Training GSP's for HPR

[Guest]

Archived from groups: uk.rec.shooting.game (More info?)

I am just starting to look into the possibility of getting a GSP for
shooting. Part of the research process has seen me trawling the web for
info. The sites I have found have been a mix of sites for breeders and the
national GSP associations. I've also come across a site that I think may be
of a frequent poster in here, can there be more than one Derry Argue???

One of the email groups I have joined has a leaning to rehoming GSP's and
through it I have heard of a bitch, 13 months old, that can no longer stay
with a family due to illness of the owner. The bitch has returned to the
breeder who is looking for a new home. Whilst I have owned and trained dogs
for home life I have never undertaken to train a working dog. The dog has
been described as boisterous, I would like to suspect that's because it
hasn't been given the chance to train and work though this may be wishful
thinking.

Living on the edge of the forestry I have 1000's of acres outside the back
door to train and work the dog in and as we are expecting another baby I
also have the luxury of having my wife at home for the next 5 months on
maternity leave which would leave me, the house husband, with time to really
concentrate on training.

Having said all that I am in no rush to get a dog. What would folk advise?
Is a 13 month old GSP too hard a prospect for a novice gundog trainer? Would
I be better getting a pup from a good line?

Cheers,.

Dave

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: uk.rec.shooting.game (More info?)

"Dave P" <davepnojunk@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:33i68gF41oh59U1@individual.net:

> I am just starting to look into the possibility of getting
> a GSP for shooting. Part of the research process has seen
> me trawling the web for info. The sites I have found have
> been a mix of sites for breeders and the national GSP
> associations. I've also come across a site that I think may
> be of a frequent poster in here, can there be more than one
> Derry Argue???
>
> One of the email groups I have joined has a leaning to
> rehoming GSP's and through it I have heard of a bitch, 13
> months old, that can no longer stay with a family due to
> illness of the owner. The bitch has returned to the breeder
> who is looking for a new home. Whilst I have owned and
> trained dogs for home life I have never undertaken to train
> a working dog. The dog has been described as boisterous, I
> would like to suspect that's because it hasn't been given
> the chance to train and work though this may be wishful
> thinking.
>
> Living on the edge of the forestry I have 1000's of acres
> outside the back door to train and work the dog in and as
> we are expecting another baby I also have the luxury of
> having my wife at home for the next 5 months on maternity
> leave which would leave me, the house husband, with time to
> really concentrate on training.
>
> Having said all that I am in no rush to get a dog. What
> would folk advise? Is a 13 month old GSP too hard a
> prospect for a novice gundog trainer? Would I be better
> getting a pup from a good line?
>
> Cheers,.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
>

Hi Dave,

You tell us a lot about the dog and about your situation, but
nothing much about yourself.

Anyone who considers buying a dog from me (and, no, this is not
a sales pitch!) undergoes a fairly strict psychological
examination, although they are probably not aware of it! First,
there is an "application form" on my web page which is a
brilliant idea copied from a friend in Canada. I am pleased to
say that puts a lot of enquirers off!<g>

Should you get a 13 month old reject GSP? That, put bluntly, is
your question which I shall attempt to answer as it means I
can't possibly do my tax returns at the same time!<g>

I am highly suspicious of "rescue" dogs. Sometimes they work out
but I would always suspect the reasons given for the dog needing
to be re-homed. These dogs, in their country of origin, are bred
to hunt, point, and retrieve. But they were also originally bred
(and some still are!) to follow a blood spore, retrieve a dead
fox (for trials, over a distance of 1,000 metres), tackle a
wounded wild boar, track a wounded roe deer, kill a cat (I kid
you not), and so on. British owners without experience are
sometimes surprised when a young dog off this sort of breeding
chases and ultimately kills a sheep. Why shouldn't it? I would
expect most young gundogs to chase sheep -- but I am ready for
it and the problem is quickly nipped in the bud. Others put it
down to "boisterousness" or "wanting to be trained". My friend,
that dog is simply out of control and will probably require
harsh measures to get it right!

So, by all means, get the GSP -- but be prepared for the
possibility that there is a lot more wrong with it than has
hithero been declared. In short, be prepared to have to either
shoot it yourself or take it on a one way trip to the vet. I may
be wrong. It may be "wonder dog". But in nearly half a century I
have buried more than my share and had very few prodigies.

Next, you tell us nothing about your own abilities other than
that you will have plenty of time on your hands and have
"trained" a few house dogs.

What books have you read? Have you viewed any videos? Have you
been out shooting or training with a reasonably competent gundog
trainer in your area? Have you attended field trials as a
spectator on a regular basis? Have you enquired whether the
forestry owners will allow you to train on their land, let alone
shoot? No? Then you are not ready to own a gundog and if you
were, you would not have posed your question here.

90% of those who come to me for a dog are sent away empty handed
because they fail the "psychological test". They are in love
with the image they have of themselves clad in immaculate
tweeds, Barbour, side-lock ejector shotgun, and a brace of
stylish GSP's in the back of the 4X4, and the last thing they
want to do is the donkey work of actually finding out how to
train gundogs.

I am sorry to have been so hard on you but you have at least had
the good sense to ask a few questions before taking the plunge.
I really do recommend you try to get some first hand experience
of gundog training, either by pushing a broom for a local
kennels or holding leads out training, at trials or (even
better) out shooting. You will find it pays dividends in the
end. There is nothing worth having that is not worth a little
trouble.

Derry

 

[john]

Archived from groups: uk.rec.shooting.game (More info?)

"Dave P" <davepnojunk@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:33i68gF41oh59U1@individual.net:

> I am just starting to look into the possibility of getting a GSP for
> shooting. Part of the research process has seen me trawling the web
> for info. The sites I have found have been a mix of sites for
> breeders and the national GSP associations. I've also come across a
> site that I think may be of a frequent poster in here, can there be
> more than one Derry Argue???

Just to let you know that a friend (who is a professional deer manager)
has a litter of GSP. He is in a tight situation and will need to move
(possibly) the last thing I heard (2 weeks ago) was that he intended to
sell his pups (pedigree) for £100 each to working homes.
Although neither my friend, nor I am anywhere near as educated or as
knowledgeable as Derry when it comes to working dogs, I thought I would
just let you know.

John

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: uk.rec.shooting.game (More info?)

"Derry Argue" <derry(delete)@adviegundogs.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Xns95CF93A7983B8derryadviegundogscou@130.133.1.4...
> "Dave P" <davepnojunk@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:33i68gF41oh59U1@individual.net:
>
>> I am just starting to look into the possibility of getting
>> a GSP for shooting. Part of the research process has seen
>> me trawling the web for info. The sites I have found have
>> been a mix of sites for breeders and the national GSP
>> associations. I've also come across a site that I think may
>> be of a frequent poster in here, can there be more than one
>> Derry Argue???
>>
>> One of the email groups I have joined has a leaning to
>> rehoming GSP's and through it I have heard of a bitch, 13
>> months old, that can no longer stay with a family due to
>> illness of the owner. The bitch has returned to the breeder
>> who is looking for a new home. Whilst I have owned and
>> trained dogs for home life I have never undertaken to train
>> a working dog. The dog has been described as boisterous, I
>> would like to suspect that's because it hasn't been given
>> the chance to train and work though this may be wishful
>> thinking.
>>
>> Living on the edge of the forestry I have 1000's of acres
>> outside the back door to train and work the dog in and as
>> we are expecting another baby I also have the luxury of
>> having my wife at home for the next 5 months on maternity
>> leave which would leave me, the house husband, with time to
>> really concentrate on training.
>>
>> Having said all that I am in no rush to get a dog. What
>> would folk advise? Is a 13 month old GSP too hard a
>> prospect for a novice gundog trainer? Would I be better
>> getting a pup from a good line?
>>
>> Cheers,.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> Hi Dave,
>
> You tell us a lot about the dog and about your situation, but
> nothing much about yourself.
>
> Anyone who considers buying a dog from me (and, no, this is not
> a sales pitch!) undergoes a fairly strict psychological
> examination, although they are probably not aware of it! First,
> there is an "application form" on my web page which is a
> brilliant idea copied from a friend in Canada. I am pleased to
> say that puts a lot of enquirers off!<g>
>
> Should you get a 13 month old reject GSP? That, put bluntly, is
> your question which I shall attempt to answer as it means I
> can't possibly do my tax returns at the same time!<g>
>
> I am highly suspicious of "rescue" dogs. Sometimes they work out
> but I would always suspect the reasons given for the dog needing
> to be re-homed. These dogs, in their country of origin, are bred
> to hunt, point, and retrieve. But they were also originally bred
> (and some still are!) to follow a blood spore, retrieve a dead
> fox (for trials, over a distance of 1,000 metres), tackle a
> wounded wild boar, track a wounded roe deer, kill a cat (I kid
> you not), and so on. British owners without experience are
> sometimes surprised when a young dog off this sort of breeding
> chases and ultimately kills a sheep. Why shouldn't it? I would
> expect most young gundogs to chase sheep -- but I am ready for
> it and the problem is quickly nipped in the bud. Others put it
> down to "boisterousness" or "wanting to be trained". My friend,
> that dog is simply out of control and will probably require
> harsh measures to get it right!
>
> So, by all means, get the GSP -- but be prepared for the
> possibility that there is a lot more wrong with it than has
> hithero been declared. In short, be prepared to have to either
> shoot it yourself or take it on a one way trip to the vet. I may
> be wrong. It may be "wonder dog". But in nearly half a century I
> have buried more than my share and had very few prodigies.
>
> Next, you tell us nothing about your own abilities other than
> that you will have plenty of time on your hands and have
> "trained" a few house dogs.
>
> What books have you read? Have you viewed any videos? Have you
> been out shooting or training with a reasonably competent gundog
> trainer in your area? Have you attended field trials as a
> spectator on a regular basis? Have you enquired whether the
> forestry owners will allow you to train on their land, let alone
> shoot? No? Then you are not ready to own a gundog and if you
> were, you would not have posed your question here.
>
> 90% of those who come to me for a dog are sent away empty handed
> because they fail the "psychological test". They are in love
> with the image they have of themselves clad in immaculate
> tweeds, Barbour, side-lock ejector shotgun, and a brace of
> stylish GSP's in the back of the 4X4, and the last thing they
> want to do is the donkey work of actually finding out how to
> train gundogs.
>
> I am sorry to have been so hard on you but you have at least had
> the good sense to ask a few questions before taking the plunge.
> I really do recommend you try to get some first hand experience
> of gundog training, either by pushing a broom for a local
> kennels or holding leads out training, at trials or (even
> better) out shooting. You will find it pays dividends in the
> end. There is nothing worth having that is not worth a little
> trouble.
>
> Derry

I appreciate the honest reply. Have to say only book I've read is yours!
You've raised many good points. The land is forestry commission and is under
their public access scheme, no right to shoot on it. I have been and shot
with a local keeper over GSP's for woodcock.

I agree a rescue dog is more than likely to be full of faults that would
flummox an inexperienced trainer like me.

Can't write my own psychological examination report, maybe I'll fill yours
in and see what you think! I think I'll be giving this dog a miss.

Dave

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: uk.rec.shooting.game (More info?)

"John" <deerstalker@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns95CF98B9937A4OEcopyremovedheaders@130.133.1.4...
> "Dave P" <davepnojunk@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:33i68gF41oh59U1@individual.net:
>
>> I am just starting to look into the possibility of getting a GSP for
>> shooting. Part of the research process has seen me trawling the web
>> for info. The sites I have found have been a mix of sites for
>> breeders and the national GSP associations. I've also come across a
>> site that I think may be of a frequent poster in here, can there be
>> more than one Derry Argue???
>
> Just to let you know that a friend (who is a professional deer manager)
> has a litter of GSP. He is in a tight situation and will need to move
> (possibly) the last thing I heard (2 weeks ago) was that he intended to
> sell his pups (pedigree) for £100 each to working homes.
> Although neither my friend, nor I am anywhere near as educated or as
> knowledgeable as Derry when it comes to working dogs, I thought I would
> just let you know.
>
> John

Thanks John, I'll bear it in mind. I've done enough reading to know how
little I know about training a working dog but at some point I'll take the
plunge and start.

Dave

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: uk.rec.shooting.game (More info?)

In message <33imkiF413s6tU1@individual.net>, Dave P
<davepnojunk@hotmail.com> writes

>I agree a rescue dog is more than likely to be full of faults that would
>flummox an inexperienced trainer like me.

Let's not confuse 'rescue' with 'problem'. I've had mixed success with
rescue dogs. Sometimes they are on hard luck because of owner's
sickness or marriage breakdown. Sometimes they have been turned into
problems through lack of or poor training. The best working dog I ever
owned came up for rescue for 'destroying a kitchen'. He had destroyed
the kitchen, but only through boredom. A 15 month old GWP locked up in
a kitchen for 10 hours a day has to find relief somewhere. I took him
on, worked him and gave him plenty of exercise. He never damaged
anything in my home. He had been a working dog, but due to a marriage
breakdown, was handed on to some unsuitable owners who gave him no
exercise at all. All he needed was plenty of exercise.

On the other hand, I took on another GWP and he was an anarchist. After
6 weeks of intensive training, during which very little advance was
made, I had him destroyed. It was as hard on me as it was on the dog.

I say go and look at this GSP bitch, but go there with an open mind.

--Jonathan

"Fools learn from their mistakes;
I prefer to learn from the mistakes of others"
Bismark

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: uk.rec.shooting.game (More info?)

I emailed this to you, but it bounced.

In message <33i68gF41oh59U1@individual.net>, Dave P
<davepnojunk@hotmail.com> writes

>One of the email groups I have joined has a leaning to rehoming GSP's and
>through it I have heard of a bitch, 13 months old, that can no longer stay
>with a family due to illness of the owner. The bitch has returned to the
>breeder who is looking for a new home. Whilst I have owned and trained dogs
>for home life I have never undertaken to train a working dog. The dog has
>been described as boisterous, I would like to suspect that's because it
>hasn't been given the chance to train and work though this may be wishful
>thinking.

Any 13 month old GSP should be full of beans, but I wouldn't describe
bitches as boisterous. She's probably just got more energy than she
knows what to do with. Go and have a long hard look at the dog and see
what you think. Ask some tough questions: has she got any vices; what's
the truth behind her being returned? People lie even more about problem
dogs than they do over a 2nd hand car. Take her out for a walk and see
if she's willing to please; does she come back when called, or shove off
and do her own thing. She might bond to you in minutes, I've had that.
Or she could be an anarchist. I've had that too. Be prepared to walk
away and leave her behind. A dog has to please the eye, too.

>Living on the edge of the forestry I have 1000's of acres outside the back
>door to train and work the dog in and as we are expecting another baby I
>also have the luxury of having my wife at home for the next 5 months on
>maternity leave which would leave me, the house husband, with time to really
>concentrate on training.

Short sessions, and often, rather than long sessions. GSPs are good all
round dogs, especially suited to forests. (Though I have GWPs, I've had
GSPs.)

>Having said all that I am in no rush to get a dog. What would folk advise?
>Is a 13 month old GSP too hard a prospect for a novice gundog trainer?

Nope, I'd say she's a good bet for you. If she 13 months now, she'll be
a good age for next season. Go and have a look. It's normal to pay
something to the kennels or rescue society (£50 to £100 would not be too
much). If the rescue society is involved, you won't get the dog's
papers. Oh, and get yourself a couple of books - Michael Brander's
books are excellent. and if you do take her on and need further help,
just ask. Good luck.

--Jonathan

"Fools learn from their mistakes;
I prefer to learn from the mistakes of others"
Bismark

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: uk.rec.shooting.game (More info?)

Jonathan Spencer <jms@jonathan-spencer.co.uk> wrote in
news:K5b0mqJOwG1BFw07@salvage.demon.co.uk:

> In message <33imkiF413s6tU1@individual.net>, Dave P
> <davepnojunk@hotmail.com> writes
>
>>I agree a rescue dog is more than likely to be full of
>>faults that would flummox an inexperienced trainer like me.
>
> Let's not confuse 'rescue' with 'problem'. I've had mixed
> success with rescue dogs. Sometimes they are on hard luck
> because of owner's sickness or marriage breakdown.
> Sometimes they have been turned into problems through lack
> of or poor training. The best working dog I ever owned
> came up for rescue for 'destroying a kitchen'. He had
> destroyed the kitchen, but only through boredom. A 15
> month old GWP locked up in a kitchen for 10 hours a day has
> to find relief somewhere. I took him on, worked him and
> gave him plenty of exercise. He never damaged anything in
> my home. He had been a working dog, but due to a marriage
> breakdown, was handed on to some unsuitable owners who gave
> him no exercise at all. All he needed was plenty of
> exercise.
>
> On the other hand, I took on another GWP and he was an
> anarchist. After 6 weeks of intensive training, during
> which very little advance was made, I had him destroyed.
> It was as hard on me as it was on the dog.
>
> I say go and look at this GSP bitch, but go there with an
> open mind.
>
> --Jonathan
>
> "Fools learn from their mistakes;
> I prefer to learn from the mistakes of others"
> Bismark

I'd second that advice. The point I was trying to make was that
you should be prepared to get a dud -- and be prepared to do
something about it if you do.

That may sound callous but the situation affects the human
involvement rather than the dog if dealt with properly and
humanely. What I do object to is dogs being passed around from
pillar to post because none of those involved is prepared to
make a sensible if difficult decision but rather prefers to tell
lies and let others carry the can.

Sometimes one CAN get a nicely socialized, properly bred dog
just at the right stage for further training. But you can also
get the dud. Be prepared for the worst and at the least you
won't be disappointed. Meantime, learn all you can.

Derry

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: uk.rec.shooting.game (More info?)

Jonathan Spencer <jms@jonathan-spencer.co.uk> wrote in
news:K5b0mqJOwG1BFw07@salvage.demon.co.uk:

> In message <33imkiF413s6tU1@individual.net>, Dave P
> <davepnojunk@hotmail.com> writes
>
>>I agree a rescue dog is more than likely to be full of
>>faults that would flummox an inexperienced trainer like me.
>
> Let's not confuse 'rescue' with 'problem'. I've had mixed
> success with rescue dogs. Sometimes they are on hard luck
> because of owner's sickness or marriage breakdown.
> Sometimes they have been turned into problems through lack
> of or poor training. The best working dog I ever owned
> came up for rescue for 'destroying a kitchen'. He had
> destroyed the kitchen, but only through boredom. A 15
> month old GWP locked up in a kitchen for 10 hours a day has
> to find relief somewhere. I took him on, worked him and
> gave him plenty of exercise. He never damaged anything in
> my home. He had been a working dog, but due to a marriage
> breakdown, was handed on to some unsuitable owners who gave
> him no exercise at all. All he needed was plenty of
> exercise.
>
> On the other hand, I took on another GWP and he was an
> anarchist. After 6 weeks of intensive training, during
> which very little advance was made, I had him destroyed.
> It was as hard on me as it was on the dog.
>
> I say go and look at this GSP bitch, but go there with an
> open mind.
>
> --Jonathan
>
> "Fools learn from their mistakes;
> I prefer to learn from the mistakes of others"
> Bismark

I'd second that advice. The point I was trying to make was that
you should be prepared to get a dud -- and be prepared to do
something about it if you do.

That may sound callous but the situation affects the human
involvement rather than the dog if dealt with properly and
humanely. What I do object to is dogs being passed around from
pillar to post because none of those involved is prepared to
make a sensible if difficult decision but rather prefers to tell
lies and let others carry the can.

Sometimes one CAN get a nicely socialized, properly bred dog
just at the right stage for further training. But you can also
get the dud. Be prepared for the worst and at the least you
won't be disappointed. Meantime, learn all you can.

Derry