Thinking of getting a SFF system, need expert feedback, thanks all

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bodyops

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Hello guys

I was away from the desktop scene for a few years and recently move toward laptops since I'm a college student. I recently helped my brother configure a system from ibuypower.com since I know system building has changed since the simple single card agp days. Now his system has a x58 chipset asus p6t with a single gtx 260 card. We played crysis and other games on it and I was blown away by the power of the system and the cheap price he paid for it. I was so used to notebook systems that I forgot how much more powerful desktops were. I have a Dell 1730 xps notebook with a core 2 duo extreme cpu with 8800 gtx cards in sli and thought this system was quite powerful, but compared to that single gtx 260 card, it doesn't seem that powerful anymore.

Now my dilemma is deciding weather to get a SFF system or the new 18.4" gaming laptop being released by Clevo, the M98u. Now I can't buy a Full or Mid tower system since it's not convinent for me as I am in school and travel back and forth from school/dorm to home from time to time. So I can't lug around a huge gaming tower. So I was at ibuypower.com and they had a SFF system with a x58 chipset that supports 12 gigs of ram, quad sli in gtx 295 (which I plan on getting). Let me link you to the product on both ibuypower.com and on newegg so you guys can see exactly what system I'm looking at.

Here is the link from the ibuypower.com configure page: http://www.ibuypower.com/ibp/store/configurator.aspx?mid=408

And here is the case from newegg: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx...N82E16811146044


Now this system uses the Asus Rampage II Gene Intel X58 Chipset CrossFire and SLI Supported w/7.1 SupremeFX X-Fi Sound, Triple-Channel DDR3, Gb LAN, S-ATA Raid, Dual PCI-E MB and can be configured with a 1000 watt psu along with two gtx 295 Nvidia cards. Now my concern with this system is the heat it will produce on such a small chassis. The reviews and comments on the newegg site is good and people are saying the cooling is good even with two cards. Now my question:

1. Can this system handle two gtx 295 cards without any heating issues?

2. Is the Asus Rampage II Gene Intel X58 Chipset a good MB? How does it compare with the asus p6t delux V2 or the evga classified?

3. How long will I be able to upgrade this system. Will the future cards like the gtx 300 series or even the next gen after that be able to be put in this system. (sorry for this question, I really have no idea how long a new motherboard will remain upgradable as I haven't kept up to date on desktops since the single agp card days)

4. Does anyone have pictures of this system or the case side by side a regular tower so I have an idea on the size of this system. I tried to google it but I found nothing. They show the dimensions on newegg but would rather see a side by side size comparison.

5. Do you reccommend me getting a liquid cooled cpu and those liquid cooled BFG 295 cards? I don't know if I could afford those liquid cooled cards as its $250 extra per card.

6. Is this thing easy to move around?

7. Does anyone on this forum or site have any experience with this system setup? And additional feedback would be greatly appreciated.



My other option would be to purchase the upcoming Clevo 18.4" M98U gaming laptop. It will have a overclockable Quadcore Extreme QX 9300 processor along with a 1 gig GTX 280M (Mobile Cards) that can run in SLI. Now this is going to be a powerful system, but ever since I went on my brothers new gaming full tower desktop, I been having second thoughts. I was set to get this laptop, but when I seem this system at ibuypower.com, I had another choice to choose from.

What do you guys think? Appreciate any feedback and help I get and thanks for reading this long post.


Sam
 
xthekidx

xthekidx

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1. I don't think I would try it, you would get a lot of heat in there. But honestly, I doubt that you will need that much GPU horsepower anyways. One GTX 295 is plenty for any game you want to play, unless you have a 30" monitor to go with it, which would totally defeat the purpose of an mATX SFF gaming case. Any resolution 1920x1200 or lower will be maxed out by one GTX 295. Or maybe go with two GTX 260's in SLI.

2. Its a decent motherboard, but not at the same level of the P6T Deluxe V2, or the EVGA Classified. But those are ATX boards, the Rampage Gene is a mATX board, so you are comparing apples to oranges. Its very good for a mATX board, I think its the best on the market at this time, not that there are a lot to chose from.

3. It depends on where the development of the video card slots go, and I don't think anyone knows the answer to that for sure. But I think you can count on being able to use any GPU on this motherboard for the next 2-3 years just fine. The longevity of a motherboard or a chipset is purely speculation at this point, no one knows where development will go and what future requirements will be for new hardware.

5. To hook up a lot of hardware to a liquid cooling loop, such as CPU+GPU's+NB+SB requires a very good radiator and pump, which will not go hand in hand with a portable mATX system. I think you should just get air cooled cards, and really don't get two GTX 295's. It will be a serious waste of cash. One GTX 295 or two GTX 275's at the most.

6. Yes, relative to other towers. Your laptop will be more portable. Get a Lan bag for it so you can haul the tower, mouse and keyboard around easily.

For your final question: You will always get much more for your money in a desktop than a laptop. If you are really into playing new games at the highest level of details then a desktop is the way to go. FYI, the GTX 280M cards are not the same thing as the GTX 280 that you find in desktops, they use the G92 processor (same one in your 8800GTX's). They are basically a 9800GTX+ that has been put on a small PCB so it can fit in a laptop. So two of them in that laptop in SLI will be pretty good, but it won't be like having two GTX 280's in a desktop. It will have performance similar to one GTX 285. Also I think overclocking a laptop is a bad idea. The cooling system s on laptops are not designed to be able to handle the extra heat produced by overclocking. Just because the BIOS is unlocked and you have an EE processor doesn't mean that your laptop will be able to overclock well. Your laptop will not last long if you do overclock, and you will not want to put it on your lap! I would just get a desktop and go for the SFF build if you really want good gaming. You will get twice or three times as much for your money in a desktop.
 
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Helloworld_98

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1) it will probably have heat issues if you have 2 GTX 295's in a true SFF pc, which the build you linked to isn't as it uses a mid tower case.

2) Well, it's a rampage so it's aimed at people who want the best and it isn't really fair to compare M-ATX and ATX and E-ATX boards.

3) until they bring in a new graphics card slot.

4)well the one in that link is a mid tower so a bit smaller than a full tower but bigger than a M-ATX(SFF in other words) tower.

5) the liquid cooling will add quite a bit of heft to it and once again, those 295's will probably overheat in an M-ATX case.

6) Not if it's in a mid tower case.

GTX 280M's are equal to a desktop 9800GTX+, so SLI GTX 280M's will probably be close in performance to a GTX 260.
 
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bodyops

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man thanks for the awesome response guys. What is that Nzx case I posted? Is it a M ATX case or a true sff case? I'm a bit confused there. And will the gtx 295's overheat in the case I listed? Thanks all and any additional response would be greatly aprpeciated.
 
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bodyops

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and anyone can find pictures of the Nzx case or even better a side by side picture comparison with a mid tower or a full tower? Thanks
 
Crashman

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To begin with, that's not an SFF case it's almost TWICE the size of SFF. I just wanted to get that in because so many people are calling Micro ATX cubes (4-slot) by the SFF name (2-slot) and the motherboards/cases/power supplies are not interchangable between SFF and Micro ATX.

#1 YES that board can handle two GTX-295's. It can even ventilate 2x GTX-295s. Read the most recent $2500 PC build in Tom's for more info the GTX-295 has fan intakes on both sides and works BETTER on that board than two GTX 260/275/285 cards (the top card has a greater tendency to overheat if its only intake is blocked by another card).

#2 YES you'll see a comparison of the Rampage II Gene and DFI LANParty Jr X58-T3H6 on Friday.

#3 YES you'll be able to upgrade to next-generation PCIe graphics cards, as v3 is backwards compatible with v2 slots. If history is any indicator, you won't even see a performance difference between slot versions for at least two years.

#4 HUGE. It's about 50% wider than a full tower. It's not very TALL though. A good indicator of how wide it is, look at the CD-ROM bay width compared to the width of the case.

#5 NO, liquid cooling is not a requirement for GTX-295's and simply makes installation complicated. Depeding on the case, you might not even have room for the radiator.

#6 NO, it's not easy to move around. If you want easy, I'd find something with a handle.

#7 I haven't used that case, but I have used similar cases. Read the System Builder Marathon this week for more details about what to look at.
 
xthekidx

xthekidx

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Its a large SFF case. Easier to carry around than a full tower, not quite as convenient as a real SFF case. It does use mATX motherboards though. It will be about half as tall as a midtower, but long, which is where it takes up more room.
 
Crashman

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It's not Shuttle Form Factor, it's Micro ATX Form Factor. It's a Micro ATX "cube". As opposed to a Micro ATX tower or desktop. You don't see ignorant people calling mid-towers "MTFF" or desktops "DFF" or HTPC desktops "HTPCFF" do you?
 
xthekidx

xthekidx

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Sorry I wasn't using the correct terminology, I was just trying to put it in terms that the OP would understand. I know its not SFF, the OP obviously didn't. Chill.
 
Crashman

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Well, it's gotten pretty bad. So bad that nVidia even lists Micro ATX boards under the "SFF" heading. That's really going to suck when someone tries to upgrade an SFF system using a Micro ATX motherboard :p
 
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bodyops

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you guys are awesinem tgabjs everyone, thx thekid and crashman for the input. I'll def check out that review later this week. Btw crash, I think that Nzx case comes with a carrying bag with a handle, its supposely 20 lbs. The new clevo gaming 18.4" ntoebook is 13 lbs without the powerblock, prolly around 14 lbs with it. So the gtx 280M notebook cards in sli is close to equal a the desktop equivalent of the 9800 gtx + in sli? Or is it equal to just 1 9800 gtx +?

Thanks the help guys
 
Crashman

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Yes, and that's a problem because a "form factor" is a standard. If it's a standard, everything fits. If you refer to Shuttle XPC's and Micro ATX cubes as SFF, then Micro ATX parts have to fit into XPC's. They don't.

And I'm not even going to argue about Nano-BTX cubes...they do have two slots but those slots are on the "wrong" side...

The problem started with some idiot at a competing website becoming the "source" for mislabeling Micro ATX cubes as SFF, and poor ignorant newbs copying him until better informed readers started accepting it. When I say "idiot at a competing site" I refer to people who should know better, which is worse than simple ignorance.

But the fact remains that "small form factor" doesn't exist if you're using the term "form factor" to refer to multiple form factors. If you're using it to refer to non-shuttle knock-offs with two slots, such as those produced by Aopen and FIC, you're establishing a standard that I hope exists (ie, I hope that the parts fit between those companies if you're calling it a form factor). But then, none of those are Micro ATX.

But there is a form factor applied to Micro ATX cubes. It's called Micro ATX. The industry standard form factors for this family of motherboards are ATX, Micro ATX, Flex ATX, Mini ITX. And then, if Shuttle's motherboards are interchangeable between models, SFF, which fits between Mini ITX and Flex ATX.

There are also power supply form factors: PS/2 (full-sized AT and ATX are PS/2), PS3 (low-depth version of PS/2), SFX, and TFX.

You might find some kind of "case form factor" but if you did, it would be for industrial rack mounts. 1U, 2U, 3U... but I've never heard those refered to as "form factors". Yet they do have something in common with form factors: Standardized dimensions that specify exactly what type of rack space they fit into.

It's like saying "I used a meter of natural gas" when my natural gas meter says I used 1 unit. The gauge is in cubic feet per unit. If you called me on it and said "hey, that's not a cubic meter!" would I then be justified to say "I never said cubic"?

:non:

 
Crashman

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It's Micro ATX. If you wanted an SFF, you'd be buying a "barebones" system. That is, a case, motherboard, and power supply combination. And if you wanted an SFF barebones for Core i7, you'd be looking at the Shuttle XPC SX58H7:

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/shuttle-sx58h7-sff,2282.html
 
Crashman

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When Shuttle released its first 2-slot barebones PC's, a few people called the new design Shuttle Form Factor. When other companies copied the idea, people called the copies Small Form Factor because those are the same initials (SFF).

Around 2 years later when Micro ATX cubes came out, an idiot at a review site called those SFF too. And then another idiot copied him. And soon all the newbs copied the idiots. Then the people who didn't care either way copied the newbs because "all those people can't be wrong". Finally, nVidia started calling Micro ATX motherboards "Small Form Factor" even though the Micro-ATX form factor is a true form factor, see formfactors.org.

Form factors are clearly defined dimensional standards, so there really is no such thing as a "Small" form factor or a "Large" form factor. But, if you want to give Shuttle at least a little credit for popularising 2-slot boards, you could probably call a Shuttle system that uses those boards "SFF". That is, assuming Shuttle boards are cross-compatible with other Shuttle cases.

 
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bodyops

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thx kid thx crash very imformative. I got another question, on the ibuypwer.com config page with the Nzx system, it list an option for a liquid cooled cpu, can you explain what type of liquid cooling this is as it seems it doesn't need a radiator. Here is the link: http://www.ibuypower.com/ibp/store/configurator.aspx?mid=408

Also my final question and concern here, in this review of the asus rampage gene II, they cram two gtx 295 in there and say it runs cool and the system is very stable, they also overclock the system. Can you guys check it out and tell me what you think. If you guys think it should be a good system for what im looking for, then I will be confident enough to order the system.

Here is the link: http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/forum/hardware-canucks-reviews/17808-asus-rampage-ii-gene-matx-lga1366-motherboard-review.html

Also what case should I get, the Micro atx silverstone or that Nzx case? Seems to me that Nzx case is easier to carry around.

Thanks in advance guys!
 
Crashman

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Take a look at the dimensions on your first choice:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811146044

Multiply length by width by height.

Now take a look at your second choice:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811163085

Multiply length by width by height.

Notice that the NZXT looks small, but it's nearly TWICE as big as the Silverstone SG03.

So, the small looks are a fake-out. But there is a small-problem with the NZXT that prevented it from being considered for the THG $2500 PC: The power supply is directly behind the optical bay.

For any reduced-depth case, putting the power supply behind the optical bay means that any combination of long power supply and/or long optical drive (DVD burner, etc) will cause one to consume the space of the other.
 
xthekidx

xthekidx

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The thing about that silverstone case is that you can't use an aftermarket cooler in there, so you won't be able to overclock much. The NZXT looks like it would fit a good cooler, if it was oriented in the right direction. I can't say it would for sure.

On that astek liquid cooling from ibuypower, it has the radiator and pump built in to the same aparatus. Its just got a miniature radiator on it. It won't cool as well as a decent air cooler though.
 
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bodyops

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hey Crash, very informative as usual. Yes I see the dimensions, the Nzxt case is bigger than the silverstone in every shap and forum. Man screenshots can be deciving seriously. So ebcause of the location of the PSU, it makes the silverstone a better case for this type of system? Also because the size of the Nxzxt case, where its a little biggle, wouldnt more space be better than lesser space? Is there a review of the Nzxt case anywhere? Or even reviews on the best type of case for the type of system I am building? And what review will this site be posting up on friday regarding the THG PC's? (What does THC stand for?)

Thanks again

P.S, Crash could you give me your input on another post I have here? here is the link: http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/264977-33-sites#t1944876

Thank you
 
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