Tenderfoot/Oathkeeper

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From today's "Saturday School":

<<
Q: A flipped Bushi Tenderfoot is in play as Kenzo, equipped with an Oathkeeper.
If Kenzo is on his way to the graveyard for one reason or another, does the
Oathkeeper bring him back? Furthermore, does this interaction use the stack?
Would it return Bushi Tenderfoot if he had a bushido counter from Sensei
Golden-Tail? Does a samurai returned with Oathkeeper retain any counters, local
enchantments or equipment? --Aaron T.

A: Oathkeeper, Takeno's Daisho will return a flipped Bushi Tenderfoot (ie:
Kenzo the Hardhearted) or a creature trained by Sensei Golden-Tail. When the
equipped creature leaves play, the game state immediately prior to that is
checked for triggers [CR 410.10d]; the Daisho will see that before dying, the
creature was a samurai. This triggered ability does use the stack (like all
non-mana triggered abilities).

When a card leaves play, it forgets everything about its previous life.
Counters, effects, enchantments, and equipment will not return or be
reattached. Sensei Golden-Tail's effect will end, and Kenzo will return to play
as a plain Bushi Tenderfoot.
>>

OK, I could have sworn that this question was asked around here, and Dave gave
the exact opposite answer for the reasoning in the second paragraph of John's
answer. The ability on resolution checks the CARD to see if it's a Samurai and
only then makes the decision whether or not to return it.

Am I right, or am I seeing things again?


----
Just say "No" to the draft!

 

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djaxmann@aol.computer (Andy Jakcsy) wrote in message news:<20041204055853.09653.00001002@mb-m20.aol.com>...
> OK, I could have sworn that this question was asked around here, and Dave gave
> the exact opposite answer for the reasoning in the second paragraph of John's
> answer. The ability on resolution checks the CARD to see if it's a Samurai and
> only then makes the decision whether or not to return it.
>
> Am I right, or am I seeing things again?

Nope, you're not imagining things. Dave answered the same question on
2004-09-15 just the opposite way. In fact, the ChK FAQ did too.

* Oathkeeper's second ability checks whether the card's creature type
* is Samurai, not whether the creature was a Samurai when it left
* play.


> Just say "No" to the draft!

What, you don't like drafting??

 

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On 04 Dec 2004 10:58:53 GMT, djaxmann@aol.computer (Andy Jakcsy)
wrote:

>From today's "Saturday School":
>
><<
>Q: A flipped Bushi Tenderfoot is in play as Kenzo, equipped with an Oathkeeper.
>If Kenzo is on his way to the graveyard for one reason or another, does the
>Oathkeeper bring him back? Furthermore, does this interaction use the stack?
>Would it return Bushi Tenderfoot if he had a bushido counter from Sensei
>Golden-Tail? Does a samurai returned with Oathkeeper retain any counters, local
>enchantments or equipment? --Aaron T.
>
>A: Oathkeeper, Takeno's Daisho will return a flipped Bushi Tenderfoot (ie:
>Kenzo the Hardhearted) or a creature trained by Sensei Golden-Tail. When the
>equipped creature leaves play, the game state immediately prior to that is
>checked for triggers [CR 410.10d]; the Daisho will see that before dying, the
>creature was a samurai. This triggered ability does use the stack (like all
>non-mana triggered abilities).
>
>When a card leaves play, it forgets everything about its previous life.
>Counters, effects, enchantments, and equipment will not return or be
>reattached. Sensei Golden-Tail's effect will end, and Kenzo will return to play
>as a plain Bushi Tenderfoot.
>>>
>
>OK, I could have sworn that this question was asked around here, and Dave gave
>the exact opposite answer for the reasoning in the second paragraph of John's
>answer. The ability on resolution checks the CARD to see if it's a Samurai and
>only then makes the decision whether or not to return it.

Yep, that was me asking Dave why it said this in the Champions of
Kamigawa FAQ:

* Oathkeeper's second ability checks whether the card's creature type
is Samurai, not whether the creature was a Samurai when it left play.

So yes, I'm with you in that John made a mistake.
As far as Dave explained it, then "Whenever equipped creature is put
into a graveyard from play" is the trigger that puts the ability on
the stack, and "return that card to play under your control if it's a
Samurai" is the part that resolves later when the card is in the
graveyard, and thus the "if" refers to the card, as it is at resolve
time, in the graveyard.


Oathkeeper, Takeno's Daisho
{3}
Legendary Artifact -- Equipment
Equipped creature gets +3/+1.
Whenever equipped creature is put into a graveyard from play, return
that card to play under your control if it's a Samurai.
When Oathkeeper, Takeno's Daisho is put into a graveyard from play,
remove equipped creature from the game.
Equip {2}

--
Regards
Simon Nejmann

 

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On 04 Dec 2004 10:58:53 GMT, Andy Jakcsy <djaxmann@aol.computer> wrote:
>From today's "Saturday School":
><<
>Q: A flipped Bushi Tenderfoot is in play as Kenzo, equipped with an Oathkeeper.
>If Kenzo is on his way to the graveyard for one reason or another, does the
>Oathkeeper bring him back? Furthermore, does this interaction use the stack?
>Would it return Bushi Tenderfoot if he had a bushido counter from Sensei
>Golden-Tail? Does a samurai returned with Oathkeeper retain any counters, local
>enchantments or equipment? --Aaron T.
>
>A: Oathkeeper, Takeno's Daisho will return a flipped Bushi Tenderfoot (ie:
>Kenzo the Hardhearted) or a creature trained by Sensei Golden-Tail. When the
>equipped creature leaves play, the game state immediately prior to that is
>checked for triggers [CR 410.10d]; the Daisho will see that before dying, the
>creature was a samurai. This triggered ability does use the stack (like all
>non-mana triggered abilities).

Alas, this is not correct.

>OK, I could have sworn that this question was asked around here, and Dave gave
>the exact opposite answer for the reasoning in the second paragraph of John's
>answer. The ability on resolution checks the CARD to see if it's a Samurai and
>only then makes the decision whether or not to return it.

Right. John may not (gasp) have read the card text, and may have THOUGHT it
was worded "from play, if it's a Samurai, return..." (which still doesn't give
the answer above) or "Whenever equipped Samurai is put into a graveyard from
play, return...".

>Am I right, or am I seeing things again?

I'll email him.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Caurador sez:

<<
>> Just say "No" to the draft!
>
>What, you don't like drafting??

>
>>

....Well, I'm not averse to Magic drafting, or sports drafting...it's a military
draft I'm saying "no" to...


----
Just say "No" to the draft!