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Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)
On 12/29/04 11:14 AM, in article cqul6202pti@news3.newsguy.com, "michael"
<pm279@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> S888Wheel wrote:
>
>>> From: michael pm279@bellsouth.net
>
>>> I snipped out most of the thread becuase anyone interested can go back
>>> and read. This back and forth is getting unmanagable. Anyhow, to
>>> recap: I claimed that when recording from a turntable to a CD there
>>> exists alot of analog grundge that is heard and is also shown
>>> graphically by VU meters. This stuff is non-musical noise. Now it
>>> appears that you are arguing the validity of this?
>
>> No I am arguing against the implied global implications. Heck one can find
>> any
>> number of CDs that have "grundge" in the signal. It doesn't say anything
>> about
>> the medium just something about that CD.
>
> NO, NO, NO! Don't mix up two different ideas. Maybe I am at fault for
> not explaining this clearly. I am talking about inherent vinyl noise.
> This has nothing to do with any "grundge" recorded on a CD as part of
> the program material, nor does it have anything to do with badly
> recorded CDs that might sound harsh, or are otherwise flawed. Vinyl
> noise is an artifact present on EVERY Lp played with a stylus. Some Lps
> are worse than others, but its origin is in the stylus-groove interface
> and manifests regardless of whatever program signal is present. There
> is no comparable digital artifact because, with properly applied digital
> techniques, the noise floor drops to essentially zero.
Yup the quantization noise of CD is 96dB down, and the native noise floor of
the CD player is likely higher than that. The source material if from
analog is likely to be no better than 70dB, and if recorded digitally with
standard equipment is likely 24 bit/96kHz, making the acoustics and ambient
noise of the recording environment much bigger factors to the "pristine"
sound - which is what one ideally like.
Records have a lot of surface noise - and some records are better than
others, and some stylii are better at rejecting it than others - but the
most amazing thing is that some people hear right through the stuff, while
others are driven out of the room by it. It is amazing how the brain can
"ignore" this type of noise. Since it is a function of the brain
("software/hardware" if you will) it really depends on the person, and you
may be able to measure it, though it may not matter to the people who like
the medium, because after a short period of time, they aren't hearing it
anymore - and the things the LP does right (and it does a few things right)
is being listened to.
Sure, this is additive distortion, but it is, for many, an easily ignored
additive phenomenon.
>> If you want to know what the limitations of the medium are and not just the
>> limitations of your stuff I suggest you use a Rockport TT or Forsell that is
>> properly isolated or even a fully decked out Walker Procenium Gold.
>
> I don't care what turntable/arm/cartridge one uses. Lp surface noise
> will be audible, especially when monitoring using headphones. Obviously
> some systems may contribute additional mechanism related noise that
> others may not, but this, again, is not what I'm speaking and writing about.
Sure - but it may not be perceptible without concentration after a brief
period of time listening by a large number of people.
On 12/29/04 11:14 AM, in article cqul6202pti@news3.newsguy.com, "michael"
<pm279@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> S888Wheel wrote:
>
>>> From: michael pm279@bellsouth.net
>
>>> I snipped out most of the thread becuase anyone interested can go back
>>> and read. This back and forth is getting unmanagable. Anyhow, to
>>> recap: I claimed that when recording from a turntable to a CD there
>>> exists alot of analog grundge that is heard and is also shown
>>> graphically by VU meters. This stuff is non-musical noise. Now it
>>> appears that you are arguing the validity of this?
>
>> No I am arguing against the implied global implications. Heck one can find
>> any
>> number of CDs that have "grundge" in the signal. It doesn't say anything
>> about
>> the medium just something about that CD.
>
> NO, NO, NO! Don't mix up two different ideas. Maybe I am at fault for
> not explaining this clearly. I am talking about inherent vinyl noise.
> This has nothing to do with any "grundge" recorded on a CD as part of
> the program material, nor does it have anything to do with badly
> recorded CDs that might sound harsh, or are otherwise flawed. Vinyl
> noise is an artifact present on EVERY Lp played with a stylus. Some Lps
> are worse than others, but its origin is in the stylus-groove interface
> and manifests regardless of whatever program signal is present. There
> is no comparable digital artifact because, with properly applied digital
> techniques, the noise floor drops to essentially zero.
Yup the quantization noise of CD is 96dB down, and the native noise floor of
the CD player is likely higher than that. The source material if from
analog is likely to be no better than 70dB, and if recorded digitally with
standard equipment is likely 24 bit/96kHz, making the acoustics and ambient
noise of the recording environment much bigger factors to the "pristine"
sound - which is what one ideally like.
Records have a lot of surface noise - and some records are better than
others, and some stylii are better at rejecting it than others - but the
most amazing thing is that some people hear right through the stuff, while
others are driven out of the room by it. It is amazing how the brain can
"ignore" this type of noise. Since it is a function of the brain
("software/hardware" if you will) it really depends on the person, and you
may be able to measure it, though it may not matter to the people who like
the medium, because after a short period of time, they aren't hearing it
anymore - and the things the LP does right (and it does a few things right)
is being listened to.
Sure, this is additive distortion, but it is, for many, an easily ignored
additive phenomenon.
>> If you want to know what the limitations of the medium are and not just the
>> limitations of your stuff I suggest you use a Rockport TT or Forsell that is
>> properly isolated or even a fully decked out Walker Procenium Gold.
>
> I don't care what turntable/arm/cartridge one uses. Lp surface noise
> will be audible, especially when monitoring using headphones. Obviously
> some systems may contribute additional mechanism related noise that
> others may not, but this, again, is not what I'm speaking and writing about.
Sure - but it may not be perceptible without concentration after a brief
period of time listening by a large number of people.