be equipped for you to be able to
bring out the 5/5 dragon. also if i remove the dragon from the game instead
of putting it in the graveyard does it come back.

Tatsumasa, the dragon's fang (6)

equipped creature gets +5/+5

(6), remove tatsumasa, the dragon's fang from the game 😛ut a 5/5 blue
dragon spirit creature token with flying into play. return tatsumasa to
play under its owner's crontrol when that token is put into a graveyard.

equip (3)
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Marcus <jojothebadclown@hotmail.com> wrote:

> does tatsumasa, the dragons fang have to be equipped for you to be able to
> bring out the 5/5 dragon.

No. The ability doesn't have any restriction like "Play this ability
only if Tatsumasa is equipped to a creature."

> also if i remove the dragon from the game instead
> of putting it in the graveyard does it come back.

No. It says "when that token is put into a graveyard", not "when that
token leaves play".
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

The monkey on Daniel W. Johnson 's shoulder blithered...
>
> No. It says "when that token is put into a graveyard", not "when that
> token leaves play".

So do tokens actually get put in the graveyard? I always heard that they
got "voided"... Does that mean they can be retrieved from the said
graveyard as well?
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Tokens cease to exist when they it the graveyard.
They will/can activate abilities they say "when a creature goes to/put
in the graveyard ...."

Lopti wrote:

> The monkey on Daniel W. Johnson 's shoulder blithered...
>
>>No. It says "when that token is put into a graveyard", not "when that
>>token leaves play".
>
>
> So do tokens actually get put in the graveyard? I always heard that they
> got "voided"... Does that mean they can be retrieved from the said
> graveyard as well?
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Lopti <flame@nospam.linoge.net> wrote:

> So do tokens actually get put in the graveyard? I always heard that they
> got "voided"...

A token changing zones will set off triggered abilities before the token
ceases to exist.

> Does that mean they can be retrieved from the said
> graveyard as well?

Once a token has left play, it can't be returned to play by any means.

216.3. A token in a zone other than the in-play zone ceases to exist.
This is a state-based effect. (Note that a token changing zones will set
off triggered abilities before the token ceases to exist.) Once a token
has left play, it can't be returned to play by any means.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Lopti <flame@nospam.linoge.net> wrote in
news:Xns957DE92267C88flamenospamlinogenet@130.207.244.116:

> The monkey on Daniel W. Johnson 's shoulder blithered...
>>
>> No. It says "when that token is put into a graveyard", not "when
>> that token leaves play".
>
> So do tokens actually get put in the graveyard? I always heard that
> they got "voided"... Does that mean they can be retrieved from the
> said graveyard as well?
>

Does the Tatsumasa dragons fang come back if the token is removed
from the game?
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Drakk wrote:
> Lopti <flame@nospam.linoge.net> wrote in
> news:Xns957DE92267C88flamenospamlinogenet@130.207.244.116:
>
>
>>The monkey on Daniel W. Johnson 's shoulder blithered...
>>
>>>No. It says "when that token is put into a graveyard", not "when
>>>that token leaves play".
>>
>>So do tokens actually get put in the graveyard? I always heard that
>>they got "voided"... Does that mean they can be retrieved from the
>>said graveyard as well?
>>
>
>
> Does the Tatsumasa dragons fang come back if the token is removed
> from the game?

As mentionned by Daniel W. Johnson,

No.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Drakk <drak@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Lopti <flame@nospam.linoge.net> wrote in
> news:Xns957DE92267C88flamenospamlinogenet@130.207.244.116:
>
> > The monkey on Daniel W. Johnson 's shoulder blithered...
> >>
> >> No. It says "when that token is put into a graveyard", not "when
> >> that token leaves play".
> >
> > So do tokens actually get put in the graveyard? I always heard that
> > they got "voided"... Does that mean they can be retrieved from the
> > said graveyard as well?
> >
>
> Does the Tatsumasa dragons fang come back if the token is removed
> from the game?

No. It says "when that token is put into a graveyard", not "when that
token leaves play".
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 01:58:52 GMT, Marcus <jojothebadclown@hotmail.com> wrote:
>does tatsumasa, the dragons fang have to be equipped for you to be able to
>bring out the 5/5 dragon.

Nope. That activated aility doesn't say anything about "equipped creature".
You can do it whether it's sitting off by itself, or whether it's on a
creature.

>also if i remove the dragon from the game instead
>of putting it in the graveyard does it come back.

Nope. "Return ~ to play under its owner's control when that token is put into a
graveyard."; the effect doesn't say anything about setting up any "Return ~ to
play under its owner's control when that token is removed from the game"
delayed triggered ability. The one it does set up only watches for that token
to be put into a graveyard (from play); if the token gets bounced, removed from
the game, or shuffled into a library, Tatsumasa isn't coming back.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Lopti, worshipped by llamas the world over, wrote...
> The monkey on Daniel W. Johnson 's shoulder blithered...
> >
> > No. It says "when that token is put into a graveyard", not "when that
> > token leaves play".
>
> So do tokens actually get put in the graveyard?

Yes.

> I always heard that they
> got "voided"...

They cease to exist as a state-based effect right after they go to any
zone other than the in-play zone. So they go to the graveyard, which
triggers any effects that care about that, but before anyone can do
anything else (including resolve said triggers), they go poof.
Therefore...

> Does that mean they can be retrieved from the said
> graveyard as well?

.... no, there is no way to retrieve a token from the graveyard, since by
the time anything that would do that can even be *announced* (much less
resolve), they're gone.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Lopti <flame@nospam.linoge.net> wrote:
>The monkey on Daniel W. Johnson 's shoulder blithered...
>> No. It says "when that token is put into a graveyard", not "when that
>> token leaves play".
>
>So do tokens actually get put in the graveyard?

Yes, they do. Then a state-based effect causes them to cease to exist, from the
graveyard, before anything else can be announced or resolved or done.

> I always heard that they got "voided"...

Never heard that term. They do cease to exist once they leave play, but they
have to leave play first for the state-based effect to apply.

> Does that mean they can be retrieved from the said graveyard as well?

No; a), there is no way to do this existing in Magic, b) if there were such
a way you couldn't use it before state-based effects were checked for, and c)
the rules explicitly prohibit it anyway, 216.3 . Once a token leaves play, it
isn't allowed to come back, and vanishes before the next time any player can
actually take any action.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 03:12:20 GMT, Drakk <drak@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Does the Tatsumasa dragons fang come back if the token is removed
>from the game?

No, because nothing in the Fang's effect text says it would. The Fang's effect
just sets up a delayed triggered ability which watches for the token to GO TO
THE GRAVEYARD (from play, since that's the only place tokens exist); it does
not also set up some other ability which watches for it to be removed from the
game, and does not set up an ability which watches for it to just plain leave
play.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Drakk, worshipped by llamas the world over, wrote...
> Lopti <flame@nospam.linoge.net> wrote in
> news:Xns957DE92267C88flamenospamlinogenet@130.207.244.116:
>
> > The monkey on Daniel W. Johnson 's shoulder blithered...
> >>
> >> No. It says "when that token is put into a graveyard", not "when
> >> that token leaves play".
> >
> > So do tokens actually get put in the graveyard? I always heard that
> > they got "voided"... Does that mean they can be retrieved from the
> > said graveyard as well?
> >
>
> Does the Tatsumasa dragons fang come back if the token is removed
> from the game?

Daniel already answered that in the second post in this thread, but in
case you missed it for whatever reason, no, if the token is removed from
the game, Tatsumasa does not come back into play.

Note, however, that this only applies when the token goes directly from
the in-play zone to the removed from game zone (or for that matter, any
other zone besides the graveyard) - for example, if it gets hit with
Swords to Plowshares. If it goes to the graveyard, then ceases to exist
(which in any event is not the same thing as being removed from the
game), which will always happen if it goes to the graveyard, this does
NOT prevent the Tatsumasa from coming back.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Marcus, worshipped by llamas the world over, wrote...
> does tatsumasa, the dragons fang have to be equipped for you to be able to
> bring out the 5/5 dragon.

No. For such a limitation to exist, the card would have to specifically
say so. (Note that if you remove the Tatsumasa from the game in this
fashion and it later returns to play, it will not be equipped on any
creature when it returns, regardless of whether it was equipped when you
removed it).

> also if i remove the dragon from the game instead
> of putting it in the graveyard does it come back.

No. The ability specifically mentions the graveyard - it does not say
"when that token leaves play".

> Tatsumasa, the dragon's fang (6)
>
> equipped creature gets +5/+5
>
> (6), remove tatsumasa, the dragon's fang from the game 😛ut a 5/5 blue
> dragon spirit creature token with flying into play. return tatsumasa to
> play under its owner's crontrol when that token is put into a graveyard.
>
> equip (3)
>
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Marcus sez:

<<
>
>does tatsumasa, the dragons fang have to be equipped for you to be able to
>bring out the 5/5 dragon.
>>

Nope. Nowhere in its second ability says it has to be equipped. It would've
ended "Play this ability only when Tatsumasa is equipped to a creature" had it
done so.

<<
>also if i remove the dragon from the game instead
>of putting it in the graveyard does it come back.
>>

Nope. Again, focusing what the card actually says, and it specifically says
when that Dragon Spirit is put into a graveyard is when Tatsumasa comes back.
If the token is returned to hand or returned to library or RFG or phased out,
the Fang is gone.


----
If [Michael Moore] makes a mistake in [F 9/11], it's not that he's careless
with the facts ... It's that he suggests Bush is the cause of our problems,
when, in fact, Bush is just the result.
--The Libertarian Lessons of Fahrenheit 9/11
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Lopti sez:

<<
>The monkey on Daniel W. Johnson 's shoulder blithered...
>>
>> No. It says "when that token is put into a graveyard", not "when that
>> token leaves play".
>
>So do tokens actually get put in the graveyard?
>>

Well, sure they go to the graveyard...

<<
> I always heard that they
>got "voided"...
>>

....just long enough for triggers to catch it, then they cease to exist the next
time SBE's are checked.

<<
>Does that mean they can be retrieved from the said
>graveyard as well?
>
>
>>

Nope, since by the time you could, they're gone.


----
If [Michael Moore] makes a mistake in [F 9/11], it's not that he's careless
with the facts ... It's that he suggests Bush is the cause of our problems,
when, in fact, Bush is just the result.
--The Libertarian Lessons of Fahrenheit 9/11
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Lopti wrote:

> The monkey on Daniel W. Johnson 's shoulder blithered...
>>
>> No. It says "when that token is put into a graveyard", not "when that
>> token leaves play".
>
> So do tokens actually get put in the graveyard?

Yes, of course.

> I always heard that they
> got "voided"...

Um, "voided"?

> Does that mean they can be retrieved from the said
> graveyard as well?

No, because they cease to exist as a state-based effect upon
going there. So the token goes to the graveyard (and anything
that might be looking for it going to the graveyard sees it
do so) but then immediately vaporizes. The same thing applies
if the token is removed from play into any other zone as
well (put in your hand, in your library, removed from the game,
etc).

--
Christopher Mattern

"Which one you figure tracked us?"
"The ugly one, sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"
 
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