The best pop production ever?

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Was putting a repaired phono headamp back in my system and got off on a
listening kick to Judy Collin's "Judith" album from 1975 (Electra vinyl) and
1992 (?) (Electra HDCD).

This is the album that contained Judy's grammy-winning cover of "Send In The
Clowns". In addition it features covers of lots of other great songs
including "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" by Jimmy Webb, "Salt of the Earth"
by Mick Jagger & Keith Richard, "Brother Can You Spare a Dime" by Jay
Gorney, "City of New Orleans" by Steve Goodman, and "I'll Be Seeing You" by
Sammy Fain & Irving Kahal. How's that for eclecticism?
Plus Judy contributes three of her own songs which by any standard are above
average...the best (arguably) of which is "Born to the Breed", a song about
her 15 year old son leaving to become a 'guitar man' with a band.

The album was overseen and recorded by Phil Ramone with the most tasteful
use of his "wall of sound" that I've ever heard, and the HDCD was also
overseen by him in the remastering. Arif Mardin (brought out of retirement
recently to produce Nora Jones grammy-winning album and her latest effort)
produced the album and did most of the arrangements. Three however were done
by Jonathan Tunick including "Send In The Clowns" and "Brother Can You Spare
a Dime" which is every bit as outstandingly arranged and haunting as is
"Send in the Clowns". On these three, the studio band was replaced with a
full studio orchestra (live, not sampled) consisting of five woodwinds, two
horns, three trombones, a harp, a piano, a celsta, a guitar, an upright
bass, two violas, fourteen violins, two celli, and a percussionist. Try to
find that today!

The terrific song selection is due to the excellent taste of both Judy and
Arif, and the singing, playing, recording, and mastering are all superb.
The Electra vinyl is heavyweight, clean, and quiet without a trace of
distortion or obvious frequency or dynamic limitations. The HDCD is itself
one of the three best pop CD's I've every heard from a sound standpoint.
SACD or DVD-A might bring a little extra to this CD, but the room for
improvement over either the HDCD or vinyl is so small as to be moot.

I'd urge you to look this one up. Or if you already have it, get it out and
play it. To me, it represents the pinnacle of American pop music making.

Harry Lavo
"It don't mean a thing if it aint got that swing" - Duke Ellington

 

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"Harry Lavo" <harry.lavo@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:fezlc.25196$I%1.1681822@attbi_s51...
> Was putting a repaired phono headamp back in my system and got off on a
> listening kick to Judy Collin's "Judith" album from 1975 (Electra vinyl)
and
> 1992 (?) (Electra HDCD).
>
There are more than a fist full of Cat Stevens albums from the same period,
written, sung and some mastered in part by Yusaf himself that knock the
dress off of anything by Judy.

 

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"Norman Schwartz" <nmsz1@att.net> wrote in message
news:KwAlc.17666$IG1.651359@attbi_s04...
> "Harry Lavo" <harry.lavo@rcn.com> wrote in message
> news:fezlc.25196$I%1.1681822@attbi_s51...
> > Was putting a repaired phono headamp back in my system and got off on a
> > listening kick to Judy Collin's "Judith" album from 1975 (Electra vinyl)
> and
> > 1992 (?) (Electra HDCD).
> >
> There are more than a fist full of Cat Stevens albums from the same
period,
> written, sung and some mastered in part by Yusaf himself that knock the
> dress off of anything by Judy.
>
I've got all of them. We used them as voice and guitar references at The
Abso!ute Sound (should have heard them on the big Maggie system).

However, for overall pinnacle of song selection, arrangement,
recording...simply the combined talents of lots of the most gifted at their
task...at their peak...this is my nominee.

 

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"Harry Lavo" <harry.lavo@rcn.com> wrote in message news:<fezlc.25196$I%1.1681822@attbi_s51>...

>
> The album was overseen and recorded by Phil Ramone with the most tasteful
> use of his "wall of sound" that I've ever heard

Phil Spector is the producer most commonly associated with the "wall
of sound". Phil Ramone has been content to amass his wall of gold
without succumbing to a particular sonic signature.

 

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"Buster Mudd" <mr_furious@mail.com> wrote in message
newskSlc.33539$I%1.2039169@attbi_s51...
> "Harry Lavo" <harry.lavo@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:<fezlc.25196$I%1.1681822@attbi_s51>...
>
> >
> > The album was overseen and recorded by Phil Ramone with the most
tasteful
> > use of his "wall of sound" that I've ever heard
>
> Phil Spector is the producer most commonly associated with the "wall
> of sound". Phil Ramone has been content to amass his wall of gold
> without succumbing to a particular sonic signature.
>

You are right...my bad. No wonder it sounded so good.

 

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Harry Lavo wrote:


>"Norman Schwartz" <nmsz1@att.net> wrote in message
>news:KwAlc.17666$IG1.651359@attbi_s04...
>> "Harry Lavo" <harry.lavo@rcn.com> wrote in message
>> news:fezlc.25196$I%1.1681822@attbi_s51...
>> > Was putting a repaired phono headamp back in my system and got off on a
>> > listening kick to Judy Collin's "Judith" album from 1975 (Electra vinyl)
>> and
>> > 1992 (?) (Electra HDCD).
>> >
>> There are more than a fist full of Cat Stevens albums from the same
>period,
>> written, sung and some mastered in part by Yusaf himself that knock the
>> dress off of anything by Judy.
>>
>I've got all of them. We used them as voice and guitar references at The
>Abso!ute Sound (should have heard them on the big Maggie system).
>
>However, for overall pinnacle of song selection, arrangement,
>recording...simply the combined talents of lots of the most gifted at their
>task...at their peak...this is my nominee.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

I, too, have all of them and think the recordings of both artists are generally
well done, creative, and sonically outstanding. Along with Judy Collins' "Send
In the Clowns", I would most favor her performance of "City of New Orleans".
And for Cat Stevens, I particularly enjoy llistening to "Morning Has Broken".





Bruce J. Richman

 

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"Harry Lavo" <harry.lavo@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:s3Elc.18526$IG1.738283@attbi_s04...
> "Norman Schwartz" <nmsz1@att.net> wrote in message
> news:KwAlc.17666$IG1.651359@attbi_s04...
> > "Harry Lavo" <harry.lavo@rcn.com> wrote in message
> > news:fezlc.25196$I%1.1681822@attbi_s51...
> > > Was putting a repaired phono headamp back in my system and got off on
a
> > > listening kick to Judy Collin's "Judith" album from 1975 (Electra
vinyl)
> > and
> > > 1992 (?) (Electra HDCD).
> > >
> > There are more than a fist full of Cat Stevens albums from the same
> period,
> > written, sung and some mastered in part by Yusaf himself that knock the
> > dress off of anything by Judy.
> >
> I've got all of them. We used them as voice and guitar references at The
> Abso!ute Sound (should have heard them on the big Maggie system).
>
Please tell us more about *that* big Maggie system. Anything to do with
Maggies lights my fire (more than anything else on the planet).

> However, for overall pinnacle of song selection, arrangement,
> recording...simply the combined talents of lots of the most gifted at
their
> task...at their peak...this is my nominee.
>

 

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"Harry Lavo" harry.lavo@rcn.com wrote:



>
>"Norman Schwartz" <nmsz1@att.net> wrote in message
>news:KwAlc.17666$IG1.651359@attbi_s04...
>> "Harry Lavo" <harry.lavo@rcn.com> wrote in message
>> news:fezlc.25196$I%1.1681822@attbi_s51...
>> > Was putting a repaired phono headamp back in my system and got off on a
>> > listening kick to Judy Collin's "Judith" album from 1975 (Electra vinyl)
>> and
>> > 1992 (?) (Electra HDCD).
>> >
>> There are more than a fist full of Cat Stevens albums from the same
>period,
>> written, sung and some mastered in part by Yusaf himself that knock the
>> dress off of anything by Judy.
>>
>I've got all of them. We used them as voice and guitar references at The
>Abso!ute Sound (should have heard them on the big Maggie system).
>
>However, for overall pinnacle of song selection, arrangement,
>recording...simply the combined talents of lots of the most gifted at their
>task...at their peak...this is my nominee.

My candidate is K. D. Lang's "Ingenue" which I guess would be classified as the
combination of the talents of a bunch of people of which all except one were
unknown to the general public.

 

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> Was putting a repaired phono headamp back in my system and got off on a
> listening kick to Judy Collin's "Judith" album from 1975 (Electra vinyl) and
> 1992 (?) (Electra HDCD).
>

Ah, yes, 1975, a great year for popular music. Two of the greatest
genres ever created, folk-rock and progressive rock were both at a
magnificent zenith both culturally and musically. On the prog side of
things, Emerson, Lake, and Palmer released their mammoth three-record
live set documenting the previous year's tour, Yes were on tour
following the 1974 release of "Relayer," one of the greatest progressive
rock masterpieces, Rush released their pioneering prog-metal album
"Caress of Steel."
On the folky side, Jackson Browne's albums just kept getting better, the
even more radio-friendly Eagles released their canonical masterwork
"Hotel California," Crosby, Stills and Nash were still going strong with
or without Neil Young, and Bruce Springsteen was getting his future
career loaded for bear with the release of "The Wild, the Innocent, and
the E Street Shuffle," a sprawling mess of a recording that proved that
yes, indeed, rock music could at once be folky, progressive, and bluesey
all on the same album.
And let's not forget Led Zeppelin, who showed the same thing in a
different way on their albums of the period.

Now, those artists and those albums were the "pop" music of their day,
under the definition of pop music as "music which is sufficiently
popular at one time to be culturally defining of the musical tastes of a
large sector of society", or some such academic phraseology.

How Judy Collins gets to be part of the "pop" music of 1975 is not so clear.
Musicologists and music historians of the present day who write about
the music of the seventies and its influence on later musical
developments have not frequently had anything to say about Judy Collins
from what I've read.

That's I suppose because Judy Collins does not seem to have been a
musical pioneer in any era (am I wrong about this?), but was rather more
of a "straight ahead" performer who stuck to well-established musical
formats (some might say "cobwebbed"), hence the cover of a once-popular
broadway number.

"Judith" -- A well-produced album, perhaps. But a "pop" album?

-Sean

 

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On Mon, 03 May 2004 21:56:27 +0000, Harry Lavo wrote:

> Was putting a repaired phono headamp back in my system and got off on a
> listening kick to Judy Collin's "Judith" album from 1975 (Electra vinyl) and
> 1992 (?) (Electra HDCD).
>

Carol King Tapestry.
Linda Ronstadt "For Sentimental Reasons"
Fleetwood Mac Rumours

 

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Sean Fulop <sfulop@uchicago.edu> wrote:
> > Was putting a repaired phono headamp back in my system and got off on a
> > listening kick to Judy Collin's "Judith" album from 1975 (Electra vinyl) and
> > 1992 (?) (Electra HDCD).
> >

> Ah, yes, 1975, a great year for popular music. Two of the greatest
> genres ever created, folk-rock and progressive rock were both at a
> magnificent zenith both culturally and musically.

Actually, prog rock was already past its peak, by a year or two.

On the prog side of
> things, Emerson, Lake, and Palmer released their mammoth three-record
> live set documenting the previous year's tour,

No, that was recorded in early '74 and released later that year, from
a tour for an album released in '73.

> Yes were on tour
> following the 1974 release of "Relayer," one of the greatest progressive
> rock masterpieces,

But also their last...and again, the material was written in mid-1974.

> Rush released their pioneering prog-metal album
> "Caress of Steel."

Rush seemed distinctly second-string back then, as prog bands went,
and has remained so, AFAIC.

--

-S.

"They've got God on their side. All we've got is science and reason."
-- Dawn Hulsey, Talent Director

 

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"Sean Fulop" <sfulop@uchicago.edu> wrote in message
news:c795pq01gin@news2.newsguy.com...
> > Was putting a repaired phono headamp back in my system and got off on a
> > listening kick to Judy Collin's "Judith" album from 1975 (Electra vinyl)
and
> > 1992 (?) (Electra HDCD).
> >
>
> Ah, yes, 1975, a great year for popular music. Two of the greatest
> genres ever created, folk-rock and progressive rock were both at a
> magnificent zenith both culturally and musically. On the prog side of
> things, Emerson, Lake, and Palmer released their mammoth three-record
> live set documenting the previous year's tour, Yes were on tour
> following the 1974 release of "Relayer," one of the greatest progressive
> rock masterpieces, Rush released their pioneering prog-metal album
> "Caress of Steel."
> On the folky side, Jackson Browne's albums just kept getting better, the
> even more radio-friendly Eagles released their canonical masterwork
> "Hotel California," Crosby, Stills and Nash were still going strong with
> or without Neil Young, and Bruce Springsteen was getting his future
> career loaded for bear with the release of "The Wild, the Innocent, and
> the E Street Shuffle," a sprawling mess of a recording that proved that
> yes, indeed, rock music could at once be folky, progressive, and bluesey
> all on the same album.
> And let's not forget Led Zeppelin, who showed the same thing in a
> different way on their albums of the period.
>
> Now, those artists and those albums were the "pop" music of their day,
> under the definition of pop music as "music which is sufficiently
> popular at one time to be culturally defining of the musical tastes of a
> large sector of society", or some such academic phraseology.
>
> How Judy Collins gets to be part of the "pop" music of 1975 is not so
clear.
> Musicologists and music historians of the present day who write about
> the music of the seventies and its influence on later musical
> developments have not frequently had anything to say about Judy Collins
> from what I've read.
>
> That's I suppose because Judy Collins does not seem to have been a
> musical pioneer in any era (am I wrong about this?), but was rather more
> of a "straight ahead" performer who stuck to well-established musical
> formats (some might say "cobwebbed"), hence the cover of a once-popular
> broadway number.
>
> "Judith" -- A well-produced album, perhaps. But a "pop" album?
>
> -Sean

"Send in the Clowns" was well up in the top ten if not at the top -- from
this album -- in the pop category and all over the airways. If that doesn't
make it "pop" I don't know what does. Not to mention that she won the "best
pop female" (IIRC) Grammy for it.

 

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"Norman Schwartz" <nmsz1@att.net> wrote in message
news:c795i401gau@news2.newsguy.com...
> "Harry Lavo" <harry.lavo@rcn.com> wrote in message
> news:s3Elc.18526$IG1.738283@attbi_s04...
> > "Norman Schwartz" <nmsz1@att.net> wrote in message
> > news:KwAlc.17666$IG1.651359@attbi_s04...
> > > "Harry Lavo" <harry.lavo@rcn.com> wrote in message
> > > news:fezlc.25196$I%1.1681822@attbi_s51...
> > > > Was putting a repaired phono headamp back in my system and got off
on
> a
> > > > listening kick to Judy Collin's "Judith" album from 1975 (Electra
> vinyl)
> > > and
> > > > 1992 (?) (Electra HDCD).
> > > >
> > > There are more than a fist full of Cat Stevens albums from the same
> > period,
> > > written, sung and some mastered in part by Yusaf himself that knock
the
> > > dress off of anything by Judy.
> > >
> > I've got all of them. We used them as voice and guitar references at
The
> > Abso!ute Sound (should have heard them on the big Maggie system).
> >
> Please tell us more about *that* big Maggie system. Anything to do with
> Maggies lights my fire (more than anything else on the planet).
>
> > However, for overall pinnacle of song selection, arrangement,
> > recording...simply the combined talents of lots of the most gifted at
> their
> > task...at their peak...this is my nominee.
> >

This was the Tympani IIIa system, which became The Abso!ute Sound's first
reference system. The following is a succinct description from Vol 2,
Number 5, page 19-20:

"It is a very large speaker system that consists of, all told, 8 six-foot
high panels (less than one-inch thick). Each of the panels is approximately
16-inches wide. two panels (tweeters); two panels (midrange(; four panels
(low bass). It requires no imagination whatsoever to perceive that a set-up
like this will absolute(sic) dominate, if not engulf, the ordinary listening
room."

"The most effective arrangement: using the tweeter-mid/range panels up
front, with the four bass panels placed several feet back of the two
out-rigger panels, in back and dead center. To prevent excessive bass
cancellation, I (Harry Pearson - HL) angled the outside bass panels (on
either side) slightly back.

This system was eventually replaced by the Infinity Servo Static 1a as the
reference system.

The big Maggie system was spectacular on orchestral music, since as set up
in the main listening room it was flat into the mid-30's and extended its
airy treble high enough to leave no room for complaint. But to me, it was
the midrange that was so striking (Harry Pearson disagreed with me on the
significance of this, but I still remember the impression it left on me. We
used Cat Steven's Tea for the Tillerman as a key reference for voice and
guitar, and they mid-range dynamics from this record exceeded anything I had
heard since my dad's JBL corner horn of the early '50's. Response was
smooth, and transparent. The large panels seemed to prevent "he is here"
imaging, but except for that fault, it was an exceptional sounding speaker.
And keep in mind this was within two years of the company's founding (again,
IIRC). This was in 1974 when Magnapan was still distributed by Audio
Research.

Just for the record, the remainder of the system: an ADC XLMII in a Vestigal
Arm, on a Technics SP-10 (later replaced by Linn Sondek with Black Widow
Arm), Audio Research SP-3a Preamp and Dual 78 Power Amps (main) plus
Ampzilla (bass panels), ARC 1a active crossover, Revox A700 tape deck.

 

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Sean Fulop wrote:

>> Was putting a repaired phono headamp back in my system and got off on a
>> listening kick to Judy Collin's "Judith" album from 1975 (Electra vinyl)
>and
>> 1992 (?) (Electra HDCD).
>>
>
>Ah, yes, 1975, a great year for popular music. Two of the greatest
>genres ever created, folk-rock and progressive rock were both at a
>magnificent zenith both culturally and musically. On the prog side of
>things, Emerson, Lake, and Palmer released their mammoth three-record
>live set documenting the previous year's tour, Yes were on tour
>following the 1974 release of "Relayer," one of the greatest progressive
>rock masterpieces, Rush released their pioneering prog-metal album
>"Caress of Steel."
>On the folky side, Jackson Browne's albums just kept getting better, the
>even more radio-friendly Eagles released their canonical masterwork
>"Hotel California," Crosby, Stills and Nash were still going strong with
>or without Neil Young, and Bruce Springsteen was getting his future
>career loaded for bear with the release of "The Wild, the Innocent, and
>the E Street Shuffle," a sprawling mess of a recording that proved that
>yes, indeed, rock music could at once be folky, progressive, and bluesey
>all on the same album.
>And let's not forget Led Zeppelin, who showed the same thing in a
>different way on their albums of the period.
>
>Now, those artists and those albums were the "pop" music of their day,
>under the definition of pop music as "music which is sufficiently
>popular at one time to be culturally defining of the musical tastes of a
>large sector of society", or some such academic phraseology.
>
>How Judy Collins gets to be part of the "pop" music of 1975 is not so clear.
>Musicologists and music historians of the present day who write about
>the music of the seventies and its influence on later musical
>developments have not frequently had anything to say about Judy Collins
>from what I've read.
>
>That's I suppose because Judy Collins does not seem to have been a
>musical pioneer in any era (am I wrong about this?), but was rather more
>of a "straight ahead" performer who stuck to well-established musical
>formats (some might say "cobwebbed"), hence the cover of a once-popular
>broadway number.
>
>"Judith" -- A well-produced album, perhaps. But a "pop" album?
>
>-Sean
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Judy Collins' initial recordings would probably best be classified as folk
music recordings, strictly speaking. In fact, if one were to go in to a
contemporary used LP store today, this is the section in which her albums would
most likely be found. If one looks at eBay, her albums are listed under both
Rock and Folk categories.

As one who collects acoustic folk music, I've always considered Judy Collins to
be primarily a folk singer that hss successfully "crossed over" into the more
general popular realm and expanded her repertoire, obviously, beyond folk music
to include interpretations of more mainstream popular music.

Bruce J. Richman

 

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> Rush seemed distinctly second-string back then, as prog bands went,
> and has remained so, AFAIC.

Well, they were very popular. I don't think their musical contributions
to prog directly are as great as those of Yes, but they seem to have
literally invented prog-metal, the idea of fusing progressive structures
with real hard rock/heavy metal stylizations.

These days, the main prog web sites seem to put Rush and Yes on equal
footing. Recently, with Rush releasing a live DVD and Yes releasing
their Yesspeak and Ultimate Yes, one of the major prog sites posted an
article saying something like "whether you like them or not, Rush and
Yes are pretty much alone at the top of progressive rock, and when they
are both releasing new products at the same time it is still big news in
the prog world."

So the notion that Rush plays second string to Yes in prog is not
universally recognized.

-Sean

 

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> "Send in the Clowns" was well up in the top ten if not at the top -- from
> this album -- in the pop category and all over the airways. If that doesn't
> make it "pop" I don't know what does.

Agreed, I stand corrected on this. "Judith" gets to be known
legitimately as a pop album.

Not to mention that she won the "best
> pop female" (IIRC) Grammy for it.

This, however, is not a meaningful indication of cultural realities.
Unfortunately the Grammys and all other such organization-issued awards
reflect chiefly what the organization wishes to be so, rather than what
is actually so. As a result, the entire progressive rock genre was
never once mentioned at the Grammys during its cultural heyday of the
1970s, because this kind of music was not, um, highly regarded by those
in control at the time. But from the standpoint of musical
significance, cultural significance, and sheer popularity, that's like
refusing to invite Tiger Woods to the Master's invitational. They
didn't make the movie "Spinal Tap" for nothing, it was a satire of
things that were really culturally important at one time, and about how
the musical greatness of the style diminished going into the eighties
and the whole genre (or rather, its descendants) collapsed under the
weight of its pretensions. But judging by the nominees at the Grammy
awards, the genre never existed.


-Sean

 

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"Bruce J. Richman" <bjrichman@aol.com> wrote in message
news:Yt8mc.29053$_41.2108632@attbi_s02...
> Sean Fulop wrote:
>
> >> Was putting a repaired phono headamp back in my system and got off on a
> >> listening kick to Judy Collin's "Judith" album from 1975 (Electra
vinyl)
> >and
> >> 1992 (?) (Electra HDCD).
> >>
> >
> >Ah, yes, 1975, a great year for popular music. Two of the greatest
> >genres ever created, folk-rock and progressive rock were both at a
> >magnificent zenith both culturally and musically. On the prog side of
> >things, Emerson, Lake, and Palmer released their mammoth three-record
> >live set documenting the previous year's tour, Yes were on tour
> >following the 1974 release of "Relayer," one of the greatest progressive
> >rock masterpieces, Rush released their pioneering prog-metal album
> >"Caress of Steel."
> >On the folky side, Jackson Browne's albums just kept getting better, the
> >even more radio-friendly Eagles released their canonical masterwork
> >"Hotel California," Crosby, Stills and Nash were still going strong with
> >or without Neil Young, and Bruce Springsteen was getting his future
> >career loaded for bear with the release of "The Wild, the Innocent, and
> >the E Street Shuffle," a sprawling mess of a recording that proved that
> >yes, indeed, rock music could at once be folky, progressive, and bluesey
> >all on the same album.
> >And let's not forget Led Zeppelin, who showed the same thing in a
> >different way on their albums of the period.
> >
> >Now, those artists and those albums were the "pop" music of their day,
> >under the definition of pop music as "music which is sufficiently
> >popular at one time to be culturally defining of the musical tastes of a
> >large sector of society", or some such academic phraseology.
> >
> >How Judy Collins gets to be part of the "pop" music of 1975 is not so
clear.
> >Musicologists and music historians of the present day who write about
> >the music of the seventies and its influence on later musical
> >developments have not frequently had anything to say about Judy Collins
> >from what I've read.
> >
> >That's I suppose because Judy Collins does not seem to have been a
> >musical pioneer in any era (am I wrong about this?), but was rather more
> >of a "straight ahead" performer who stuck to well-established musical
> >formats (some might say "cobwebbed"), hence the cover of a once-popular
> >broadway number.
> >
> >"Judith" -- A well-produced album, perhaps. But a "pop" album?
> >
> >-Sean

> Judy Collins' initial recordings would probably best be classified as folk
> music recordings, strictly speaking. In fact, if one were to go in to a
> contemporary used LP store today, this is the section in which her albums
would
> most likely be found. If one looks at eBay, her albums are listed under
both
> Rock and Folk categories.
>
> As one who collects acoustic folk music, I've always considered Judy
Collins to
> be primarily a folk singer that hss successfully "crossed over" into the
more
> general popular realm and expanded her repertoire, obviously, beyond folk
music
> to include interpretations of more mainstream popular music.
>
> Bruce J. Richman
>

I classify her the same. With this album and "Fires of Eden" on Columbia
she became almost impossible to categorize or pigeonhole.

I wouldn't have 'nominated' this album on her singing alone, but the
eclectic and excellent song selection, wonderful arranging, superb
reproduction using analog at its peak...all add up to excellence.

 

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"Sean Fulop" <sfulop@uchicago.edu> wrote in message
news:K4cmc.29012$IG1.1269244@attbi_s04...
> > Rush seemed distinctly second-string back then, as prog bands went,
> > and has remained so, AFAIC.
>
> Well, they were very popular. I don't think their musical contributions
> to prog directly are as great as those of Yes, but they seem to have
> literally invented prog-metal, the idea of fusing progressive structures
> with real hard rock/heavy metal stylizations.
>
> These days, the main prog web sites seem to put Rush and Yes on equal
> footing. Recently, with Rush releasing a live DVD and Yes releasing
> their Yesspeak and Ultimate Yes, one of the major prog sites posted an
> article saying something like "whether you like them or not, Rush and
> Yes are pretty much alone at the top of progressive rock, and when they
> are both releasing new products at the same time it is still big news in
> the prog world."
>
> So the notion that Rush plays second string to Yes in prog is not
> universally recognized.

Musically speaking, I find it difficult to believe that anyone would put the
contributions of Yes and Rush on equal footing. For musicianship and
musical content, Yes is perhaps the single most influential band of the last
30 years.

 

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"Harry Lavo" <harry.lavo@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:c7alht02tov@news4.newsguy.com...

>
> This was the Tympani IIIa system, which became The Abso!ute Sound's first
> reference system. The following is a succinct description from Vol 2,
> Number 5, page 19-20:
>
> "It is a very large speaker system that consists of, all told, 8 six-foot
> high panels (less than one-inch thick). Each of the panels is
approximately
> 16-inches wide. two panels (tweeters); two panels (midrange(; four panels
> (low bass). It requires no imagination whatsoever to perceive that a
set-up
> like this will absolute(sic) dominate, if not engulf, the ordinary
listening
> room."
>
> "The most effective arrangement: using the tweeter-mid/range panels up
> front, with the four bass panels placed several feet back of the two
> out-rigger panels, in back and dead center. To prevent excessive bass
> cancellation, I (Harry Pearson - HL) angled the outside bass panels (on
> either side) slightly back.
>
> This system was eventually replaced by the Infinity Servo Static 1a as the
> reference system.
>
> The big Maggie system was spectacular on orchestral music, since as set up
> in the main listening room it was flat into the mid-30's and extended its
> airy treble high enough to leave no room for complaint. But to me, it was
> the midrange that was so striking (Harry Pearson disagreed with me on the
> significance of this, but I still remember the impression it left on me.
We
> used Cat Steven's Tea for the Tillerman as a key reference for voice and
> guitar, and they mid-range dynamics from this record exceeded anything I
had
> heard since my dad's JBL corner horn of the early '50's. Response was
> smooth, and transparent. The large panels seemed to prevent "he is here"
> imaging, but except for that fault, it was an exceptional sounding
speaker.
> And keep in mind this was within two years of the company's founding
(again,
> IIRC). This was in 1974 when Magnapan was still distributed by Audio
> Research.
>
> Just for the record, the remainder of the system: an ADC XLMII in a
Vestigal
> Arm, on a Technics SP-10 (later replaced by Linn Sondek with Black Widow
> Arm), Audio Research SP-3a Preamp and Dual 78 Power Amps (main) plus
> Ampzilla (bass panels), ARC 1a active crossover, Revox A700 tape deck.

Thanks Harry. I was familiar with the 8-ohm Maggie IIIa from frequent visits
to a friend who eventually had them in different rooms after having moved. I
myself owned the 4 ohm Magneplanar IIIB for a short while, but that's an
entirely different (and unhappy) story. The Cat hisself kinda mastered one
of his albums using Maggies in a well known dealer's showroom and is storied
to have worked on his project into the early hours in the morning. One thing
I cannot agree with, however, is that the panels prevent "he is here"
imaging. If anything they put you front row center and far too close, as
sitting in the front row at your local movieplex. I remember Ralph Hodges
have written very similar, if not the same, words in Stereo Review when
reviewing Maggies (model ?). Anyway IMHO whether it be The Tillerman, Teaser
and the Firecat, Izitso, Catch Bull at Four, Numbers, or Mona Bone Jakon,
nothing even comes close (pun intended) to the front-row, lightning fast
vocal and instrumental transients as do the Cat albums. The CD, SS and the
newer Maggies magnify the situation even more. Of course sound of this
variety isn't everyone's cup of "Tea" .

 

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Sean Fulop <sfulop@uchicago.edu> wrote:
> > Rush seemed distinctly second-string back then, as prog bands went,
> > and has remained so, AFAIC.

> Well, they were very popular.

So was Meatloaf.

> I don't think their musical contributions
> to prog directly are as great as those of Yes, but they seem to have
> literally invented prog-metal, the idea of fusing progressive structures
> with real hard rock/heavy metal stylizations.

Is anything in Rush really *heavier* than the opening of
King Crimson's '21st Century Schizoid Man'?

> These days, the main prog web sites seem to put Rush and Yes on equal
> footing. Recently, with Rush releasing a live DVD and Yes releasing
> their Yesspeak and Ultimate Yes, one of the major prog sites posted an
> article saying something like "whether you like them or not, Rush and
> Yes are pretty much alone at the top of progressive rock, and when they
> are both releasing new products at the same time it is still big news in
> the prog world."

Rush is certainly more popular than Yes these days, I agree.
But that's not what I meant by 'string'. Crimson were always a first-string
prog band, even though they have never been massively popular.


> So the notion that Rush plays second string to Yes in prog is not
> universally recognized.

It's an entirely subjective 'notion', as it's based entirely on
my opinion of their *work*, not their commercial success.



--

-S.

"They've got God on their side. All we've got is science and reason."
-- Dawn Hulsey, Talent Director

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

From: "Norman Schwartz" nmsz1@att.net
>Date: 5/5/2004 3:57 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <vjemc.38594$I%1.2474129@attbi_s51>
>
>"Harry Lavo" <harry.lavo@rcn.com> wrote in message
>news:c7alht02tov@news4.newsguy.com...
>
>>
>> This was the Tympani IIIa system, which became The Abso!ute Sound's first
>> reference system. The following is a succinct description from Vol 2,
>> Number 5, page 19-20:
>>
>> "It is a very large speaker system that consists of, all told, 8 six-foot
>> high panels (less than one-inch thick). Each of the panels is
>approximately
>> 16-inches wide. two panels (tweeters); two panels (midrange(; four panels
>> (low bass). It requires no imagination whatsoever to perceive that a
>set-up
>> like this will absolute(sic) dominate, if not engulf, the ordinary
>listening
>> room."
>>
>> "The most effective arrangement: using the tweeter-mid/range panels up
>> front, with the four bass panels placed several feet back of the two
>> out-rigger panels, in back and dead center. To prevent excessive bass
>> cancellation, I (Harry Pearson - HL) angled the outside bass panels (on
>> either side) slightly back.
>>
>> This system was eventually replaced by the Infinity Servo Static 1a as the
>> reference system.
>>
>> The big Maggie system was spectacular on orchestral music, since as set up
>> in the main listening room it was flat into the mid-30's and extended its
>> airy treble high enough to leave no room for complaint. But to me, it was
>> the midrange that was so striking (Harry Pearson disagreed with me on the
>> significance of this, but I still remember the impression it left on me.
>We
>> used Cat Steven's Tea for the Tillerman as a key reference for voice and
>> guitar, and they mid-range dynamics from this record exceeded anything I
>had
>> heard since my dad's JBL corner horn of the early '50's. Response was
>> smooth, and transparent. The large panels seemed to prevent "he is here"
>> imaging, but except for that fault, it was an exceptional sounding
>speaker.
>> And keep in mind this was within two years of the company's founding
>(again,
>> IIRC). This was in 1974 when Magnapan was still distributed by Audio
>> Research.
>>
>> Just for the record, the remainder of the system: an ADC XLMII in a
>Vestigal
>> Arm, on a Technics SP-10 (later replaced by Linn Sondek with Black Widow
>> Arm), Audio Research SP-3a Preamp and Dual 78 Power Amps (main) plus
>> Ampzilla (bass panels), ARC 1a active crossover, Revox A700 tape deck.
>
>Thanks Harry. I was familiar with the 8-ohm Maggie IIIa from frequent visits
>to a friend who eventually had them in different rooms after having moved. I
>myself owned the 4 ohm Magneplanar IIIB for a short while, but that's an
>entirely different (and unhappy) story. The Cat hisself kinda mastered one
>of his albums using Maggies in a well known dealer's showroom and is storied
>to have worked on his project into the early hours in the morning. One thing
>I cannot agree with, however, is that the panels prevent "he is here"
>imaging. If anything they put you front row center and far too close, as
>sitting in the front row at your local movieplex. I remember Ralph Hodges
>have written very similar, if not the same, words in Stereo Review when
>reviewing Maggies (model ?). Anyway IMHO whether it be The Tillerman, Teaser
>and the Firecat, Izitso, Catch Bull at Four, Numbers, or Mona Bone Jakon,
>nothing even comes close (pun intended) to the front-row, lightning fast
>vocal and instrumental transients as do the Cat albums. The CD, SS and the
>newer Maggies magnify the situation even more. Of course sound of this
>variety isn't everyone's cup of "Tea" .
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

If you get a chance listen to an original US issue of Donovan's "A Gift from a
Flower to a Garden."

 

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>From: Bruce Abrams brucea@optonline.net
>Date: 5/5/2004 3:55 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <c7brd401gkt@news2.newsguy.com>
>
>"Sean Fulop" <sfulop@uchicago.edu> wrote in message
>news:K4cmc.29012$IG1.1269244@attbi_s04...
>> > Rush seemed distinctly second-string back then, as prog bands went,
>> > and has remained so, AFAIC.
>>
>> Well, they were very popular. I don't think their musical contributions
>> to prog directly are as great as those of Yes, but they seem to have
>> literally invented prog-metal, the idea of fusing progressive structures
>> with real hard rock/heavy metal stylizations.
>>
>> These days, the main prog web sites seem to put Rush and Yes on equal
>> footing. Recently, with Rush releasing a live DVD and Yes releasing
>> their Yesspeak and Ultimate Yes, one of the major prog sites posted an
>> article saying something like "whether you like them or not, Rush and
>> Yes are pretty much alone at the top of progressive rock, and when they
>> are both releasing new products at the same time it is still big news in
>> the prog world."
>>
>> So the notion that Rush plays second string to Yes in prog is not
>> universally recognized.
>
>Musically speaking, I find it difficult to believe that anyone would put the
>contributions of Yes and Rush on equal footing. For musicianship and
>musical content, Yes is perhaps the single most influential band of the last
>30 years.
>
>
>
>
>
>

Yes is my all time favorite band and I think arguably the most talented band to
ever exist in the rock genre. However I don't think they were the most
influencial band of the last 30 years. I think I would have to say bands like
Nirvana and U2 had a much greater influence on other artists and on the public.
It baffles me that Yes has not even been considered for the Rock and Roll hall
of fame. And for those who still have a chance i highly recomend seeing them on
their current tour. It's one of their best I have ever seen in 26 years. P.S.
That would just about all of them in the past 26 years.

 

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"Harry Lavo" <harry.lavo@rcn.com> wrote in message news:<fezlc.25196$I%1.1681822@attbi_s51>...

The obvious answer: Thriller, Michael Jackson.

 

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s888wheel@aol.com (S888Wheel) wrote in message news:<c7bvec01kb0@news2.newsguy.com>...

> Yes is my all time favorite band and I think arguably the most talented band to
> ever exist in the rock genre.

Are you familiar with the Italian prog groups? Banco del Mutuo
Soccorso and Premiata Forneria Marconi easily better anything that Yes
ever did. Banco is still recording. Their singer, Franceso diGiacomo
(aka 'Mr Chubbs'), is superb, with a voice that Luciano Pavarotti
would kill for. Their keyboardists, Vittorio Nocenzi and Gianni
Nocenzi, and various guitarists and percussionists over the years have
produced stunning, original work. There were numerous other Italian
prog groups that appeared in the early 70's, including Balletto di
Bronzo, that recorded one or two gems and then disappeared.

http://www.bancodelmutuosoccorso.it/

http://www.pfmpfm.it/

 

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Bruce Abrams <brucea@optonline.net> wrote:
> "Sean Fulop" <sfulop@uchicago.edu> wrote in message
> news:K4cmc.29012$IG1.1269244@attbi_s04...
> > > Rush seemed distinctly second-string back then, as prog bands went,
> > > and has remained so, AFAIC.
> >
> > Well, they were very popular. I don't think their musical contributions
> > to prog directly are as great as those of Yes, but they seem to have
> > literally invented prog-metal, the idea of fusing progressive structures
> > with real hard rock/heavy metal stylizations.
> >
> > These days, the main prog web sites seem to put Rush and Yes on equal
> > footing. Recently, with Rush releasing a live DVD and Yes releasing
> > their Yesspeak and Ultimate Yes, one of the major prog sites posted an
> > article saying something like "whether you like them or not, Rush and
> > Yes are pretty much alone at the top of progressive rock, and when they
> > are both releasing new products at the same time it is still big news in
> > the prog world."
> >
> > So the notion that Rush plays second string to Yes in prog is not
> > universally recognized.

> Musically speaking, I find it difficult to believe that anyone would put the
> contributions of Yes and Rush on equal footing. For musicianship and
> musical content, Yes is perhaps the single most influential band of the last
> 30 years.

I like Yes but I would hardly go *that* far. Led Zeppelin, for one, has
been more influential, as have Black Sabbath, to name two.

--

-S.

"They've got God on their side. All we've got is science and reason."
-- Dawn Hulsey, Talent Director