Timing with Sigil of the new Dawn

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Hello !

Card Name: Sigil of the New Dawn
Card Color: W
Mana Cost: 3W
Type & Class: Enchantment
Pow/Tou:
Card Text: Whenever a creature is put into your graveyard from play,
you may pay 1W. If you do, return that card to your hand.


A situation accured lately where my opponent and me werent shure how to
handle it. He had the Sigil in play and I had a Thran Foundry in play.

Thran Foundry
{1}
Artifact
{1}, {T}, Remove Thran Foundry from the game: Target player shuffles his
or her graveyard into his or her library.

I killed one of his creatues, and it went to his graveyard, he uses the
sigil's ability, in response i use the foundry's ability.
That's where we start to disagree. He says he can re-use the sigil's
ability so he gets his creature back to his hand before the foundry
resolves.
I say he can't do that because the use of the sigil's ability is only
allowed once, when a creature is put into the user's graveyard, and not
multiple times for the same creature.

Who is right ?

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

M.G.Palmer <SatoshiUrotsukidoji@gmx.de> wrote:

> Hello !
>
> Card Name: Sigil of the New Dawn
> Card Color: W
> Mana Cost: 3W
> Type & Class: Enchantment
> Pow/Tou:
> Card Text: Whenever a creature is put into your graveyard from play,
> you may pay 1W. If you do, return that card to your hand.
>
>
> A situation accured lately where my opponent and me werent shure how to
> handle it. He had the Sigil in play and I had a Thran Foundry in play.
>
> Thran Foundry
> {1}
> Artifact
> {1}, {T}, Remove Thran Foundry from the game: Target player shuffles his
> or her graveyard into his or her library.
>
> I killed one of his creatues, and it went to his graveyard, he uses the
> sigil's ability, in response i use the foundry's ability.
> That's where we start to disagree. He says he can re-use the sigil's
> ability so he gets his creature back to his hand before the foundry
> resolves.
> I say he can't do that because the use of the sigil's ability is only
> allowed once, when a creature is put into the user's graveyard, and not
> multiple times for the same creature.

410.6. An ability triggers only once each time its trigger event occurs.
However, it can trigger repeatedly if one event contains multiple
occurrences. See also rule 410.9.
Example: A permanent has an ability whose trigger condition reads,
"Whenever a land is put into a graveyard from play, . . . ." If someone
plays a spell that destroys all lands, the ability will trigger once for
each land put into the graveyard during the spell's resolution.

Whenever a creature goes to the opponent's graveyard, the ability of
Sigil of the New Dawn triggers one (1) time. When that resolves is the
only time the opponent gets the option of paying {1}{W}. For clarity,
I'll assume that your opponent is the active player in the following.
(This doesn't make much difference.)

First, to make the baseline clear, I'll show what would happen without
the Thran Foundry.

0. For some reason, the opponent's creature goes to his graveyard as
part of something resolving. This triggers the ability of Sigil of the
New Dawn.
1. Your opponent would get priority, but the triggered ability goes on
the stack.
2. Your opponent gets priority and passes. (There is no activated
ability on Sigil of the New Dawn, so this is not a time he can make any
decision related to it.)
3. You get priority and pass.
4. Your opponent's triggered ability "you may pay {1}{W}. If you do,
return that card to your hand." resolves. If he chooses at this time to
pay {1}{W}, the card is returned to his hand. If he doesn't, it isn't.
5. Your opponent gets priority.

And with the Thran Foundry:

0. For some reason, the opponent's creature goes to his graveyard as
part of something resolving. This triggers the ability of Sigil of the
New Dawn.
1. Your opponent would get priority, but the triggered ability goes on
the stack.
2. Your opponent gets priority and passes. (There is no activated
ability on Sigil of the New Dawn, so this is not a time he can make any
decision related to it.)
3. You get priority and play the ability of Thran Foundry. Your
opponent is the target. Note that your opponent has not yet had a
chance to "use the Sigil's ability".
4. You get priority and pass.
5. Your opponent gets priority and passes. (There is still no activated
ability on Sigil of the New Dawn.)
6. The ability of your Thran's Foundry resolves. Your opponent shuffles
his graveyard into his library.
7. Your opponent gets priority and passes.
8. You get priority and pass.
9. Your opponent's triggered ability "you may pay {1}{W}. If you do,
return that card to your hand." resolves. If he chooses at this time to
pay {1}{W}, nothing happens since the card is not in his graveyard. If
he doesn't pay, nothing still happens.
10. Your opponent gets priority.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

M.G.Palmer <SatoshiUrotsukidoji@gmx.de> wrote:
>Sigil of the New Dawn >3W >Enchantment
>Whenever a creature is put into your graveyard from play,
>you may pay 1W. If you do, return that card to your hand.

Triggered ability; the payment is done on resolution. The card only goes
to your hand if it's still in the graveyard at the time you pay.

>A situation accured lately where my opponent and me werent shure how to
>handle it. He had the Sigil in play and I had a Thran Foundry in play.
>
>Thran Foundry >{1} >Artifact
>{1}, {T}, Remove Thran Foundry from the game: Target player shuffles his
>or her graveyard into his or her library.

You can respond to the Sigil triggered ability with the Foundry's activated
ability (or a Withered Wretch's ability, or Feldon's Cane's ability, for other
examples, though not a Gaea's Blessing spell because that's a Sorcery); if
you do and remove the creature card in question from that graveyard, the
Sigil will still resolve and still let him pay 1W, but won't do anything else
even if he does pay. The Sigil's effect can't "find" the creature card if
it leaves the graveyard before resolution.

>I killed one of his creatues, and it went to his graveyard, he uses the
>sigil's ability, in response i use the foundry's ability.
>That's where we start to disagree. He says he can re-use the sigil's
>ability so he gets his creature back to his hand before the foundry resolves.

Nope. He can't "use" the Sigil's ability at ALL - it's not activated, he
can't play it. It -triggers- off of a specific event, he has no control over
that; it goes onto the stack after triggering. To trigger again the event
- "a creature is put into your graveyard from play" - has to occur again.

>I say he can't do that because the use of the sigil's ability is only
>allowed once, when a creature is put into the user's graveyard, and not
>multiple times for the same creature.

Right. If several creatures go to the graveyard at once it will trigger for
each one ... once. It won't EVER trigger for the same creature more than once.

(Why? Because once a creature goes to the graveyard, it stops being a
creature AND if the card comes back to play it's a "different" creature to
boot. The Sigil could trigger again off the "new" creature, of course - but
it's not the same creature...)

>Who is right ?

You are correct. The technical terms for why you're correct involve how
triggered abilities work; the Sigil's ability is triggered, because it
starts with "when", "whenever", or "at".

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.