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Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider,alt.fan.lara-croft (More info?)

*pops in briefly to dump his news*

Reading over some of the most recent posts....I'm shocked! And you consider
yourselves TR-fans like myself? You should be news savy!

Anyway, all in jest....BUT!

Just did some TR trawling and Eidos have put the out the feelers for TR7
already:


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Date: 15/09/2004 (source: Eurogamer)
Tomb Raider 7 to be unveiled this autumn
Crystal Dynamics' Tomb Raider game "will be unveiled this autumn and is
scheduled for release in the fourth quarter of the current financial year,"
Eidos told the City today, as insiders claimed that the version they had
seen was a lot more responsive and closer to the series' original ideology
than previous sequels.

Apparently the new look Lara Croft, redeveloped by Crystal Dynamics after
UK-based Core Design's Angel of Darkness title was so poorly received, is no
long hamstrung by the 'turning circle' that afflicted previous Laras, and is
a lot less fiddly in general.

We were also told that Lara's generally a lot more responsive and athletic
when you get your hands on her, prancing about, grabbing onto things and
swinging around with consummate ease. We hadn't been particularly convinced
by executives' claims that the game is making "exciting progress", but the
consensus is starting to pique our interest.

With Tomb Raider 7 now set to be unveiled within the next few months, and
set to make its playable debut at E3 next May as Eidos tries to get the game
out before the end of June - the end of its financial year - it shouldn't be
too long before we get to put their claims to the test.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I got this from www.tombnews.com


It sounds...scary. Too soon! Too damn soon!
But....hmmm. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

The major problem with the TR franchise, namely Eidos' profit-driven
destruction mongering, doesn't seem to have been addressed. Yet again
they're placing hopes on release dates and sales purely upon the financial
market. Not on the intelligence of consumers, or at least on they're ability
to discern what's playable and what isn't.
Sure, Eidos wants to make profits, and that's what games are about - it's a
consumer environment. But it's still disheartening to see that Eidos have
said they want it released by the end of the financial year, which implies
that they do want it released in time for financial end-of-year balancing
and profit reporting.

Sad, sad, sad, sad.

Oh well...I've got Silent Hill now to replace the hole that TombRaider once
filled.

--
---
---
DC has come in here because the Howard G'ment is a crock of...
http://spiltink.alphalink.com.au
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider,alt.fan.lara-croft (More info?)

"Dragoncarer" <dc@haha.noflames> wrote in message
news:415fb8db@news.alphalink.com.au
> *pops in briefly to dump his news*
>
> Reading over some of the most recent posts....I'm shocked! And you
> consider
> yourselves TR-fans like myself? You should be news savy!
>
> Anyway, all in jest....BUT!
>
> Just did some TR trawling and Eidos have put the out the feelers for
> TR7
> already:
>
>
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> Date: 15/09/2004 (source: Eurogamer)
> Tomb Raider 7 to be unveiled this autumn
> Crystal Dynamics' Tomb Raider game "will be unveiled this autumn and
> is
> scheduled for release in the fourth quarter of the current financial
> year,"
> Eidos told the City today, as insiders claimed that the version they
> had
> seen was a lot more responsive and closer to the series' original
> ideology
> than previous sequels.
>
> Apparently the new look Lara Croft, redeveloped by Crystal Dynamics
> after
> UK-based Core Design's Angel of Darkness title was so poorly received,
> is no
> long hamstrung by the 'turning circle' that afflicted previous Laras,
> and is
> a lot less fiddly in general.
>
> We were also told that Lara's generally a lot more responsive and
> athletic
> when you get your hands on her, prancing about, grabbing onto things
> and
> swinging around with consummate ease. We hadn't been particularly
> convinced
> by executives' claims that the game is making "exciting progress", but
> the
> consensus is starting to pique our interest.
>
> With Tomb Raider 7 now set to be unveiled within the next few months,
> and
> set to make its playable debut at E3 next May as Eidos tries to get
> the game
> out before the end of June - the end of its financial year - it
> shouldn't be
> too long before we get to put their claims to the test.
>
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> I got this from www.tombnews.com
>
>
> It sounds...scary. Too soon! Too damn soon!
> But....hmmm. I guess we'll have to wait and see.
>
> The major problem with the TR franchise, namely Eidos' profit-driven
> destruction mongering, doesn't seem to have been addressed. Yet again
> they're placing hopes on release dates and sales purely upon the
> financial
> market. Not on the intelligence of consumers, or at least on they're
> ability
> to discern what's playable and what isn't.
> Sure, Eidos wants to make profits, and that's what games are about -
> it's a
> consumer environment. But it's still disheartening to see that Eidos
> have
> said they want it released by the end of the financial year, which
> implies
> that they do want it released in time for financial end-of-year
> balancing
> and profit reporting.
>
> Sad, sad, sad, sad.
>
> Oh well...I've got Silent Hill now to replace the hole that TombRaider
> once
> filled.
>
> --
> ---
> ---
> DC has come in here because the Howard G'ment is a crock of...
> http://spiltink.alphalink.com.au

There are actually several articles in that column that merit reading.
Including several more concerned with Tombraider 7. :) Thanks for the
heads up DC. I've dropped that site in my TR faves.
McG.
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider,alt.fan.lara-croft (More info?)

Dragoncarer wrote:

<snipped bits>

> But it's still disheartening to see that Eidos have
> said they want it released by the end of the financial year, which implies
> that they do want it released in time for financial end-of-year balancing
> and profit reporting.

This would not surprise me, especially after their recent performance.

In August they warned that they would fail to make a profit in "this"
financial year http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3533084.stm Although
the figures I found were for year ended June 2004. Looks like they made
a loss of 2.9 million pounds after a profit the year before of 19
million. This is despite Hitman: Contracts selling 1.7m units, and TRAOD
1m units.

Mark.

DISCLAIMER: I'm not an accountant, so I could have picked the wrong
figures. I found the info here:

http://corporate.eidos.co.uk/eidos/uploads/press/EIDOS_prelims0604.pdf
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider,alt.fan.lara-croft (More info?)

tomb 7...it better be alot better than the angel of darkness, i thought this
game was poor in the extreme,to easy by far,..not a challenge,...a very
rushed out run of the mill affair,..if they want anymore money from me itll
av to be as good a game as t2 ,.
"Liability Grimwood" <spamtrapmdg@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:415fe925$1_3@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com...
> Dragoncarer wrote:
>
> <snipped bits>
>
> > But it's still disheartening to see that Eidos have
> > said they want it released by the end of the financial year, which
implies
> > that they do want it released in time for financial end-of-year
balancing
> > and profit reporting.
>
> This would not surprise me, especially after their recent performance.
>
> In August they warned that they would fail to make a profit in "this"
> financial year http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3533084.stm Although
> the figures I found were for year ended June 2004. Looks like they made
> a loss of 2.9 million pounds after a profit the year before of 19
> million. This is despite Hitman: Contracts selling 1.7m units, and TRAOD
> 1m units.
>
> Mark.
>
> DISCLAIMER: I'm not an accountant, so I could have picked the wrong
> figures. I found the info here:
>
> http://corporate.eidos.co.uk/eidos/uploads/press/EIDOS_prelims0604.pdf
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider,alt.fan.lara-croft (More info?)

=>> The runes were cast, the portents thundered and then "Dragoncarer"
warbled on about "TR7 news!" in alt.games.tombraider <<=

> Just did some TR trawling and Eidos have put the out the feelers for TR7
> already:
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Date: 15/09/2004 (source: Eurogamer)
> Tomb Raider 7 to be unveiled this autumn
> Crystal Dynamics' Tomb Raider game "will be unveiled this autumn and is
> scheduled for release in the fourth quarter of the current financial year,"
> Eidos told the City today, as insiders claimed that the version they had
> seen was a lot more responsive and closer to the series' original ideology
> than previous sequels.

Hmm, the original ideology was a 3D version of some of the platformers
of the time... Taking it back to TR1-simple level of gameplay would be
a mistake IMO.

> Apparently the new look Lara Croft, redeveloped by Crystal Dynamics after
> UK-based Core Design's Angel of Darkness title was so poorly received, is no
> long hamstrung by the 'turning circle' that afflicted previous Laras, and is
> a lot less fiddly in general.

Meaning they've done away with the fixed chasecam and gone for the
camera-relative controls instead? Ooh, yuck. All it needed was for the
sidestepping keys to be mapped to the left and right buttons + turn by
mouse/stick.

> We were also told that Lara's generally a lot more responsive and athletic
> when you get your hands on her, prancing about, grabbing onto things and
> swinging around with consummate ease. We hadn't been particularly convinced
> by executives' claims that the game is making "exciting progress", but the
> consensus is starting to pique our interest.
>
> With Tomb Raider 7 now set to be unveiled within the next few months, and
> set to make its playable debut at E3 next May as Eidos tries to get the game
> out before the end of June - the end of its financial year - it shouldn't be
> too long before we get to put their claims to the test.

Sounds way too soon to have a new one coming out. To spit one out this
fast Crystal Dynamics would have to have just stuck Lara into one of
their own inhouse engines, and then built the game around it from there.
No trouble so far, but what about things level content and plot, etc?
Without spending time on stuff like that it's probably going to be a bit
short in the ambience department: similar level after similar level of
generic designs/sound/graphics.

Coupled with that "closer the series's orignal ideology" quote above I
think we're looking at it being more like the old platformer games TR
was originally based on... you know --the ones that were getting so
stale before Core Design decided to put it in 3D...

So will TR7 feel like an exciting continuous adventure or a
lumped-together collection of platform puzzle levels?

> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> I got this from www.tombnews.com
>
> It sounds...scary. Too soon! Too damn soon!
> But....hmmm. I guess we'll have to wait and see.
>
> The major problem with the TR franchise, namely Eidos' profit-driven
> destruction mongering, doesn't seem to have been addressed. Yet again
> they're placing hopes on release dates and sales purely upon the financial
> market. Not on the intelligence of consumers, or at least on they're ability
> to discern what's playable and what isn't.
> Sure, Eidos wants to make profits, and that's what games are about - it's a
> consumer environment. But it's still disheartening to see that Eidos have
> said they want it released by the end of the financial year, which implies
> that they do want it released in time for financial end-of-year balancing
> and profit reporting.
>
> Sad, sad, sad, sad.

snark^view: it'll be a good solid playable game but with none of the TR
ambience of old -- ie., there'll be a model that looks like Lara in the
middle of the screen that'll have a few of her signature moves but
damned if it'll feel like TR anymore.

There is a slight 1% chance they'll have somehow basically made a 3D
version of Deus Ex, complete with its RPG style complexity, and with
Lara's ghosts/monsters/psychic/aliens/urban legend enhanced-world built
around it, but I wouldn't hold my breath...

CrystalD ever put out level editors? :)

> Oh well...I've got Silent Hill now to replace the hole that TombRaider once
> filled.

Almost finished Beyond Good and Evil myself. Got hooked on the demo
once I reached the rastafarian rhinos. That and the steady 4+ hours a
day of Rome: Total War for the last week has me busy on the gaming
front... Ave Caeser! Lucratori de Salutaut![1] I've run a review up
for GP but basically, in one sentence: it's Civ3 on steroids. Seriously
addictive stuff.


[1] Hail Caesar! Those about to get rich quick salute you! -- from that
historical tome _Asterix and the Black Gold_.

--
Hours spent gaming last week: 40 Online/Single player: 6
Last game(s) finished: Fallout1 (nuked The Master)
Currently playing: RomeTW %%%%%% BeyondG&E %%% H&D2 %
Games on wishlist: HL2, Stalker, WoW,
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider,alt.fan.lara-croft (More info?)

"snark^" <snarkamedes@tulgeywook.org> wrote in message
news:vpcam01hcg5gq76cjsp9pa5kfmgmh1f8kp@4ax.com
> =>> The runes were cast, the portents thundered and then "Dragoncarer"
> warbled on about "TR7 news!" in alt.games.tombraider <<=
>
>> Just did some TR trawling and Eidos have put the out the feelers for
>> TR7
>> already:
>> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>> Date: 15/09/2004 (source: Eurogamer)
>> Tomb Raider 7 to be unveiled this autumn
>> Crystal Dynamics' Tomb Raider game "will be unveiled this autumn and
>> is
>> scheduled for release in the fourth quarter of the current financial
>> year,"
>> Eidos told the City today, as insiders claimed that the version they
>> had
>> seen was a lot more responsive and closer to the series' original
>> ideology
>> than previous sequels.
>
> Hmm, the original ideology was a 3D version of some of the platformers
> of the time... Taking it back to TR1-simple level of gameplay would
> be
> a mistake IMO.
>
>> Apparently the new look Lara Croft, redeveloped by Crystal Dynamics
>> after
>> UK-based Core Design's Angel of Darkness title was so poorly
>> received, is no
>> long hamstrung by the 'turning circle' that afflicted previous Laras,
>> and is
>> a lot less fiddly in general.
>
> Meaning they've done away with the fixed chasecam and gone for the
> camera-relative controls instead? Ooh, yuck. All it needed was for
> the
> sidestepping keys to be mapped to the left and right buttons + turn by
> mouse/stick.
>
>> We were also told that Lara's generally a lot more responsive and
>> athletic
>> when you get your hands on her, prancing about, grabbing onto things
>> and
>> swinging around with consummate ease. We hadn't been particularly
>> convinced
>> by executives' claims that the game is making "exciting progress",
>> but the
>> consensus is starting to pique our interest.
>>
>> With Tomb Raider 7 now set to be unveiled within the next few months,
>> and
>> set to make its playable debut at E3 next May as Eidos tries to get
>> the game
>> out before the end of June - the end of its financial year - it
>> shouldn't be
>> too long before we get to put their claims to the test.
>
> Sounds way too soon to have a new one coming out. To spit one out
> this
> fast Crystal Dynamics would have to have just stuck Lara into one of
> their own inhouse engines, and then built the game around it from
> there.
> No trouble so far, but what about things level content and plot, etc?
> Without spending time on stuff like that it's probably going to be a
> bit
> short in the ambience department: similar level after similar level of
> generic designs/sound/graphics.
>
> Coupled with that "closer the series's orignal ideology" quote above I
> think we're looking at it being more like the old platformer games TR
> was originally based on... you know --the ones that were getting so
> stale before Core Design decided to put it in 3D...
>
> So will TR7 feel like an exciting continuous adventure or a
> lumped-together collection of platform puzzle levels?
>
>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>> I got this from www.tombnews.com
>>
>> It sounds...scary. Too soon! Too damn soon!
>> But....hmmm. I guess we'll have to wait and see.
>>
>> The major problem with the TR franchise, namely Eidos' profit-driven
>> destruction mongering, doesn't seem to have been addressed. Yet again
>> they're placing hopes on release dates and sales purely upon the
>> financial
>> market. Not on the intelligence of consumers, or at least on they're
>> ability
>> to discern what's playable and what isn't.
>> Sure, Eidos wants to make profits, and that's what games are about -
>> it's a
>> consumer environment. But it's still disheartening to see that Eidos
>> have
>> said they want it released by the end of the financial year, which
>> implies
>> that they do want it released in time for financial end-of-year
>> balancing
>> and profit reporting.
>>
>> Sad, sad, sad, sad.
>
> snark^view: it'll be a good solid playable game but with none of the
> TR
> ambience of old -- ie., there'll be a model that looks like Lara in
> the
> middle of the screen that'll have a few of her signature moves but
> damned if it'll feel like TR anymore.
>
> There is a slight 1% chance they'll have somehow basically made a 3D
> version of Deus Ex, complete with its RPG style complexity, and with
> Lara's ghosts/monsters/psychic/aliens/urban legend enhanced-world
> built
> around it, but I wouldn't hold my breath...
>
> CrystalD ever put out level editors? :)
>
>> Oh well...I've got Silent Hill now to replace the hole that
>> TombRaider once
>> filled.
>
> Almost finished Beyond Good and Evil myself. Got hooked on the demo
> once I reached the rastafarian rhinos. That and the steady 4+ hours a
> day of Rome: Total War for the last week has me busy on the gaming
> front... Ave Caeser! Lucratori de Salutaut![1] I've run a review up
> for GP but basically, in one sentence: it's Civ3 on steroids.
> Seriously
> addictive stuff.
>
>
> [1] Hail Caesar! Those about to get rich quick salute you! -- from
> that
> historical tome _Asterix and the Black Gold_.
>
> --
> Hours spent gaming last week: 40 Online/Single player: 6
> Last game(s) finished: Fallout1 (nuked The Master)
> Currently playing: RomeTW %%%%%% BeyondG&E %%% H&D2 %
> Games on wishlist: HL2, Stalker, WoW,

Hey, is there any way that CD could have been handed the entire project,
engine, content, etc. ?
I mean that way, they get the pot Core was stewing with. And if they
fix up that game and tweak the engine, come up with some new locations
and TOMBS! then we might just have a worthwhile game :)
McG.
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider,alt.fan.lara-croft (More info?)

"Dragoncarer" <dc@haha.noflames> wrote in message
news:4165f6db@news.alphalink.com.au...


Sorry...CyD have utilised their Soul Reaver engine, not the Soul Caliber
engine.

Images of which can be seen here:

http://tinyurl.com/6pn8u

I'm a little worried. BUT! they were only starting with the engine...I guess
we'll have to wait till March '05 to see what they've done to our lovely
little vixen.
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider,alt.fan.lara-croft (More info?)

Dragoncarer wrote:

> Date: 15/09/2004 (source: Eurogamer)

My advise - take anything you read there with a both hands full of salt.

jB
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider,alt.fan.lara-croft (More info?)

=>> The runes were cast, the portents thundered and then "McGrandpa"
warbled on about "Re: TR7 - News!" in alt.games.tombraider <<=

> Hey, is there any way that CD could have been handed the entire
> project, engine, content, etc. ?

Doubt it. As DC has said they're using their own engine.

> I mean that way, they get the pot Core was stewing with. And if they
> fix up that game and tweak the engine, come up with some new locations
> and TOMBS! then we might just have a worthwhile game :)

That's a good point. What they could have perhaps been given from
Core's work was all the loose leaf lit.: designs and ideas for levels,
plot ideas, what-not-to-do-with-Lara, etc.


--
"... Repress the urge to unsubscribe or format thyself! This poster
is a known geek sci-fi fanboy ... and they hold certain views."
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider,alt.fan.lara-croft (More info?)

=>> The runes were cast, the portents thundered and then "McGrandpa"
warbled on about "TR7 - News!" in alt.games.tombraider <<=

> I GOT to do something sensible after reading all that... I know, I'll
> go see HERO tomorrow lunch time! 😱)) And then, leave there and go
> buy me another truck!

[* imagines McG driving through yokelsville USA in his new truck;
BFG9000 on the cab's rifle rack plus the heads of a few Ewoks and TR
mutants proudly displayed across the hood. *]


--
"My dear chap, I never would have dreamt of depriving you of your moment
of triumph. Alas, a moment was all I could spare."
-- Sir Percy Blakeney
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider,alt.fan.lara-croft (More info?)

"snark^" <snarkamedes@tulgeywook.org> wrote in message
news:k1jfm0lf6hcroujmu7nmd468732c23e2qo@4ax.com
> =>> The runes were cast, the portents thundered and then "McGrandpa"
> warbled on about "TR7 - News!" in alt.games.tombraider <<=
>
>> I GOT to do something sensible after reading all that... I know,
>> I'll
>> go see HERO tomorrow lunch time! 😱)) And then, leave there and go
>> buy me another truck!
>
> [* imagines McG driving through yokelsville USA in his new truck;
> BFG9000 on the cab's rifle rack plus the heads of a few Ewoks and TR
> mutants proudly displayed across the hood. *]
>
>
> --
> "My dear chap, I never would have dreamt of depriving you of your
> moment
> of triumph. Alas, a moment was all I could spare."
> -- Sir Percy Blakeney

Hah!

Imagine the entire industrialized Southern end of England, all bunched
together complete with little pockets of the 'burbs. Surround it with 3
'beltways', 8 lane superslabs. Intersect with 5 major Interstate and
State highways, all superslabs within the Metro-plex. Put 6.5million
people in it. About 70% of them driving a [truck*] of some sort.
Welcome to Houston, Texas! 😱)

McG.
"The difference between America and England is that the
English think 100 miles is a long distance and the
Americans think 100 years is a long time."
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider,alt.fan.lara-croft (More info?)

"snark^" <snarkamedes@tulgeywook.org> wrote in message
news:eivcm0hf7ojrpjch83das2koir06qri7c6@4ax.com...
> =>> The runes were cast, the portents thundered and then "McGrandpa"
> warbled on about "Re: TR7 - News!" in alt.games.tombraider <<=
>
> > Hey, is there any way that CD could have been handed the entire
> > project, engine, content, etc. ?
>
> Doubt it. As DC has said they're using their own engine.
>
> > I mean that way, they get the pot Core was stewing with. And if they
> > fix up that game and tweak the engine, come up with some new locations
> > and TOMBS! then we might just have a worthwhile game :)
>
> That's a good point. What they could have perhaps been given from
> Core's work was all the loose leaf lit.: designs and ideas for levels,
> plot ideas, what-not-to-do-with-Lara, etc.
>

Nah...CyD would have been too narky to accept it.
I imagine they've gone through an utter rethink.
And...I also think that with Gard back on it we'll see a less-bustier,
less-sexied-up Lara (with any luck)...

>
> --
> "... Repress the urge to unsubscribe or format thyself! This poster
> is a known geek sci-fi fanboy ... and they hold certain views."
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider,alt.fan.lara-croft (More info?)

snark^ <snarkamedes@tulgeywook.org> wrote in
news:7pvcm01hlqr3mb770p01m424d12qti0gt6@4ax.com:

> =>> The runes were cast, the portents thundered and then "Dragoncarer"
> warbled on about "Re: TR7 - News!" in alt.games.tombraider <<=

(I may have accidentally snipped an attrib here..)
>
>> > Meaning they've done away with the fixed chasecam and gone for the
>> > camera-relative controls instead? Ooh, yuck. All it needed was
>> > for the sidestepping keys to be mapped to the left and right
>> > buttons + turn by mouse/stick.

I agree on the yuck.

>
> Quick definition of the camera styles:
>
> Fixed chasecam: camera stays glued behind the character at all times
> (aka 'ass-cam'); turning the mouse swings the characters view/turns
> them. Sidestepping allowed (in one form or another). Example games:
> TR, Oni, Drakan, Infernal Indy, FAKK2, Project Eden, The Thing, H&D2.


> Relative chasecam: camera is usually fixed 'behind' the character but
> pressing the movement keys makes them move in the direction relative
> to the camera's view: pressing back makes them run towards the camera,
> left/right makes them turn and run to the side of the screen, forward
> = forward and the camera usually 'springs' back into the chaseview.
> Usually no sidestepping involved. Example games: Outcast, Beyond Good
> and Evil, Empirical Indy, Max Payne, Soul Caliber (from what I
> remember of the demo).

While I agree with your definitions, I think there's some other factor(s)
too. I generally like the fixed chasecam and dislike the relative
chasecam. But I remember generally liking the movement in Outcast and
despising the movement in BG+E.

For some ass-cam games, the camera movement/direction is synched very
closely with the character movement, so that there seems to be little
difference between them. Maybe its that the mouse will rotate the camera
and character together. In (old-skool) TR there's a camera lag that give a
nice sense of motion. Whether or not the lag is problematic for gameplay
depends on how twitchy the game is (more on this at the end).

For some relative games, such a tight synch means that it control resembles
the ass-cam much of the time. I actually popped Outcast back on my machine
to check. Since Cutter has no way to turn except by turning the camera,
and since turning the camera turns Cutter, ther's really not much
difference between the two (camera and character).

It's close to your definition of fixed asscam, though it lacks
sidestepping (Cutter runs to screen left and the camera sidesteps). This
matters for actions that are uni-directional based on the way the character
faces, (jumping, for example), but this seems to be a choice about the
animation (run left vs sidestep while retaining the facing) rather than any
deep system differences.

The only other difference is that the player has no way to look around
without turning the character around, but I think this exists in some ass-
cam games?


For other relative games, the camera loosely follows the character, or has
a fixed location, which means the characters travel direction will change
without the player's control, which blows goats IMO. I didn't bother
finishing Prince of Persia because the camera liked to glide along its own
path out of my control and I kept running off in strange directions.


> Beyond G&E can get annoying at times when the camera angle is
> swung to a new static view and you (with finger hard down on forward)
> suddenly find yourself moving Jade back into a danger area you trying
> to get her out of.
>

BG+E has this problem and in addition has places where the designers chose
a fixed camera angle that made playing difficult because the valid paths to
travel were at some odd angle (60 degrees or so relative to the screen)
while Jade's motion was a combination of orthogonal vectors (left, up,
right, down). At least on the PC version. I agree with your sentiments
about the annoyance.


> If you've got a free mouse the fixed chasecam is best ... Just feels more
precise I suppose.

For me it's more about keeping control than precision. TR 1-5 has precise
character motion. AOD has somewhat imprecise motion; it's sluggish and the
game world has far greater resolution than Lara's moves, so the game has to
interpret the player's commands more than previous versions. But I still
retain control over wher the camera aims (even if it's indirectly through
Lara).

Prince of Persia, OTOH, is fairly imprecise - there's a lot of interpreting
the player's commands. You can run along a wall if you're simply near the
wall rather than right next to it, for example (the Prince 'pops' into the
run along the wall animation). The floaty camera with camera dependent
movement means that the player also lacks a lot of control (over both the
camera and the character). Drove me nuts. :)


> The cam-relative system seems to find more favour with all the console
> games -- and if the game has any of those annoying fixed camera angle
> views you can get confused real quick.

>> It's interesting here...so many people seem to like the idea of an
>> 'Oni-esque' camera control system, but perhaps without the targeting
>> reticle. Which would elimanate the camera issues, and the jerky
>> turning circle...which wasn't even a problem until AoD!!! It was fun
>> that Lara turned around quite slowly in the other games!!! Fine!!!

Maybe it's just what you get used to. I like the old-skool TR system.
Failing that, I'm happy with a mouse keyboard combo (mouse to turn,
keyboard to move, movement is character relative rather than camera
relative).

The turn rate is an interesting thing. It's the difference between an
aesthetic choice (TR style smooth slow turn with camera lag) and a gameplay
choice (fast precise turning). Mostly it depends on the type of game - how
often do I need the zippy fast turning?

For TR and adventure games in general, I prefer the slower turning.
There's some nice theory of camerawork stuff there - it takes so many
frames for the viewer to perceive the new stuff entering the screen, the
motion is smoother, etc.

For a shooty game, you're just looking for the enemy, and it's always
something that is moving (or has muzzle flashes),so the player can just aim
at anything that moves and worry about what it looks like after the fact.
The scenery doesn't even enter into it.

So umm, yeah. Keep the old TR style camera work, please.


Sorry for the length,
JSwing
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

Keep: Graphics and engine. The graphics were great, the engine was halfway
decent.

Minor Change: Storyline. This plot should have been more developed. I can
live with Lara Croft being on the run for a while. It pulled me in. However,
I expected a little more depth. I was also expecting a second and third part
to the story arc. Part 2: Lara finds that there were more Nephilim hidden
somewhere...and possibly a hint indicating that she might be able to regain her
"station" in life...and perhaps her sanity...or her sunnier disposition...or
however that works. Part 3: Lara finally reaches the "home base" of the
hidden Nephilim. In the process of trying to trash them, she meets up with
someone who somehow points her back to her original personality. I doubt that
she'd ever be the same...but, in a way, it would be like a part of her soul had
been regained. After that, I'd say that it might take another near-death
experience to rekindle the flame that she once had. She can now go home.
Although she's a tad darker, her old personality will finally contribute once
more to her psyche.

Just my two cents...a buck-twenty-five after inflation.

Major Change: Controls, levels. The controls were a tad slow, somewhat wonky,
and I was expecting them to keep the same controls and moves but expand on them
by introducing new moves. The levels were seriously lacking, though, and way
too linear.
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider,alt.fan.lara-croft (More info?)

=>> The runes were cast, the portents thundered and then JSwing
warbled on about "Re: TR7 - News!" in alt.games.tombraider <<=

> While I agree with your definitions, I think there's some other factor(s)
> too. I generally like the fixed chasecam and dislike the relative
> chasecam. But I remember generally liking the movement in Outcast and
> despising the movement in BG+E.

Yeah there is a third option too where the mouse still changes the
camera view but the character's movement is relative.

Outcast was a strange one in that Cutter's behaviour changed when he
hauled his gun out: before it was camera relative movement (mouse with a
revolving freelook), then with gun in hand it pretty much was a straight
fixed chasecam; only they kept Cutter's movement to the relative
animations (for consistency's sake) rather than go to the usual
sidestep/hopback. It worked really well I thought. Only the inability
to manually aim up and down ruined it a little bit -- kinda like Oni in
that respect.

> For some ass-cam games, the camera movement/direction is synched very
> closely with the character movement, so that there seems to be little
> difference between them. Maybe its that the mouse will rotate the camera
> and character together.

H&D2's like that. Turning of the view is instant. Again it's for
consistency as it turns at the same speed as in first person view. H&D2
is basically an FPS with extras though.

> In (old-skool) TR there's a camera lag that give a
> nice sense of motion. Whether or not the lag is problematic for gameplay
> depends on how twitchy the game is (more on this at the end).

It gave her movement a 'flow' didn't it. TRAOD's would have been the
same only it was just too unresponsive to the point where you couldn't
feel that flow, it stuttered instead. "Hmm," thinks TRAOD-Lara, "he's
pressed the left key, should I turn now or wait a bit longer?..."

> The only other difference is that the player has no way to look around
> without turning the character around, but I think this exists in some ass-
> cam games?

Well Lara's freelook key in the TR games worked a bit like that: you
could only turn her head/direction of view so far. Project Eden did it
best in this regard: you could swing the camera so far and their heads
would follow; but when it reached the (prior to neck-snapping) point
they shuffled around to face that way as well.

Project Eden had another thing too: the floating cursor. It wasn't
fixed in the middle of the screen like normal -- there was a box the
cursor 'floated' in (smaller than the screenwidth/height). Operation
Flashpoint had this too: and in in FPS view as well. I feel that it's
another thing that works well in 3rd person games. Especially good for
3rd person games in fact because it gave a degree of natural-looking
movement to the chars before their bodies began responding to the
player's control -- stopped the 'twitchy' look that happened in the
instant response games like FAKK2 (but then who would complain about
Julie jiggling about?).

> BG+E has this problem and in addition has places where the designers chose
> a fixed camera angle that made playing difficult because the valid paths to
> travel were at some odd angle (60 degrees or so relative to the screen)
> while Jade's motion was a combination of orthogonal vectors (left, up,
> right, down). At least on the PC version. I agree with your sentiments
> about the annoyance.

Oh yeah... creep behind the guards, heading towards an interesting
looking niche at the far end of a walkway -- avoiding red mines and a
scan-bot along the way -- get spotted, run for hole, crouching as Jade
reaches it... only when entering the hole the camera view inside it is
opposite to the one it had on going in; and me with my finger on the
go-forward-ASAP button now finds myself running Jade back out into the
goons and grenades... and back into the niche... and then out again...

It's not good design because you have to build the maps with this kind
of thing in mind. Far simpler IMHO to simply stick a fixed cam view on
(with transparent body for the er..., 'tight closeups') and let it roll
freely from there.

> Maybe it's just what you get used to. I like the old-skool TR system.
> Failing that, I'm happy with a mouse keyboard combo (mouse to turn,
> keyboard to move, movement is character relative rather than camera
> relative).

I won't bore you with my canned rant on a good TR keyboard/mouse
layout...

....then again, why not? Scream for mercy if you've seen this before. 😉

WASD = forward, sidestep left, step back, sidestep right
QE = lean left/right
SHIFT = 'down': stand > crouch > prone
SPACE = 'up': prone > crouch > stand > jump
MWHEEL = movement speed: creep > walk > run > sprint (ala H&D2)

MOUSE = floating cursor; fixed chasecam; turns head first then body
MOUSE1 = primary fire/object action (use item/switch/button...)
MOUSE2 = secondary fire/environment action (vaulting/climbing...)
MOUSE3 = context menu (OpFlash style: access Inv, reload gun,
change weapon's fire mode, etc)

After some quick keys for guns/flares/flashlight/etc I then had a huge
list of key-combos for nearly every movement under the gaming sun:
sliding, cartwheeling, rolling sideways, tumbling, etc., all based on
the combinations of stance + speed + direction keys. I wanted it to be
intuitive and easy for the player to translate from RL, ie.: can't roll
unless your prone and moving faster than 'walk' speed; must be crouched
and at 'sprint' speed to do fancy tumbles/dives; jumping distance
depends on speed.

Of course trying to fit every move from TR and the other 3rd person
games might (would...) result is yet more laggy response unless you up
the minimum stats a little way beyond console level...

> Sorry for the length,

Believe me I'd be the last to complain. And if I did the rest of the
regulars on here would rip me to bits for the hypocrisy and laugh. 😀


--
snark^ #gameplanet channel on the etg IRC network snark(at)
www.gameplanet.co.nz ICQ: 1471203 paradise(dot)net(dot)nz
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

=>> The runes were cast, the portents thundered and then Paul E Kiefer
warbled on about "Re: TR7 - News!" in alt.games.tombraider <<=

> Major Change: Controls, levels. The controls were a tad slow, somewhat
> wonky, and I was expecting them to keep the same controls and moves but
> expand on them by introducing new moves. The levels were seriously
> lacking, though, and way too linear.

I was expecting full 360deg mouse movement. To load the game up (after
having first joyfully adjusted the keys to WASD layout) and find I still
needed to press a look key to swing Lara's view around was a moment of
indescribable despair.

--
The best way to turn a woman's head is to tell her she has a beautiful
profile. -- Sacha Guitry
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

In article <qepnm0916jmp4qddmbtn8n7r93c92e103t@4ax.com>, snark^
<snarkamedes@tulgeywook.org> writes:

>=>> The runes were cast, the portents thundered and then Paul E Kiefer
> warbled on about "Re: TR7 - News!" in alt.games.tombraider <<=
>
>> Major Change: Controls, levels. The controls were a tad slow, somewhat
>> wonky, and I was expecting them to keep the same controls and moves but
>> expand on them by introducing new moves. The levels were seriously
>> lacking, though, and way too linear.
>
>I was expecting full 360deg mouse movement. To load the game up (after
>having first joyfully adjusted the keys to WASD layout) and find I still
>needed to press a look key to swing Lara's view around was a moment of
>indescribable despair.
>

I got used to the old TR layout on the keyboard. Assuming that you mean that
you want to use the W, A, S and D keys for movement, I gotta disagree. That
type of setup always left me disoriented.
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider,alt.fan.lara-croft (More info?)

"Dragoncarer" <dc@haha.noflames> wrote in message
news:4168abde$1@news.alphalink.com.au...
>
> "snark^" <snarkamedes@tulgeywook.org> wrote in message
> news:eivcm0hf7ojrpjch83das2koir06qri7c6@4ax.com...
> > =>> The runes were cast, the portents thundered and then "McGrandpa"
> > warbled on about "Re: TR7 - News!" in alt.games.tombraider <<=
> >
> > > Hey, is there any way that CD could have been handed the entire
> > > project, engine, content, etc. ?
> >
> > Doubt it. As DC has said they're using their own engine.
> >
> > > I mean that way, they get the pot Core was stewing with. And if they
> > > fix up that game and tweak the engine, come up with some new locations
> > > and TOMBS! then we might just have a worthwhile game :)
> >
> > That's a good point. What they could have perhaps been given from
> > Core's work was all the loose leaf lit.: designs and ideas for levels,
> > plot ideas, what-not-to-do-with-Lara, etc.
> >
>
> Nah...CyD would have been too narky to accept it.
> I imagine they've gone through an utter rethink.
> And...I also think that with Gard back on it we'll see a less-bustier,
> less-sexied-up Lara (with any luck)...
>
> >
> > --
> > "... Repress the urge to unsubscribe or format thyself! This poster
> > is a known geek sci-fi fanboy ... and they hold certain views."
>
>
Hey, butier was always Lars's thing, the AOD problem was the 'darker'
aspect, I did not like the darker Lara as much as the TR1-5 Lara. ^_^

Inu-Yasha
Feh!!
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider,alt.fan.lara-croft (More info?)

"JoeBlade" <manny314@hotmail_.com> wrote in message
news:Xns957C8839CF84Bmany314hotmailcom@158.152.254.254...
> Dragoncarer wrote:
>
> > Date: 15/09/2004 (source: Eurogamer)
>
> My advise - take anything you read there with a both hands full of salt.
>
> jB
I'm just throwing my 2 cents worth about the controlls/camera here on the
end. I like the fixed cam with a cut-scene pan from afar if Lara has some
thing to do that is part of the game but not under your control. As for the
controls, I only like the contols to work as a joystick would, forward is
always forward, back back, left turn (moving) to the left, right the same.
the mouse is fine to shoot with (or use the space bar), but moving with it,
I find myself having to franticly spin my track ball, or pickup and scoot
with a regualar mouse (too often as in Doom, or Duke Nuke'em I find myself
up agains a wall, sliding left or right, and not getting turned around).
The old WASZ key group works fine for me. ^_^

Inu-Yasha
Feh!!
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider,alt.fan.lara-croft (More info?)

In news:<9Ribd.12311$yP2.10476@tornado.tampabay.rr.com> schrieb Thomas Jardine:
> "Dragoncarer" <dc@haha.noflames> wrote in message
> news:4168abde$1@news.alphalink.com.au...
>> "snark^" <snarkamedes@tulgeywook.org> wrote in message
>> news:eivcm0hf7ojrpjch83das2koir06qri7c6@4ax.com...
[ ... ]
>> > > I mean that way, they get the pot Core was stewing with. And if they
>> > > fix up that game and tweak the engine, come up with some new locations
>> > > and TOMBS! then we might just have a worthwhile game :)
>> >
>> > That's a good point. What they could have perhaps been given from
>> > Core's work was all the loose leaf lit.: designs and ideas for levels,
>> > plot ideas, what-not-to-do-with-Lara, etc.
>> >
>>
>> Nah...CyD would have been too narky to accept it.
>> I imagine they've gone through an utter rethink.
>> And...I also think that with Gard back on it we'll see a less-bustier,
>> less-sexied-up Lara (with any luck)...
>>
> Hey, butier was always Lars's thing,

On the other hand, the companies desire to make a sexier Lara
was one of Gard's main reasons to leave after TR1...

> the AOD problem was the 'darker'
> aspect, I did not like the darker Lara as much as the TR1-5 Lara. ^_^

IMHO, the main problem with AOD was the much too linear plot.
All the other issues were bearable in the end, but if I
(who usually needs at least a day for each Tomb Raider level)
can finish almost the whole game in two days, something has gone wrong...

The only thing worse than that
would be if TR7 turned out to be an ego-shooter. 🙂

T.
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

Gary Mitchell <wb6yru@ix.nospam.netcom.com> wrote in
news:416F86F3.9972109D@ix.nospam.netcom.com:

> It seems to me the single biggest factor in the success of a
> game like TR is the ease of control. If you have trouble making
> Lara do what you want, it doesn't matter much what the rest of
> the game is like, you'll be focused on that one problem.

>
> I'd say a close second is immersiveness, the game's ability to
> pull you into that world and hold your interest.


I suggest a little different phrasing:
The single biggest factor is control - making the character do what you
want.

The second biggest thing is the game has interesting things that the player
wants (the character) to do. The *player*.


There appears to be a design method where the game designer presents a set
of interesting things the game designer wants the character to do, or a set
of things the hero/engine is designed to do, which is not the same thing.
It goes like this:

Our hero can do X, Y, Z. (run, jump, shoot)

Make a list of the different variations of each task, and sort each list by
difficulty.

Example:
Jump -
- short, easy jump as a tutorial
- medium jump with no penalty for failure but trying again
- a precision jump
- a jump over something deadly
- a series of jumps, with retry on failure
- a series of timed jumps
- a precise jump where something is shooting at you
- a series of precise timed jumps with things shooting at you

Then take this list and combine it with the lists for the other actions (X,
Y, Z, etc). The end result is a list where the easier jumps are before
difficult jumps, but you may encounter a somewhat difficult run before a
medium difficulty jump.

Then divide the list into equal lengths, and hand each length to a level
designer, who then builds the level per the list. If they want to add in a
few pretty bits, fine, but the challenges have already been decided.

The levels then have the hero progress through this list of crud in a
linear fashion, like beads on a string. Enter a room/space/area, face a
challenge, move to the next room/space/area. When the player reaches the
end of the list, the game is over.

Oh, and if a new feature is added partway through this process, (our hero
can now do Q - swimming), then they create a themed level where the feature
is emphasized, after which it disappears from the gameplay.


This produces crummy games. I don't know for certain that this method is
followed, but you'd have a hard time to convince me that it (or something
like it) isn't used on a lot of action-adventure games. Alice, for example
(which wasn't a terrible game, but it was forgettable).


If the game instead offers interesting things that the player wants to do,
then the game is much better. It immediately adds an aspect of exploration
and discovery - what does this do? Where does that lead? What happens if
I try a backflip off this rock? Can I find a different way around a
particular challenge? How can I get over there?

Compare, for instance, the linear snoozefest that is the second level of
The Lost Artifact (the series of death traps in Scotland) to the fantastic
first (and second) level(s) of the user made 'Lara and the Last Crusade'.
Heck, just running around Lara's house (TR2, TR3) is more fun than the
tutorial bit in AOD.

If the CD folks produce another generic churn through the list of tasks
kind of game then I'm not buying it.

JSwing
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider,alt.fan.lara-croft (More info?)

snark^ <snarkamedes@tulgeywook.org> wrote in
news😛kmnm0ld6c70rrtlbpccds4cu5modqd2oi@4ax.com:

> =>> The runes were cast, the portents thundered and then JSwing
> warbled on about "Re: TR7 - News!" in alt.games.tombraider <<=
>
> Project Eden had another thing too: the floating cursor.

Dunno. The only 3d cursor I've seen was Anachronox, and it was only so-so.
It kind of broke immersion because it changes the player's focus. I got
used to it, but it took a while. I'm not against it, but I'm not
enthusiatic either.


> Oh yeah... creep behind the guards, heading towards an interesting
> looking niche at the far end of a walkway -- avoiding red mines and a
> scan-bot along the way -- get spotted, run for hole, crouching as Jade
> reaches it... only when entering the hole the camera view inside it is
> opposite to the one it had on going in; and me with my finger on the
> go-forward-ASAP button now finds myself running Jade back out into the
> goons and grenades... and back into the niche... and then out again...

That, but also the timed run over/around a laser beam only you travel at a
funny angle compared to the proper path. Which means Jade gets stuck
running into the edges of the path, instead of travelling smoothly along
it.


> my canned rant on a good TR keyboard/mouse layout...
>
> WASD = forward, sidestep left, step back, sidestep right
> QE = lean left/right
> SHIFT = 'down': stand > crouch > prone
> SPACE = 'up': prone > crouch > stand > jump
> MWHEEL = movement speed: creep > walk > run > sprint (ala H&D2)
>
> MOUSE = floating cursor; fixed chasecam; turns head first then body
> MOUSE1 = primary fire/object action (use item/switch/button...)
> MOUSE2 = secondary fire/environment action (vaulting/climbing...)
> MOUSE3 = context menu (OpFlash style: access Inv, reload gun,
> change weapon's fire mode, etc)
>
> After some quick keys for guns/flares/flashlight/etc I then had a huge
> list of key-combos for nearly every movement under the gaming sun:
> sliding, cartwheeling, rolling sideways, tumbling, etc., all based on
> the combinations of stance + speed + direction keys.

For TR I actually like the (default) keypad. 4 directions to move, the
look key sits comfortable under my thumb. The other moves are almost all
controlled by the adjacent keys (flares, turning around, etc). The left
hand controls action, jump, draw weapons, walk, and so forth.

Of course, some people have laptops without keypads. Some folks have
trackballs. The best setup is a game with configurable controls. We all
win!

JSwing
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

JSwing wrote:
[snip]

> If the CD folks produce another generic churn through the list of tasks
> kind of game then I'm not buying it.


This goes back to something we've previously discussed at some
length in this NG... *the story*. One of the reasons I liked
TR 4 best (aside from Lara's figure 😉) is its story was more
obvious as you played the game. It seemed more like you (Lara)
were on a quest of some kind. (The others had that too, but it
wasn't as obvious.) And along the way, there were all these
interesting places to explore, puzzles to solve, etc.

This is just the opposite as your "list of tasks." When
designing a new game, they should start with a good story. The
level designers should then fill in the details of the journey.
Only after that should the "task people" get involved. Just the
opposite of the process you described.

-- G
 
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