This is how Motherboard SHOULD be built
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aziraphale
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leo2kp
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It's harder than it looks to build a working motherboard, and even more work to change the entire standard. I think right now, with a good case, we are as optimal as we're going to get.
jsc is right, the heat from the HDDs are moving over the RAM heating up the air even more, which is in turn being sucked in to the CPU. Imagine blowing 70C air over your processor. That would raise processor temps considerably.
Optimal cases will separate the PSU and HDDs from the rest of the computer allowing the motherboard (and anything connected to it) to be cooled separately, and using video cards with rear-exit exhausts also help a lot.
jsc is right, the heat from the HDDs are moving over the RAM heating up the air even more, which is in turn being sucked in to the CPU. Imagine blowing 70C air over your processor. That would raise processor temps considerably.
Optimal cases will separate the PSU and HDDs from the rest of the computer allowing the motherboard (and anything connected to it) to be cooled separately, and using video cards with rear-exit exhausts also help a lot.
yeah... that looks good... let's just forget about the thousands of people and millions of hours of schooling in pcb design and dozens of years of motherboard experience by manufacturers and engineers and lets change everything around cause some guy got a copy of visio and a hair up his ass.
- Jun 5, 2007
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no its nothing like the BTX design...
two I worked in "the industry for 20 some years.
three I know the case would have to be redesigned
four air flow goes front (HD's) to back (front being the right side of drawing
five the intake or front fan would have to have a filter
six the rear end (connector end) of vid cards would have to be reworked (maybe right angle) to allow a left case side connector.
seven did you know that most mainframes are built exactly like this for the very reason that it works
eight...I dont have the resources to build this....however a clever moder might just change the industry ^^
Think of it...no elaborate cooling aka phase, peltier, water etc
We have been led via hype that reworking the traces on a mobo is a hard thing...it isnt! (photoetching anyone?)
The ONLY difficult part I see would be the connections from the vid/sound/phys/etc cards to the left side of case...and even that isnt THAT hard....a company ...say EVGA could simply put right-angle connectors on board (pin layout identical etc) add an over long cable from connector to case side...hinge the case side at the rear.
We've all basically been assuming that a mobo layout, designed when even heatsinks werent necessary...is way past its prime. ...and we were right!
Cooling solutions today are ridiculous (high cost, PITA installation, further maintenace etc)
Someone with a dremel a small machine shop a little electrical knowledge and a mobo manufacturer up their sleeve...could easily build this and sweep the market. I'd imagine the current cooling system providers would balk
As far as I can see the ONLY decent cooling system so far would be phase change and at $700/unit.....well thats just nuts.
Prediction: The 1st company to go this route will become very rich very fast.
one sec....my resonator/phase-peltier/12 fan/ danger den colling system needs 12.2 years of maintenace brb
:/
ouch just broke off my right thumb in a careless liquid nitrogen accident!
P.S. case and mobo would be same size as today (well case would be 9-10" wide to accommodate the fans)
further, no more vid card power connectors near or IN the harddrive cage (HD's mounted front to back)
since HD's create so little heat compared to other components, blowing ambient aire over the HD's would NOT
be an issue. Lastly, you MIGHT have noticed that all cooler components at front and hottest at back. With,
what........200cfpm airflow? ...the heat wouldnt have a remote chance of remaining in case.
The same effect could be TESTED, cheaply by simply building a system (current layout) inside a 8" diameter Sono-Tube (available at Home Depot etc) and mounting 2 8" fans on either end. Without actually testing this way I have NO numbers to post, BUT I'll give 50-1 odds that it will silently solve all cooling problems, and (the test) would require NO help from the manufacturers. Just mod a standard issue comp in an 8" Sono_Tube and laugh on your' way to the bank
two I worked in "the industry for 20 some years.
three I know the case would have to be redesigned
four air flow goes front (HD's) to back (front being the right side of drawing
five the intake or front fan would have to have a filter
six the rear end (connector end) of vid cards would have to be reworked (maybe right angle) to allow a left case side connector.
seven did you know that most mainframes are built exactly like this for the very reason that it works
eight...I dont have the resources to build this....however a clever moder might just change the industry ^^
Think of it...no elaborate cooling aka phase, peltier, water etc
We have been led via hype that reworking the traces on a mobo is a hard thing...it isnt! (photoetching anyone?)
The ONLY difficult part I see would be the connections from the vid/sound/phys/etc cards to the left side of case...and even that isnt THAT hard....a company ...say EVGA could simply put right-angle connectors on board (pin layout identical etc) add an over long cable from connector to case side...hinge the case side at the rear.
We've all basically been assuming that a mobo layout, designed when even heatsinks werent necessary...is way past its prime. ...and we were right!
Cooling solutions today are ridiculous (high cost, PITA installation, further maintenace etc)
Someone with a dremel a small machine shop a little electrical knowledge and a mobo manufacturer up their sleeve...could easily build this and sweep the market. I'd imagine the current cooling system providers would balk
As far as I can see the ONLY decent cooling system so far would be phase change and at $700/unit.....well thats just nuts.
Prediction: The 1st company to go this route will become very rich very fast.
one sec....my resonator/phase-peltier/12 fan/ danger den colling system needs 12.2 years of maintenace brb
:/ouch just broke off my right thumb in a careless liquid nitrogen accident!
P.S. case and mobo would be same size as today (well case would be 9-10" wide to accommodate the fans)
further, no more vid card power connectors near or IN the harddrive cage (HD's mounted front to back)
since HD's create so little heat compared to other components, blowing ambient aire over the HD's would NOT
be an issue. Lastly, you MIGHT have noticed that all cooler components at front and hottest at back. With,
what........200cfpm airflow? ...the heat wouldnt have a remote chance of remaining in case.
The same effect could be TESTED, cheaply by simply building a system (current layout) inside a 8" diameter Sono-Tube (available at Home Depot etc) and mounting 2 8" fans on either end. Without actually testing this way I have NO numbers to post, BUT I'll give 50-1 odds that it will silently solve all cooling problems, and (the test) would require NO help from the manufacturers. Just mod a standard issue comp in an 8" Sono_Tube and laugh on your' way to the bank
slicessoul
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slicessoul
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ghot :
silly man, I already sent this same proposal to ASUS True they MAY be rofl atm...but they aren't stupid and DO need a miracle soon ^^
I can see it now...be the first on your block to own the ........ Ultracool Spider AMD/ATI system!
True they MAY be rofl atm...but they aren't stupid and DO need a miracle soon ^^I can see it now...be the first on your block to own the ........ Ultracool Spider AMD/ATI system!
If you already sent this same proposal to ASUS, why did you post the design here ? No wonder Asus are rofl atm at you.
michiganteddybear
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redesigning the mobo will be a LOT more difficult that you realize. Yes, just moving around the components is easy. Now, try to get the TIMING of the signals to them now displaced components right. Yes, our mobo's are designed to such a point that the time it takes for the electrical impluses to get from point a to point b is accounted for! Yes, we are talking about nanosecs at the best, but its all got to be accounted for!
Remember the first really fast super computer?? the Cray 1?? they measured EVERY signal trace and made sure that the proper signal was in the proper place at EXACTLY the right time. Not before, Not after. that meant that some traces that could easily have been 1/4 inch long were over a foot or more!
Just goes to show how much planning goes into building this stuff that people dont realize
Remember the first really fast super computer?? the Cray 1?? they measured EVERY signal trace and made sure that the proper signal was in the proper place at EXACTLY the right time. Not before, Not after. that meant that some traces that could easily have been 1/4 inch long were over a foot or more!
Just goes to show how much planning goes into building this stuff that people dont realize
- Jun 5, 2007
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dude seriopusly in the service I designed motherboards back in the day i know about ns and even ps instead of dissing this idea why dont you NOT reply and instead THINK about it.....I'd be willing to bet that you could overclock the bejeezus outta (lets say) the cheap test version and still NOT see ANY rise in temps...well above ambient room temp anyways.
If I had an old HOT comp and 150$ I would build it, overclock it, then post the temps...but as I dont...sum1 else should^^
Did you in all your wisdom KNOW that every mainframe comp is built on this same principle......in fact most only have ONE huge exhaust fan....use no Proc fans etc. Ambient room temp is way lower than temps recorded in current DESKTOP setups.....200 cfpm of air tornadoing past a measly desktop system......is a good, quiet solution.
But don't let NEW scare you.....if it does can I please borrow your Abacus, I'm sure IT at least will run cooler :/
P.S. Comps like Cray, Bluegene etc are NOT mainframes so to speak they are in their own class called super computers.
If I had an old HOT comp and 150$ I would build it, overclock it, then post the temps...but as I dont...sum1 else should^^
Did you in all your wisdom KNOW that every mainframe comp is built on this same principle......in fact most only have ONE huge exhaust fan....use no Proc fans etc. Ambient room temp is way lower than temps recorded in current DESKTOP setups.....200 cfpm of air tornadoing past a measly desktop system......is a good, quiet solution.
But don't let NEW scare you.....if it does can I please borrow your Abacus, I'm sure IT at least will run cooler :/
P.S. Comps like Cray, Bluegene etc are NOT mainframes so to speak they are in their own class called super computers.
crazywheels
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ghot
are you going to fill those sono-tubes with concrete? I really don't seeing somebody getting rich over night to change a standard that has worked for 12 years now. To change a mobo the case manufactures will have to change their cases, and not everybody will jump on something right away. It is very costly to change all of this. So your way may work better but it would take years to become a standard. By the way did you hear back from Asus when you sent that proposal?
are you going to fill those sono-tubes with concrete? I really don't seeing somebody getting rich over night to change a standard that has worked for 12 years now. To change a mobo the case manufactures will have to change their cases, and not everybody will jump on something right away. It is very costly to change all of this. So your way may work better but it would take years to become a standard. By the way did you hear back from Asus when you sent that proposal?
- Apr 29, 2006
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Interesting idea, but.....
Even BTX, which is kinda like ATX version 2, never really caught on. It would be far cheaper to implement that then what you purpose, and people didn't do it. Now that Intel has cooler chips, the BTX standard as been all but completely shelved.
Speaking of which, how cool do you need your CPU? Many people using air cooling are able to get temps in the mid 30s. And that is with stock heatsinks. I've seen after market ones that cost <=$40 allow you to overclock nicely, while still keeping the temps reasonable. The only reason you need water or phase is if you are going for a monster overclock, or are using older CPUs.
I'm sorry, but I'm going with the others in this thread. Intel had enough trouble talking people into use BTX, which would have been much cheaper then what you want to do. (how are you going to get the side of your case off with your peripherals plugged into them?) Unless you demand that your CPU stays at 20c, air cooling is fine.
Even BTX, which is kinda like ATX version 2, never really caught on. It would be far cheaper to implement that then what you purpose, and people didn't do it. Now that Intel has cooler chips, the BTX standard as been all but completely shelved.
Speaking of which, how cool do you need your CPU? Many people using air cooling are able to get temps in the mid 30s. And that is with stock heatsinks. I've seen after market ones that cost <=$40 allow you to overclock nicely, while still keeping the temps reasonable. The only reason you need water or phase is if you are going for a monster overclock, or are using older CPUs.
I'm sorry, but I'm going with the others in this thread. Intel had enough trouble talking people into use BTX, which would have been much cheaper then what you want to do. (how are you going to get the side of your case off with your peripherals plugged into them?) Unless you demand that your CPU stays at 20c, air cooling is fine.
- Jun 5, 2007
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I only sent it yesterday so no I havent heard back :/ I KNOW its costly to re layout a mobo...however the case mod wud be simple and cheap.
In case you're NOT up on manufacturing processes....a comp case is nothing more than a few stamped pieces of sheet metal....20 minutes on a CNC mill will do it easily.
The industry already made a half-ass attempt at this same solution in the BTX form factor....just because they tried to rework existing layouts (dumb) does NOT mean this isnt a good...even great solution.
Lastly I'm so tired of seeing products and their associated ads that cost a fortune and do little to lower temps...oooooo 5C drop wow!
...and you're correct it wont happen over night.... but our current 12 year standard, DOESN'T work!!! Hence the springing up of all these expensive cooling solutions, that only work marginally, at best, and cost an arm and a leg to boot. Any leaks yet?
P.S. and yes lad I know what the primary use for Sono-Tubes is....and no they wont need concrete.
In case you're NOT up on manufacturing processes....a comp case is nothing more than a few stamped pieces of sheet metal....20 minutes on a CNC mill will do it easily.
The industry already made a half-ass attempt at this same solution in the BTX form factor....just because they tried to rework existing layouts (dumb) does NOT mean this isnt a good...even great solution.
Lastly I'm so tired of seeing products and their associated ads that cost a fortune and do little to lower temps...oooooo 5C drop wow!
...and you're correct it wont happen over night.... but our current 12 year standard, DOESN'T work!!! Hence the springing up of all these expensive cooling solutions, that only work marginally, at best, and cost an arm and a leg to boot. Any leaks yet?
P.S. and yes lad I know what the primary use for Sono-Tubes is....and no they wont need concrete.
- Jun 5, 2007
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P.P.S. IF you really look at the first drawing at the top of this post you will SEE that I did take the mobo circuit runs into consideration....in fact they will be faster than the current layouts. The design eliminates the vid card-HD cage problem entirely.....puts all the onboard component in closer proximity than they are currently..and due to the entire system being located in a "wind tunnel" so to speak....you prolly wont even need component fans...I'd guess that mere heat sinks in that air flow would blow away any current cooling system.
C.mon now someone has to have a spare hot-proc comp and a Home Depot card....PROVE me wrong...use even an existing mobo for test.....if i win the lottery in next month or so...I'll build it...but considering I lose EVERY game of chance I've ever played....I'm not going to hold my breath
C.mon now someone has to have a spare hot-proc comp and a Home Depot card....PROVE me wrong...use even an existing mobo for test.....if i win the lottery in next month or so...I'll build it...but considering I lose EVERY game of chance I've ever played....I'm not going to hold my breath
crazywheels
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you don't need expensive cooling solutions to run pc parts at stock speed. The sudden growth of cooling solutions is that more people are building pc's now then ever before. The reason for that is easier to build a pc and plus all of the info on the net that can read about to build a pc. So all of these companies see that there is a market for this and that they know that people want to get their most of the machine.
Your right I am not up on the manufacturing process and don't really know much about CNC machine.
Your right I am not up on the manufacturing process and don't really know much about CNC machine.
- Apr 29, 2006
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True, depending on what you consider a fortune. Exotic high end air coolers cost ~$60, many can be had for $40. Lets get some real world examples.
http://www.anandtech.com/casecoolingpsus/showdoc.aspx?i=3113&p=5
The best cooler from this review is the Thermalright Ultra 120 Extreme. How much does it cost?
http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=23531&vpn=ULTRA-120-EXTREME&manufacture=THERMALRIGHT
$65cad, Lets make it an even $100cad for a REALLY nice fan. Does it perform only 5c better? There is a 7c difference at idle, and its 14c better under load. With this cooler you almost get idle stock cooler performance but at load.
Doesn't work? Expensive cooling solutions? Only work marginally? Any leaks? Only the one in your head. I was nice the first time, now I fully agree with the others. Put the crack pipe down, its messing with your thinking.
jitpublisher
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- May 16, 2006
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