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"chung" <chunglau@covad.net> wrote in message
news:crcsm302rfr@news2.newsguy.com...
> Harry Lavo wrote:
> > Just did this experiment.
> >
> > Took a copy of Khachaturian's Gayne Ballet Suite out of its jacket.
This is
> > a "$2.00 special" classic Everest recording from the late '50's. As
such it
> > is a bit bass-shy, and slightly "tinny" in sound, as was the wont when
> > stereo cutters were new. I've played this disk once since
purchasing...from
> > the wear and tear on the cover it was hardly kept in virgin condition by
its
> > previous owner. The record had not been "Lasted" by me as I usually do
> > eventually with records whose sound and performance I like and wish to
> > preserve.
> >
> > Put it on the phono and listened to about 2/3rd's of side one. One
> > noticeable noise..a two-groove-repeated "pop" about an inch in...other
than
> > that I could not hear noise..even between tracks. So I turned on my
Marantz
> > professional CD recorder, which is calibrated to the
> > phono/preamp/headamp/cartridge so that most LP's hit "0" peak without
> > further adjustment. Sure enough, the peaks were just lighting the "0"
db
> > indicator. Got to the next between tracks silent groove...the noise
level
> > dropped to the -50 db level, with one slight flicker of the "-40" db
level.
> > The noise was virtually inaudible, even standing beside one of the
speakers.
> > This is pretty typical of what I experience with my records with my
setup.
> > I must say that a great deal of it has to do with a properly set up line
> > contact stylus...I can put the record on my second turntable with an .02
x
> > ..07" elliptical Shure stylus and get much more audible noise.
>
> I wouldn't call noise that is -50dB from peak "virtually inaudible".
> More likely, you are accustomed to that level of noise from vinyl. Note
> that the modern CD has better than 90dB signal-to-noise ratio.
>

Here we go with your "theoreticals" again. 50db is a very large dynamic
range above any realistic noise floor, in reality. For example, in a
concert hall with 40db of ambient noise, 50db gets you to 90db, a reasonably
loud performance level. Moreover, since it is possible to hear details like
decay and ambience well below the noise level, the actual musical impact is
substantially more.

Nobody is arguing that CD's aren't quieter than LP's, only that on a good
rig well cared-for LP's can have a noise level that is simply not obtrusive,
as so many here seem to feel it is.



> >
> > The experience above is why S888Wheel keeps saying you must take both
the
> > quality of the setup and the quality of the records themselves into
account
> > when deciding whether vinyl noise is present in bothersome amounts. For
> > him, me, and many others, it simply isn't. And I suggest that to those
for
> > whom it is, that a good record cleaning, and a top-quality cartridge
with
> > line-contact stylus properly adjusted for VTA will doubtless improve
things
> > dramatically.
>
> For sure, there is less noise from clean vinyl, and no one is arguing
> against that. But still, the conclusion that noise cannot be heard,
> given your -50dB measurement, seems to indicate a certain
> less-than-golden-eared capability from a high-end audiophile...
>

Sorry, but my left ear hearing extends out to 18khz even at my age.

> Whether that noise is bothersome clearly depends on the listener.
> Michael was simply pointing out that the noise *is* there.

No, he was pointing out that it was *there* at an obtrusive level.
 

chung

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Harry Lavo wrote:
> "chung" <chunglau@covad.net> wrote in message
> news:crcsm302rfr@news2.newsguy.com...
>> Harry Lavo wrote:
>> > Just did this experiment.
>> >
>> > Took a copy of Khachaturian's Gayne Ballet Suite out of its jacket.
> This is
>> > a "$2.00 special" classic Everest recording from the late '50's. As
> such it
>> > is a bit bass-shy, and slightly "tinny" in sound, as was the wont when
>> > stereo cutters were new. I've played this disk once since
> purchasing...from
>> > the wear and tear on the cover it was hardly kept in virgin condition by
> its
>> > previous owner. The record had not been "Lasted" by me as I usually do
>> > eventually with records whose sound and performance I like and wish to
>> > preserve.
>> >
>> > Put it on the phono and listened to about 2/3rd's of side one. One
>> > noticeable noise..a two-groove-repeated "pop" about an inch in...other
> than
>> > that I could not hear noise..even between tracks. So I turned on my
> Marantz
>> > professional CD recorder, which is calibrated to the
>> > phono/preamp/headamp/cartridge so that most LP's hit "0" peak without
>> > further adjustment. Sure enough, the peaks were just lighting the "0"
> db
>> > indicator. Got to the next between tracks silent groove...the noise
> level
>> > dropped to the -50 db level, with one slight flicker of the "-40" db
> level.
>> > The noise was virtually inaudible, even standing beside one of the
> speakers.
>> > This is pretty typical of what I experience with my records with my
> setup.
>> > I must say that a great deal of it has to do with a properly set up line
>> > contact stylus...I can put the record on my second turntable with an .02
> x
>> > ..07" elliptical Shure stylus and get much more audible noise.
>>
>> I wouldn't call noise that is -50dB from peak "virtually inaudible".
>> More likely, you are accustomed to that level of noise from vinyl. Note
>> that the modern CD has better than 90dB signal-to-noise ratio.
>>
>
> Here we go with your "theoreticals" again. 50db is a very large dynamic
> range above any realistic noise floor, in reality. For example, in a
> concert hall with 40db of ambient noise, 50db gets you to 90db, a reasonably
> loud performance level. Moreover, since it is possible to hear details like
> decay and ambience well below the noise level, the actual musical impact is
> substantially more.

No, these are not theoreticals; you provided that 50 dB measurement.
Noise floor that is only 50 dB down from peak is simply audible. It's
interesting how you said that 50 dB is a very large number, yet
SACD's/DVD-A's were often claimed by people like yourself to have an
advantage over CD because the former has 120 dB range or higher compared
to CD's 90+dB. Certainly there are people who believe that it is
necessary to have 120 dB range to capture live sound.

No one argues whether you can hear details into the noise or not. The
issue is whether that noise is audible.

By the way, a 50 dB S/N is insufficient to capture the dynamics of a
concert hall performance.

>
> Nobody is arguing that CD's aren't quieter than LP's, only that on a good
> rig well cared-for LP's can have a noise level that is simply not obtrusive,
> as so many here seem to feel it is.

Actually people here have said that vinylists have a high tolerance for
such noise. And of course, there are also people who are used to digital
who find the noise intrusive.

>
>
>
>> >
>> > The experience above is why S888Wheel keeps saying you must take both
> the
>> > quality of the setup and the quality of the records themselves into
> account
>> > when deciding whether vinyl noise is present in bothersome amounts. For
>> > him, me, and many others, it simply isn't. And I suggest that to those
> for
>> > whom it is, that a good record cleaning, and a top-quality cartridge
> with
>> > line-contact stylus properly adjusted for VTA will doubtless improve
> things
>> > dramatically.
>>
>> For sure, there is less noise from clean vinyl, and no one is arguing
>> against that. But still, the conclusion that noise cannot be heard,
>> given your -50dB measurement, seems to indicate a certain
>> less-than-golden-eared capability from a high-end audiophile...
>>
>
> Sorry, but my left ear hearing extends out to 18khz even at my age.

And yet -50dB noise is inaudible? And what about the right ear :) ?

>
>> Whether that noise is bothersome clearly depends on the listener.
>> Michael was simply pointing out that the noise *is* there.
>
> No, he was pointing out that it was *there* at an obtrusive level.

Actually, I looked at his posts carefully. He did not comment on whether
the noise is obtrusive to everyone or not; he just said that the noise
is visibly apparent when he uses his recording software. And in any
event, he certainly would be correct to feel that the noise was
obtrusive to him, if that's how he feels. And Mr. Wheel seems to think
that the noise would not be visibly apparent if better records/equipment
were used. And now you said that the noise is "virtually inaudible".
 
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On 4 Jan 2005 04:23:25 GMT, "Harry Lavo" <harry.lavo@rcn.com> wrote:

>"chung" <chunglau@covad.net> wrote in message
>news:crcsm302rfr@news2.newsguy.com...
>> Harry Lavo wrote:
>> >Sure enough, the peaks were just lighting the "0"db
>> > indicator. Got to the next between tracks silent groove...the noise level
>> > dropped to the -50 db level, with one slight flicker of the "-40" db level.
>> > The noise was virtually inaudible, even standing beside one of the speakers.
>> > This is pretty typical of what I experience with my records with my setup.
>> > I must say that a great deal of it has to do with a properly set up line
>> > contact stylus...I can put the record on my second turntable with an .02 x
>> > ..07" elliptical Shure stylus and get much more audible noise.
>>
>> I wouldn't call noise that is -50dB from peak "virtually inaudible".
>> More likely, you are accustomed to that level of noise from vinyl. Note
>> that the modern CD has better than 90dB signal-to-noise ratio.
>>
>Here we go with your "theoreticals" again. 50db is a very large dynamic
>range above any realistic noise floor, in reality. For example, in a
>concert hall with 40db of ambient noise, 50db gets you to 90db, a reasonably
>loud performance level. Moreover, since it is possible to hear details like
>decay and ambience well below the noise level, the actual musical impact is
>substantially more.
>
>Nobody is arguing that CD's aren't quieter than LP's, only that on a good
>rig well cared-for LP's can have a noise level that is simply not obtrusive,
>as so many here seem to feel it is.

I regard a 'silent groove' noise level only 50dB below peak level as
*definitely* obtrusive. Obviously, you don't, which is 'interesting'.

>> For sure, there is less noise from clean vinyl, and no one is arguing
>> against that. But still, the conclusion that noise cannot be heard,
>> given your -50dB measurement, seems to indicate a certain
>> less-than-golden-eared capability from a high-end audiophile...
>>
>Sorry, but my left ear hearing extends out to 18khz even at my age.

However, you claim that surface noise only 50dB below peak level is
'virtually inaudible'. Interesting................

>> Whether that noise is bothersome clearly depends on the listener.
>> Michael was simply pointing out that the noise *is* there.
>
>No, he was pointing out that it was *there* at an obtrusive level.

It *is*, but vinylphiles seem happy to ignore its existence. Some of
us have higher standards.

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering
 
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On 31 Dec 2004 16:09:12 GMT, B&D <bromo@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>On 12/30/04 11:17 AM, in article cr19m60bc9@news3.newsguy.com, "Stewart
>Pinkerton" <patent3@dircon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>> It is not the same for all records and all TT rigs. That was my point.
>>
>> But it is *never* lower than 60-65dB below peak level on other than
>> direct-cut LPs, which is the *real* point.
>
>Since I think I recall that you said that the human ear has difficulty
>discerning distortion 40dB down - this would place it near the threshhold of
>human hearing, especially if played at sane volumes?

While the music is playing at peak level, yes - that kind of masking
effect is the basis of codecs such as Dolby Digital and MP3. However,
when the music is playing more quietly, the sensitivity of the ear
adjusts, and surface noise is often less than 20dB below the average
signal level, even without rests and fadeouts. With CD made from
digital master tapes the noise floor can remain at least 40dB below
the quiet musical passages - given good microphone technique.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering
 
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