Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)
"chung" <chunglau@covad.net> wrote in message
news:crcsm302rfr@news2.newsguy.com...
> Harry Lavo wrote:
> > Just did this experiment.
> >
> > Took a copy of Khachaturian's Gayne Ballet Suite out of its jacket.
This is
> > a "$2.00 special" classic Everest recording from the late '50's. As
such it
> > is a bit bass-shy, and slightly "tinny" in sound, as was the wont when
> > stereo cutters were new. I've played this disk once since
purchasing...from
> > the wear and tear on the cover it was hardly kept in virgin condition by
its
> > previous owner. The record had not been "Lasted" by me as I usually do
> > eventually with records whose sound and performance I like and wish to
> > preserve.
> >
> > Put it on the phono and listened to about 2/3rd's of side one. One
> > noticeable noise..a two-groove-repeated "pop" about an inch in...other
than
> > that I could not hear noise..even between tracks. So I turned on my
Marantz
> > professional CD recorder, which is calibrated to the
> > phono/preamp/headamp/cartridge so that most LP's hit "0" peak without
> > further adjustment. Sure enough, the peaks were just lighting the "0"
db
> > indicator. Got to the next between tracks silent groove...the noise
level
> > dropped to the -50 db level, with one slight flicker of the "-40" db
level.
> > The noise was virtually inaudible, even standing beside one of the
speakers.
> > This is pretty typical of what I experience with my records with my
setup.
> > I must say that a great deal of it has to do with a properly set up line
> > contact stylus...I can put the record on my second turntable with an .02
x
> > ..07" elliptical Shure stylus and get much more audible noise.
>
> I wouldn't call noise that is -50dB from peak "virtually inaudible".
> More likely, you are accustomed to that level of noise from vinyl. Note
> that the modern CD has better than 90dB signal-to-noise ratio.
>
Here we go with your "theoreticals" again. 50db is a very large dynamic
range above any realistic noise floor, in reality. For example, in a
concert hall with 40db of ambient noise, 50db gets you to 90db, a reasonably
loud performance level. Moreover, since it is possible to hear details like
decay and ambience well below the noise level, the actual musical impact is
substantially more.
Nobody is arguing that CD's aren't quieter than LP's, only that on a good
rig well cared-for LP's can have a noise level that is simply not obtrusive,
as so many here seem to feel it is.
> >
> > The experience above is why S888Wheel keeps saying you must take both
the
> > quality of the setup and the quality of the records themselves into
account
> > when deciding whether vinyl noise is present in bothersome amounts. For
> > him, me, and many others, it simply isn't. And I suggest that to those
for
> > whom it is, that a good record cleaning, and a top-quality cartridge
with
> > line-contact stylus properly adjusted for VTA will doubtless improve
things
> > dramatically.
>
> For sure, there is less noise from clean vinyl, and no one is arguing
> against that. But still, the conclusion that noise cannot be heard,
> given your -50dB measurement, seems to indicate a certain
> less-than-golden-eared capability from a high-end audiophile...
>
Sorry, but my left ear hearing extends out to 18khz even at my age.
> Whether that noise is bothersome clearly depends on the listener.
> Michael was simply pointing out that the noise *is* there.
No, he was pointing out that it was *there* at an obtrusive level.
"chung" <chunglau@covad.net> wrote in message
news:crcsm302rfr@news2.newsguy.com...
> Harry Lavo wrote:
> > Just did this experiment.
> >
> > Took a copy of Khachaturian's Gayne Ballet Suite out of its jacket.
This is
> > a "$2.00 special" classic Everest recording from the late '50's. As
such it
> > is a bit bass-shy, and slightly "tinny" in sound, as was the wont when
> > stereo cutters were new. I've played this disk once since
purchasing...from
> > the wear and tear on the cover it was hardly kept in virgin condition by
its
> > previous owner. The record had not been "Lasted" by me as I usually do
> > eventually with records whose sound and performance I like and wish to
> > preserve.
> >
> > Put it on the phono and listened to about 2/3rd's of side one. One
> > noticeable noise..a two-groove-repeated "pop" about an inch in...other
than
> > that I could not hear noise..even between tracks. So I turned on my
Marantz
> > professional CD recorder, which is calibrated to the
> > phono/preamp/headamp/cartridge so that most LP's hit "0" peak without
> > further adjustment. Sure enough, the peaks were just lighting the "0"
db
> > indicator. Got to the next between tracks silent groove...the noise
level
> > dropped to the -50 db level, with one slight flicker of the "-40" db
level.
> > The noise was virtually inaudible, even standing beside one of the
speakers.
> > This is pretty typical of what I experience with my records with my
setup.
> > I must say that a great deal of it has to do with a properly set up line
> > contact stylus...I can put the record on my second turntable with an .02
x
> > ..07" elliptical Shure stylus and get much more audible noise.
>
> I wouldn't call noise that is -50dB from peak "virtually inaudible".
> More likely, you are accustomed to that level of noise from vinyl. Note
> that the modern CD has better than 90dB signal-to-noise ratio.
>
Here we go with your "theoreticals" again. 50db is a very large dynamic
range above any realistic noise floor, in reality. For example, in a
concert hall with 40db of ambient noise, 50db gets you to 90db, a reasonably
loud performance level. Moreover, since it is possible to hear details like
decay and ambience well below the noise level, the actual musical impact is
substantially more.
Nobody is arguing that CD's aren't quieter than LP's, only that on a good
rig well cared-for LP's can have a noise level that is simply not obtrusive,
as so many here seem to feel it is.
> >
> > The experience above is why S888Wheel keeps saying you must take both
the
> > quality of the setup and the quality of the records themselves into
account
> > when deciding whether vinyl noise is present in bothersome amounts. For
> > him, me, and many others, it simply isn't. And I suggest that to those
for
> > whom it is, that a good record cleaning, and a top-quality cartridge
with
> > line-contact stylus properly adjusted for VTA will doubtless improve
things
> > dramatically.
>
> For sure, there is less noise from clean vinyl, and no one is arguing
> against that. But still, the conclusion that noise cannot be heard,
> given your -50dB measurement, seems to indicate a certain
> less-than-golden-eared capability from a high-end audiophile...
>
Sorry, but my left ear hearing extends out to 18khz even at my age.
> Whether that noise is bothersome clearly depends on the listener.
> Michael was simply pointing out that the noise *is* there.
No, he was pointing out that it was *there* at an obtrusive level.
?
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