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Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

Hello all,
I'm wondering if the knowledgable ones can tell me about how long it
takes to create a character with all the different super hero rpg
systems out there.

Thanks

--
Aaron Deskins
Graduate Student
Chemical Engineering
Purdue University
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

"Aaron Deskins" <ndeskins@ecn.purdue.edu> wrote in message
news:408D20D9.9010609@ecn.purdue.edu...
> Hello all,
> I'm wondering if the knowledgable ones can tell me about how long it
> takes to create a character with all the different super hero rpg
> systems out there.
>
> Thanks
>

Too difficult to gauge actually. Time varies with experience. Some take
longer than others true, but no one persons experience will be identical to
another's.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

I'm really looking for ball-park figures. Mostly the major systems-
Hero, M&M, Marvel, SAS, etc. For example, does it take 5 hours with
Hero, but 1/2 with Marvel? I'm just trying to get a feel for the
complexity and time requirements of the different systems.

Sidhain wrote:
> "Aaron Deskins" <ndeskins@ecn.purdue.edu> wrote in message
> news:408D20D9.9010609@ecn.purdue.edu...
>
>>Hello all,
>> I'm wondering if the knowledgable ones can tell me about how long it
>>takes to create a character with all the different super hero rpg
>>systems out there.
>>
>>Thanks
>>
>
>
> Too difficult to gauge actually. Time varies with experience. Some take
> longer than others true, but no one persons experience will be identical to
> another's.
>
>


--
Aaron Deskins
Graduate Student
Chemical Engineering
Purdue University
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 17:32:37 GMT, "Sidhain" <sidhain@earthlink.net>
wrote:

>
>"Aaron Deskins" <ndeskins@ecn.purdue.edu> wrote in message
>news:408D20D9.9010609@ecn.purdue.edu...
>> Hello all,
>> I'm wondering if the knowledgable ones can tell me about how long it
>> takes to create a character with all the different super hero rpg
>> systems out there.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>
>Too difficult to gauge actually. Time varies with experience. Some take
>longer than others true, but no one persons experience will be identical to
>another's.
>

And decisiveness on the character creator's part.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 12:46:08 -0500, Aaron Deskins
<ndeskins@ecn.purdue.edu> wrote:

>I'm really looking for ball-park figures. Mostly the major systems-
>Hero, M&M, Marvel, SAS, etc. For example, does it take 5 hours with
>Hero, but 1/2 with Marvel? I'm just trying to get a feel for the
>complexity and time requirements of the different systems.

The problem is, even a ballpark is useless unless you're assuming some
specific level of familiarity with the rules. Worse, it depends in
some cases on the complexity of the character. For example, Hero
allows the most mechanical detail of the above listed most likely
(someone can make an argument about SAS I suppose) but putting
together a simple energy projector for an experienced player isn't
particular long at all. Putting together a really complex concept
with a lot of fussy power limitations and advantages is another story,
though. Some other games this is less true for, either because more
of the system is canned (i.e. predefined) in the first place, or just
because it doesn't support that level of fussiness.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

"Aaron Deskins" <ndeskins@ecn.purdue.edu> wrote in message
news:408D20D9.9010609@ecn.purdue.edu...
> Hello all,
> I'm wondering if the knowledgable ones can tell me about how long it
> takes to create a character with all the different super hero rpg
> systems out there.

Thinking time can be minutes, hours, or days, and is independent of the
system used. But I assume you mean number-crunching time. I do the stats for
a Champions character in 10-20 minutes, I think. A Golden Heroes character
used to take me 1-2 minutes (one of the many reasons why GH is the best
superhero system). I can't remember how long a GURPS Supers character took
me but I think it was longer than in Champions.


--
David Meadows
Heroes: www.heroes.force9.co.uk/scripts/
A comic book -- without the pictures
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

Wayne Shaw wrote:

>
> The problem is, even a ballpark is useless unless you're assuming some
> specific level of familiarity with the rules. Worse, it depends in
> some cases on the complexity of the character. For example, Hero
> allows the most mechanical detail of the above listed most likely
> (someone can make an argument about SAS I suppose) but putting
> together a simple energy projector for an experienced player isn't
> particular long at all. Putting together a really complex concept
> with a lot of fussy power limitations and advantages is another story,
> though.

A major reason I no longer play Champions is that as I became
more experienced with the rules I kept trying more and more
complex characters. A "simple energy projector" loses some
interest after a while. It was taking me more and more time to
build characters the better I knew the system! Yeah, I could
slap together a cliched brick in a few minutes but to stat
an interesting (to me) character or NPC could take hours and that
was just too much time to devote to each bad guys in a large
villian organization that I'd get to use maybe every four games,
playing a game every other weekend or so.

I eventually hit a similar wall with Aberrant,
but may go back to it.

Marval Saga is still my current pick as it's easy to justify creating
a new power as opposed to tweaking the rules to get something
just right.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

"Sorcier" <sNoErMcOier@cavtel.net> wrote in message
news:nKkjc.88$8M3.30492@news.uswest.net...
>
>
> A major reason I no longer play Champions is that as I became
> more experienced with the rules I kept trying more and more
> complex characters. A "simple energy projector" loses some
> interest after a while. It was taking me more and more time to
> build characters the better I knew the system! Yeah, I could
> slap together a cliched brick in a few minutes but to stat
> an interesting (to me) character or NPC could take hours and that
> was just too much time to devote to each bad guys in a large
> villian organization that I'd get to use maybe every four games,
> playing a game every other weekend or so.

So did I. So I stopped bothering to make that effort. Only stat-out an NPC
if you really really need a fully rounded character. Otherwise you just
need a name (for the big bads) or a number (for a faceless minion) with a
short list of combat stats, attacks and defense.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

I hope Sidhain doesn't mind me posting his reply to me. My follow-up
question would be - is the time of character creation proportional to
the complexity of the game system? How do they compare?

Thanks.


His response:

Ye e-mailed me rather than posting. My numbers are
Hero 2 hours
M&M 15 minutes
SAS 45 minutes
Marvel Saga 5 minutes
MURPG (Stone marvel) no idea
Godlike 1 hour



--
Aaron Deskins
Graduate Student
Chemical Engineering
Purdue University
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

Sidhain wrote:
> Too difficult to gauge actually. Time varies with experience. Some take
> longer than others true, but no one persons experience will be identical to
> another's.

One must also be mindful of the fact that the simpler the rules
are, the longer one will be debating the contents of the
character sheet with the GM. So as you simplify the rules, you
tend to prolong the argument-with-the-GM over the permissibility
of the chosen stats - convincing the GM to actually let you
*play* the character you've just created.

--
Peter Knutsen
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

"Peter Knutsen" <peter@knutsen.dk> wrote in message
news:c6ls0u$17n6$1@news.cybercity.dk...
>
> Sidhain wrote:
> > Too difficult to gauge actually. Time varies with experience. Some take
> > longer than others true, but no one persons experience will be identical
to
> > another's.
>
> One must also be mindful of the fact that the simpler the rules
> are, the longer one will be debating the contents of the
> character sheet with the GM. So as you simplify the rules, you
> tend to prolong the argument-with-the-GM over the permissibility
> of the chosen stats - convincing the GM to actually let you
> *play* the character you've just created.
>


I know you think that's true.And it may be for you because you make rules so
important.

For me It's not--I've never had a player debate with me /ever/ and I've
used Risus, and Marvel Saga and OTE and AMBER, among many other rules light
games.

I on the other hand actually talk to my players, I interact with them, I
involve them in the process of the campaign creation rather than hand them a
rulebook and say make something.

..
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

Aaron Deskins wrote:
> Hello all,
> I'm wondering if the knowledgable ones can tell me about how long it
> takes to create a character with all the different super hero rpg
> systems out there.
>
> Thanks
>

Depending on system, it can range from about half an hour to a
week. Mostly it depends on the players, their experience with the
system, and the preferences of the GM and players in terms of detail.

--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 09:46:49 -0500, Aaron Deskins
<ndeskins@ecn.purdue.edu> wrote:

>Hello all,
> I'm wondering if the knowledgable ones can tell me about how long it
>takes to create a character with all the different super hero rpg
>systems out there.
>
>Thanks

That really depends on the player and the system. I can make a
Champions character faster than I can make a character for any other
system. I know how the rulebook is structured, I know all the powers,
and I know what power levels are effective. 10 minutes, easy. I
would need at least 30 minutes with pretty much any other game system,
as I would have to walk through their character building process (most
have a step by step character building checklist in them).

YMMV, (never have I meant that so much)

John Turner
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 23:47:16 -0400, Sorcier <sNoErMcOier@cavtel.net>
wrote:

>Wayne Shaw wrote:
>
>>
>> The problem is, even a ballpark is useless unless you're assuming some
>> specific level of familiarity with the rules. Worse, it depends in
>> some cases on the complexity of the character. For example, Hero
>> allows the most mechanical detail of the above listed most likely
>> (someone can make an argument about SAS I suppose) but putting
>> together a simple energy projector for an experienced player isn't
>> particular long at all. Putting together a really complex concept
>> with a lot of fussy power limitations and advantages is another story,
>> though.
>
>A major reason I no longer play Champions is that as I became
>more experienced with the rules I kept trying more and more
>complex characters. A "simple energy projector" loses some

I have that problem these days no matter what game system I'm using to
play supers. It had already reached that point a few years back when
I was MUSHing; barring the one feature character I played, all my
characters were pretty baroque in design. And if the system doesn't
support the distinctions I'm making at least to some degree it tends
to just frustrate me (this was one of my issues with MEGS).

>Marval Saga is still my current pick as it's easy to justify creating
>a new power as opposed to tweaking the rules to get something
>just right.

Of course then you're just creating and (trying) to balance new powers
instead. Not much net gain there.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 16:52:16 +0200, Peter Knutsen <peter@knutsen.dk>
wrote:

>
>Sidhain wrote:
>> Too difficult to gauge actually. Time varies with experience. Some take
>> longer than others true, but no one persons experience will be identical to
>> another's.
>
>One must also be mindful of the fact that the simpler the rules
>are, the longer one will be debating the contents of the
>character sheet with the GM. So as you simplify the rules, you

I realize this is your hotspot Peter, but it's not always true at all.
It may be that the simpler rules simply don't permit things outside
their range.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 12:35:26 -0500, Aaron Deskins
<ndeskins@ecn.purdue.edu> wrote:

>His response:
>
>Ye e-mailed me rather than posting. My numbers are
>Hero 2 hours
>M&M 15 minutes

These two seem a little long and a little short respectively to me,
and I don't think it's entirely a consequence of familiarity.

>SAS 45 minutes

Probably about right, though maybe on the short side.

>Marvel Saga 5 minutes

Only if you're extremely decisive.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

> >Hero 2 hours
> >M&M 15 minutes
>
> These two seem a little long and a little short respectively to me,
> and I don't think it's entirely a consequence of familiarity.
>

They would, I'm very familiar with M&M now, and can put together numbers
quickly, I'm also very familiar with Hero but it takes significantly more
time to worry about certian aspects--I want my pc to be attractive, I make
it so in M&M, if I want to in ero I've got to evaluate just "how" attractive
is attractive by degrees of consequence. (Sure M&M has Charisma but it also
has the Feat "Beautiful" IIRC)

It's also to do with defense balancing--I don't /have/ to build a defense
for every M&M pc I make, the system is designed so that I don't need one all
the time, depending on PL, Hero on the other hand suggests designs where
/everyone/ has some form of defense-armor/damage reduction/deflection etc.


> >Marvel Saga 5 minutes
>
> Only if you're extremely decisive.
>
>

I am in all games I always approach them with "what I want to make" as a
matter of time measuring cause if I count how long it takes me to think
about what I want to make we might be counting time in years--I have a
speedster in my head for a LONG while, but never statted him up, although
I've got sketches of him, I finally statted him up for M&M, but the
"deciding what I want him to do" was over by that point, it was just using
the mechanics to get there.

Which since characters can and do percolate, I don't think the "genesis"
time should be recorded.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 18:09:01 GMT, "Sidhain" <sidhain@earthlink.net>
wrote:

>
>
>> >Hero 2 hours
>> >M&M 15 minutes
>>
>> These two seem a little long and a little short respectively to me,
>> and I don't think it's entirely a consequence of familiarity.
>>
>
>They would, I'm very familiar with M&M now, and can put together numbers
>quickly, I'm also very familiar with Hero but it takes significantly more
>time to worry about certian aspects--I want my pc to be attractive, I make
>it so in M&M, if I want to in ero I've got to evaluate just "how" attractive
>is attractive by degrees of consequence. (Sure M&M has Charisma but it also
>has the Feat "Beautiful" IIRC)

Ah. More opportunity for decision paralysis. I can see that.

>
>It's also to do with defense balancing--I don't /have/ to build a defense
>for every M&M pc I make, the system is designed so that I don't need one all
>the time, depending on PL, Hero on the other hand suggests designs where
>/everyone/ has some form of defense-armor/damage reduction/deflection etc.

I'm not sure I can agree unless you don't consider Amazing Save a
defense, Sid. Someone without _something_ there is going to fold up
early in a fight (and may do so even if hard to hit; it's not a
coincidence they give even their Speedsters and Martial Artists
Evasion).

>
>
>> >Marvel Saga 5 minutes
>>
>> Only if you're extremely decisive.
>>
>>
>
>I am in all games I always approach them with "what I want to make" as a
>matter of time measuring cause if I count how long it takes me to think

I just observed that trading off card placement could get _very_ long
if you couldn't quickly settle.

>Which since characters can and do percolate, I don't think the "genesis"
>time should be recorded.

I just think the fact you can't do some of that before playing the
cards out makes it more part of the process here; if I go into the
game with a very specific character in mind, the card distribution may
make them simply undoable; you really need to generate the character
idea after seeing the available cards (though the cards don't exactly
_mandate_ what character you play. But they do limit what's
practical).
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 17:47:45 GMT, John Turner
<averyk@ev1.REMOVETHISBITTOREPLY.net> wrote:

>On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 09:46:49 -0500, Aaron Deskins
><ndeskins@ecn.purdue.edu> wrote:
>
>>Hello all,
>> I'm wondering if the knowledgable ones can tell me about how long it
>>takes to create a character with all the different super hero rpg
>>systems out there.
>>
>>Thanks
>
>That really depends on the player and the system. I can make a
>Champions character faster than I can make a character for any other
>system. I know how the rulebook is structured, I know all the powers,
>and I know what power levels are effective. 10 minutes, easy. I

I've gotten so I know MnM almost as well; what I don't have yet is the
intuitive feeling for what designs are too big for a given point range
the way I do in Hero. When I was recently putting together the big
opponent for my upcoming campaign, I had a specific PL range I wanted
him in, and it turned out I was loading him down with way too many
extras to fit him to it initially. So I had to strip out things.

Someone inexperienced with Hero could easily find themselves doing the
same thing.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

Tom Carman wrote:

> "Sorcier" <sNoErMcOier@cavtel.net> wrote in message
> news:nKkjc.88$8M3.30492@news.uswest.net...
>
>>
>>A major reason I no longer play Champions is that as I became
>>more experienced with the rules I kept trying more and more
>>complex characters. A "simple energy projector" loses some
>>interest after a while. It was taking me more and more time to
>>build characters the better I knew the system! Yeah, I could
>>slap together a cliched brick in a few minutes but to stat
>>an interesting (to me) character or NPC could take hours and that
>>was just too much time to devote to each bad guys in a large
>>villian organization that I'd get to use maybe every four games,
>>playing a game every other weekend or so.
>
>
> So did I. So I stopped bothering to make that effort. Only stat-out an NPC
> if you really really need a fully rounded character.

That's the prob. I usually do need that.


> Otherwise you just
> need a name (for the big bads)

My players hate when I pull that. 😉
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

Wayne Shaw wrote:

>
>>Marval Saga is still my current pick as it's easy to justify creating
>>a new power as opposed to tweaking the rules to get something
>>just right.
>
>
> Of course then you're just creating and (trying) to balance new powers
> instead. Not much net gain there.

Actually, the system handles the balance issue pretty well there.
With rare exceptions.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 17:31:24 -0400, Sorcier <sNoErMcOier@cavtel.net>
wrote:

>Wayne Shaw wrote:
>
>>
>>>Marval Saga is still my current pick as it's easy to justify creating
>>>a new power as opposed to tweaking the rules to get something
>>>just right.
>>
>>
>> Of course then you're just creating and (trying) to balance new powers
>> instead. Not much net gain there.
>
>Actually, the system handles the balance issue pretty well there.
>With rare exceptions.

Not in my observation when we were using it. MSHAG did not seem
particularly well mechanically balanced.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

Wayne Shaw wrote:

> On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 17:31:24 -0400, Sorcier <sNoErMcOier@cavtel.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Wayne Shaw wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>Marval Saga is still my current pick as it's easy to justify creating
>>>>a new power as opposed to tweaking the rules to get something
>>>>just right.
>>>
>>>
>>>Of course then you're just creating and (trying) to balance new powers
>>>instead. Not much net gain there.
>>
>>Actually, the system handles the balance issue pretty well there.
>>With rare exceptions.
>
>
> Not in my observation when we were using it. MSHAG did not seem
> particularly well mechanically balanced.

It really only has one mechanic as far as powers go.
All powers boil down to effect vs. resistance.
(or vice versa)

That said, the game really isn't aimed at the "a point of X must be
of equal worth to a point of Y" crowd.
Part of why I like it.
Point based games try to maintain that illusion, but it's too easy
to break.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

>
> I just think the fact you can't do some of that before playing the
> cards out makes it more part of the process here; if I go into the
> game with a very specific character in mind, the card distribution may
> make them simply undoable; you really need to generate the character
> idea after seeing the available cards (though the cards don't exactly
> _mandate_ what character you play. But they do limit what's
> practical).


Sometimes yes-- I've never been completely un-able to make a character I
desired either--the only time came close was a spur of the moment game when
I wanted to make a superstrong/tough character and got gypped on strength
cards--hhowever I had no strong concept either since it was a spur of the
moment game (actually one of the few times I didn't have my "next" character
in my head already) and I ended up wit a smart brick who had a magic sword,
shield and armor rather than Hulk like strength.


By the same token, the randomness helps prevent any guaranteed optimization
on a player's part because they don't know what exactly they'll get.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

"Wayne Shaw" <shaw@caprica.com> wrote in message
news:10cfa7b6a93c5f243afb918e0f66f9cb@news.nntpserver.com...
> On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 17:31:24 -0400, Sorcier <sNoErMcOier@cavtel.net>
> wrote:
>
> >Wayne Shaw wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>>Marval Saga is still my current pick as it's easy to justify creating
> >>>a new power as opposed to tweaking the rules to get something
> >>>just right.
> >>
> >>
> >> Of course then you're just creating and (trying) to balance new powers
> >> instead. Not much net gain there.
> >
> >Actually, the system handles the balance issue pretty well there.
> >With rare exceptions.
>
> Not in my observation when we were using it. MSHAG did not seem
> particularly well mechanically balanced.


I've used it for a significant time, it depends a great deal on what you
mean "balanced" if you mean "all pc's built so they are exactly balanced by
constructed comparable plan" no, but if you mean "makes all characters
capable of succeeding and getting equal spotlight time" then yes it is
balanced.
 
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