Theories, Thoughts, and known facts: DDR4, GDDR6+, Mantle/DX12 (and unified memory)

[TheGreatWarMage]

A general collection of anything known or theorized for the future of Desktops mostly. This could be long winded, and result in plenty of conjecture, and some unfortunate trolling, so please support any ideas or information with some form of evidence.

Why am I making this topic?
I am looking towards the future, and wanting to, like everyone else, make a semi future proof rig. Though with that, comes some need of what is currently being tossed around in the www. My future build should be in my sig so if anyone wants to pick at it for these thoughts, that is fine.

DDR4: The starting mhz for it is 2133. I have seen it will be labeled as PC4-17066. So far, supposedly 8gb ones have already shown up, which seems low to me given they are starting to go with 16gb for workstations or servers.

Kingston even showed 12-16gb modules (192gb total), making me wonder why start at 8? Another odd thing that I saw was on the Motherboard, their were 4 empty spaces for memory. Is 192 or 96 going to be a new max?

I don't see why it wouldn't be that long for desktops to be using 16gb or 32gb, most certainly at the start 16gb one would think. Though, 8gb seems to be the standard showing/statement.

DDR4 on shelves

192gb kingston
kingston vid


A stretch translation using microsoft for the site below. DDR5 for circa 2021. Everything else in that site is a beyond some of my understanding. The currently sold PC4-17066 is unknown if for servers or desktops from what I can see. If anyone can pick through it to identify if the information is correct (at least on the ddr3 stuff for authenticity of any other info) please. The memory module info I have seen displayed in other places as well, so it seems legit.

Translated Site



GDDR6: Supposedly going to be coming out sometime this year. Speculation that it will be in the 800 series GPU from nvidia. Size? Well, my understanding of GDDR is limited, and what confuses me most is the jump from 4 to 5 that happened so quickly. I get that it is based on the memory out in the market, so DDR4 is what it will be based on. Size though confuses me greatly. Memory has been going up to 8gbs for...I would like to say 2 years+, yet single core cpus have only recently caught up to this number, most high end sticking to 6gbs, and the med end at 2gb and low at 1gb.

I can barely remember what ddr3 started at, but after a quick search, I found a 1gb around. So, I would like to believe that the standard will be moving to 4gbs for any gpu since 8gb will be the starter for ddr4. With higher end being around 16gbs would be something to imagine. Anyone that has a strong knowledge of GDDR from DDR please enlighten some.

Anyone know how long it took GDDR4 to come out? Might give a time table of expectation for when GDDR6 will come from DDR4.


Virtual Unified Memory vs HSA/hUMA I got nothing on this one. The grasp of utilizing system memory to increase effectiveness of GPU and APU, to increase abilities of CPU calculations/control is all I am getting. Basically a broken down form of Mantle/DX12 to me. HSA seems like a flop so far as very few, in the desktop world, are utilizing it. hUMA..what can be said. I half expected that GPUs would utilize massive amounts of system memory to increase capabilities to amazing end results. Though if APU is a similar means, I expected more utilization, like 20-25% of system ram or more. Perhaps even resulting in larger memory maxes like LGA2011.

Seems like XBone and PS4 are test subjects for which is best from a AMD standpoint. With Mantle being the similar equivalent of how DX12 will affect these two system types.

Pascal and NVlink, or PCIe4 And than their is Pascal and NVlink. NVlink is something that is to replace PCIe, from what I am gathering, and pascal is a titan Z on monster steroids, perhaps. Or Pascal is a replacement for Ram and GPU? Or it is a server motherboard "insert card" (PCIe like) for all intensive purposes. A motherboard for a motherboard to say. Not sure what to think for this. Pascal was not detailed for what it had equipped, except it was just charted, very generally. Unknown of what it used for, memory or a processor core. Though it uses Virtual Memory, and from what seems to be said, to similar end of what I was hoping for hUMA.

I have very little knowledge of PCIe4, thunderbolt and PCIe OCuLink. All I can venture is it is similar yet slower to NVlink perhaps?

Pascal and NVlink
More info on Pascal and NVlink
Toms PCIe 4 link


Mantle and DX12: If you watch the video below, mantle has a lot of amazing features that it can deliver. Whether DX12 will be similar to these promises, seems most likely. AMD might be using Mantle to bolster FX for Next Gen, though the man stated by visual approximation a FX 8350 was equal or better than a 4770k, a 4core vs 8 core. Though, it was also stated that the process was being bottlenecked by a single R9 290, with an FX 8350 under-clocked to 2ghz. So in the end, they probably looked the same, because the GPU was the determining factor. It would have been fantastic if he could have shown what multiple GPUs could do with the same processors, though for obvious reasons it might be more prudent not to.

Though it would have to leave the thought that this would mean that the Haswell-E should do an even greater job with Mantle or DX12, if a FX8350 was dumbed down by half and bottlenecked while delivering fantastic results, what would intels best deliver? Is it worth getting the best intel has to offer, or a half or less priced FX chip? If it will be several years(I would guess 3-5 years based on visuals) before most programs (Games) can even break passed an FX 8350, perhaps buying 3-4 gpus, high mid to ultra great gpus of current, is the better option.

Mantle Demo with statment of FX 8350 > I7 4770k
25:35 is when visual demo "starts" or 28:25 for action
39:45 is where AMD FX is compared Intel

DX12 stuff


Though, chances are they will not be coming out with a refresh of AM3+, which is a tragedy if these numbers are near accurate. An LGA2011 allows 4 gpus over AM3+ 3, and PCIe 3.0 to boot, which might be utilized greatly. And of course DDR4. It would be glorious if AMD released something along the lines that they are going to upgrade their motherboards for both of these updates, All that has been hinted to is a possible FX processor coming, which might show AMD is still keeping their high end line alive. Hopefully it isn't the portable FX chip..

FX Unknown

Note: I thought I heard rumors that mantle can be used in other graphic based operation programs, like video editing. But I can't locate such.

Note 2: Unified Memory. I am unable to find the video that stats that some form of near release gpu will allow it to utilize system memory to increase work load. I remember seeing a video about zooming in on a planet with increased details, or some glider/air plane visualization perhaps. Can't remember, though if anyone knows, please post url.

 

[SpectreUnleashed]

These all make me hesitate building a new PC today. I am waiting for 20nm GPU's and 5th generation 6/8 core Intels. Intel said that 5th generation will not be more expensive today, even though with more L3 Cache and 2 more cores. For example, i7-4770K is 340 USD today. It has 4 cores. i7-5770K is told to be 340 USD as well, while 4770K is going cheaper, and it will feature 2 morecores and 3 MB more L3 cahce. This is good news.

Simply, ascend the first number of the processo from 4 to 5 , throw in 3MB cache and 2 cores and pay the same price.

Also, DDR4 is coming so, even though Z97 MOBO's will feature 5th gen support, they will not support DDR4; it is logical to wait for Z99, X99 Chipsets.

More than GDDR6, I am waiting for 20nm (14 according to rumors) GPU's fro drastically increased clock speed and relatively less heating. A usual GPU is expected to reach 1500 MHz without overclocking. However, simple maths does not apply on MHz comparisons based on nm. Yet, it is clear they will get faster. Thus, there will be a massive increase in memory bandwith (Gb/s) without any other upgrades. Yet, Memory speed will not be effected of the ore clock and GDDR6 will bring more multipliers for memory clock, supposedly.

 

[Mousemonkey]

I am waiting for 20nm GPU's and 5th generation 6/8 core Intels.

You and me both...

 

[TheGreatWarMage]

Where did you see the info about next gen 1150's having 2 more cores and +3mb cache? Or are you talking about 2011's?

 

[SpectreUnleashed]

Where did you see the info about next gen 1150's having 2 more cores and +3mb cache? Or are you talking about 2011's?

Yeah 4770K was an example actually, I should have stated that Intel told it about 2011. Sorry guys. However, I am nearly sure that they will release 6 cores for 1150 to. They have to. Otherwise, they will force people to buy AMD. No usual gamer has 980 USD to give to a CPU. I can build a gaming PC for that price.

 

[TheGreatWarMage]

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/intel-skylake-broadwell-100-series,27244.html

I hate to be the negative voice, but going to anyways. I don't believe they will cast a 6 core for 1150. As it is, the 4770k is just about the same price as the lowest end 2011. Give you, the boards sure aren't. But if you wanted a high end cpu core, that is what 2011 is for.

Given the above info, the next gen chips will go into 1150, and be 14nm, so they will run cooler, and maybe higher oc, based on what I hear for memory and GPUs. We all knew they were going to release 2 more sets of chips for the new 97 series, and one was the refresh. It seems this is going to be the 2nd set. Does that mean this will be it, hopefully not. Though skylake is another set that is coming out, and that is meant for mobile, and I guess mobile includes the 1150s??? I wouldn't be surprised if at the very end, they do give you special edition 6 core 1150, though, it won't be cheap by any means most certainly.

What sucks is it sounds like they could continue the line, and dish out some 100 series processors for 1150. But they aren't going to! If someone can explain why this is, please do. Always wondered why they changed processor sockets so easily, when they could toss a biscuit for us sometime. I understand with a size change they should change something, but if they can dish it out like they will for the next set of processors, it leaves me to think that it isn't a huge deal. Especially this early of a new release of chipsets.

Sad to see that that article doesn't say anything about the LGA 2011 99 series. Though it has been theorized that most of the beginning chips for Skylake won't compare to the 2011, and will be equal to high end 1150, so for the first year it won't be a monstrous deal. I would expect that the 99 series coming out will have some of the showings of these 100 series (probably why they are having 6/8 cores).

Though now I am becoming more reluctant to want to venture into 2011. Will they only come out with the one season of chips and end it flat out? From the 3.5ghz 8 core processor they are coming out with seems slow, I would expect an upgrade to 4ghz before they go out of style.

http://www.zdnet.com/pre-order-pricing-for-intel-haswell-e-desktop-processors-revealed-7000031651/
http://wccftech.com/intel-haswelle-core-i7-5960x-core-i7-5930k-core-i7-5820k-specifications-unveiled-flagship-8-core-boost-33-ghz/

Core i7-5820K, a six-core chip running at 3.3 GHz base clock, 3.6-3.8 GHz boost clock w/ 15MB of L3 cache, which ShopBLT.com is selling for $425.92. i7-5930K, which also includes six cores at of 3.5 GHz base and around 3.9 – 4.0 GHz boost w/15MB of L3 cache, for $631.54. i7-5960X Extreme Edition will run at 3.0 GHz base and 3.3 GHz boost frequency the i7-5960X will come with a hefty 20MB of L3 cache at $1,107.83.

For some reason, the site that is listed in the first url, preorder lists different speeds. 3.5 for X, 3.7 for the 5930k, and 3.6 for the 5820k. Turbo speeds most likely. Though, I will support a CPU-Z showing, expecting it to be legit. OC of these, will probably be what would be expected for an 2nd coming of 99 series. Though usually these things comes in two (tick tock thingy). And since the 97 series is getting 14nm, maybe 99 is getting it one as well?

 

[SpectreUnleashed]

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/intel-skylake-broadwell-100-series,27244.html

I hate to be the negative voice, but going to anyways. I don't believe they will cast a 6 core for 1150. As it is, the 4770k is just about the same price as the lowest end 2011. Give you, the boards sure aren't. But if you wanted a high end cpu core, that is what 2011 is for.

Given the above info, the next gen chips will go into 1150, and be 14nm, so they will run cooler, and maybe higher oc, based on what I hear for memory and GPUs. We all knew they were going to release 2 more sets of chips for the new 97 series, and one was the refresh. It seems this is going to be the 2nd set. Does that mean this will be it, hopefully not. Though skylake is another set that is coming out, and that is meant for mobile, and I guess mobile includes the 1150s??? I wouldn't be surprised if at the very end, they do give you special edition 6 core 1150, though, it won't be cheap by any means most certainly.

What sucks is it sounds like they could continue the line, and dish out some 100 series processors for 1150. But they aren't going to! If someone can explain why this is, please do. Always wondered why they changed processor sockets so easily, when they could toss a biscuit for us sometime. I understand with a size change they should change something, but if they can dish it out like they will for the next set of processors, it leaves me to think that it isn't a huge deal. Especially this early of a new release of chipsets.

Sad to see that that article doesn't say anything about the LGA 2011 99 series. Though it has been theorized that most of the beginning chips for Skylake won't compare to the 2011, and will be equal to high end 1150, so for the first year it won't be a monstrous deal. I would expect that the 99 series coming out will have some of the showings of these 100 series (probably why they are having 6/8 cores).

Though now I am becoming more reluctant to want to venture into 2011. Will they only come out with the one season of chips and end it flat out? From the 3.5ghz 8 core processor they are coming out with seems slow, I would expect an upgrade to 4ghz before they go out of style.

http://www.zdnet.com/pre-order-pricing-for-intel-haswell-e-desktop-processors-revealed-7000031651/
http://wccftech.com/intel-haswelle-core-i7-5960x-core-i7-5930k-core-i7-5820k-specifications-unveiled-flagship-8-core-boost-33-ghz/

Core i7-5820K, a six-core chip running at 3.3 GHz base clock, 3.6-3.8 GHz boost clock w/ 15MB of L3 cache, which ShopBLT.com is selling for $425.92. i7-5930K, which also includes six cores at of 3.5 GHz base and around 3.9 – 4.0 GHz boost w/15MB of L3 cache, for $631.54. i7-5960X Extreme Edition will run at 3.0 GHz base and 3.3 GHz boost frequency the i7-5960X will come with a hefty 20MB of L3 cache at $1,107.83.

For some reason, the site that is listed in the first url, preorder lists different speeds. 3.5 for X, 3.7 for the 5930k, and 3.6 for the 5820k. Turbo speeds most likely. Though, I will support a CPU-Z showing, expecting it to be legit. OC of these, will probably be what would be expected for an 2nd coming of 99 series. Though usually these things comes in two (tick tock thingy). And since the 97 series is getting 14nm, maybe 99 is getting it one as well?

I am planning to go with I7-4930K when they officially release the 5th gen. It is 500~ USD right now, so I expect it to go down at least 100~ USD with the all new 5th gen. Only drawback will be that 4th gen 4930K will not support DDR4 Memory but if I can go withh some 2133 MHz DDR3 RAM's, I may manage to keep up with the DDR4. Also, X99 Chipset will support higher frequencies since they will support DDR4.

Conclusion, (IMO): Since we want 6 cores frm Intel, 4th gen Ivy-E bridges seems to be the best future option for relatively good budgets, (if 6 core 4930K drops to 350-400 USD) and 5th generation 2011 CPU's will remain as todays 4960X and 4930K, 1000 and 500~ USD respectively.

 

[TheGreatWarMage]

So your sticking to the 79s based mb? Understanding is that the 99s can't use DDR3. Though I also see the next gen skylake to use both DDR3 and DDR4, so maybe intel will allow it???????


I am hoping for a price drop in those 79 mb to follow when the 99's come out. But, if it is anything like the new 97's and old 87's, that price drop might not be happening for quite some time after it comes out. The great thing about the 79s is that you can use the DDR3 memory, so prices will be low on that end. Anything less than 8gbs and it wouldn't be worth having the 2011's. So with a 8gb module, DDR4 comes at $137, and DDR3 is $87 (with same mhz). Though this is crucial general DDR4 vs Gskill w/ heat spreader, and different cas. And the DDR4 might not be for the new system so prices will probably be higher.

Though with that said, I have seen a lot of people say that the Haswell processor (on 1150/1155) is much more capable than the Ivy in thread performance, significantly enough to warrant a switch if the $$$ spent will be close enough. I plan to buy a new mb, and processor, and memory so a difference of $200, give or take, now, than $500 later might be enough.
That is if nothing new comes out like intel saying they have a replacement for 2011 in the works by than or skylake rips 2011 somewhat. Or if the next gen APU actual shows grand promise. Or mantle gets properly explained and decent amount of evidence is shown in favor(FX).

I have the time to see for three months after 99s for what intel turns out before I want to buy the the mb and components. That might be enough time to allow prices to drop, or prices to skyrocket, or just about to skyrocket. But that is the name of the game.


Spectre, if you have been paying attention, did any 3000s drop at all when the 4000s came out? I know the X series are still equal in price, but that is a 6 v 6. If the lowest entry is going to start at a 6core, I would expect those prices to drop somewhat as well.

Does intel still make 3000s, or are people just trying to get their money back for over purchased quantities?

Why would someone buy a 3960X over a 4960X? Heck, newegg sells the 3960 for $20 more!

 

[SpectreUnleashed]

So your sticking to the 79s based mb? Understanding is that the 99s can't use DDR3. Though I also see the next gen skylake to use both DDR3 and DDR4, so maybe intel will allow it???????


I am hoping for a price drop in those 79 mb to follow when the 99's come out. But, if it is anything like the new 97's and old 87's, that price drop might not be happening for quite some time after it comes out. The great thing about the 79s is that you can use the DDR3 memory, so prices will be low on that end. Anything less than 8gbs and it wouldn't be worth having the 2011's. So with a 8gb module, DDR4 comes at $137, and DDR3 is $87 (with same mhz). Though this is crucial general DDR4 vs Gskill w/ heat spreader, and different cas. And the DDR4 might not be for the new system so prices will probably be higher.

Though with that said, I have seen a lot of people say that the Haswell processor (on 1150/1155) is much more capable than the Ivy in thread performance, significantly enough to warrant a switch if the $$$ spent will be close enough. I plan to buy a new mb, and processor, and memory so a difference of $200, give or take, now, than $500 later might be enough.
That is if nothing new comes out like intel saying they have a replacement for 2011 in the works by than or skylake rips 2011 somewhat. Or if the next gen APU actual shows grand promise. Or mantle gets properly explained and decent amount of evidence is shown in favor(FX).

I have the time to see for three months after 99s for what intel turns out before I want to buy the the mb and components. That might be enough time to allow prices to drop, or prices to skyrocket, or just about to skyrocket. But that is the name of the game.


Spectre, if you have been paying attention, did any 3000s drop at all when the 4000s came out? I know the X series are still equal in price, but that is a 6 v 6. If the lowest entry is going to start at a 6core, I would expect those prices to drop somewhat as well.

Does intel still make 3000s, or are people just trying to get their money back for over purchased quantities?

Why would someone buy a 3960X over a 4960X? Heck, newegg sells the 3960 for $20 more!

I actually do not agree with your point about 3960X and 4960X. They are really similar in terms of performance and they are both 6 cores. What is different is the Bridge, (Sandy-E;Ivy-E) and a 0.3 GHz frequency. However, 5960X will have 8 cores which will add a massive difference. And if 5960X is going to be 1000 USD,you can be sure 4960X and 3960X will have a price drop. No one would buy a 6 cores instead of 8 would they?

However, there are people still buying 3960X, it must be something about Sandy bridge i believe. Because some Sandy CPU's are still popular such as i7-2600K.

Edit: Sandy bridge is told to have the best OC capabilities, thus 3960X is still an option against 4960X for extreme overclockers.