Treachery and Pro Blue Creature

[Dave]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Hi all,

Player A has a miscellaneous creature in play. Player B plays
Treachery and attempts to enchant player A's creature. Player A
responds by tapping Mother of Runes and giving his miscellaneous
creature protection from blue.

Since the miscellaneous creature is now an illegal target, is
Treachery countered on resolution (i.e. does the whole thing
fizzle) or can player B still untap up to five lands?

Treachery
{3}{U}{U}
Enchant Creature
When Treachery comes into play, if you played it from your hand,
untap up to five lands.
You control enchanted creature.

Mother of Runes
{W}
Creature -- Cleric
1/1
{T}: Target creature you control gains protection from the color
of your choice until end of turn.

Thanks!

- Dave

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Hello, Dave!
You wrote on Thu, 10 Jun 2004 09:27:13 -0500:

D> Hi all,

D> Player A has a miscellaneous creature in play. Player B plays
D> Treachery and attempts to enchant player A's creature. Player A
D> responds by tapping Mother of Runes and giving his miscellaneous
D> creature protection from blue.

D> Since the miscellaneous creature is now an illegal target, is
D> Treachery countered on resolution (i.e. does the whole thing
D> fizzle) or can player B still untap up to five lands?

Yes, local enchantment spells are targeted and can be countered on
resolution, just like you described. In this case, Treachery goes from
the stack to the graveyard.

D> Treachery
D> {3}{U}{U}
D> Enchant Creature
D> When Treachery comes into play, if you played it from your hand,
D> untap up to five lands.
D> You control enchanted creature.

Since Treachery never "comes into play" in your example (rather going
straight to the owner's graveyard) the "untap up to five lands" ability
(which never even existed - there was not a permanent in play with such
ability) doesn't trigger.

D> Mother of Runes
D> {W}
D> Creature -- Cleric
D> 1/1
D> {T}: Target creature you control gains protection from the color
D> of your choice until end of turn.

D> Thanks!

D> - Dave



Regards,
Arkady.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Dave <im@not.telling> sent:
> Hi all,

> Player A has a miscellaneous creature in play. Player B plays
> Treachery and attempts to enchant player A's creature.

Selecting player A's creature as target, paying 3UU.

> Player A
> responds by tapping Mother of Runes and giving his miscellaneous
> creature protection from blue.

Good call, as long as Mom was in play and not summon-sick, that works
just fine.

> Since the miscellaneous creature is now an illegal target, is
> Treachery countered on resolution (i.e. does the whole thing
> fizzle) or can player B still untap up to five lands?

Treachery will be countered on resolution, and not come into play;
consequently, its ability that triggers on it coming into play (if
played from hand) won't trigger.

The same thing occurs with the spells that untap the lands as part of
their resolution, such as Rewind - if I play a spell, and my opponent
casts Rewind on it, and I then Memory Lapse my spell, the Rewind will
be countered on resolution for illegal target and none of its effect
will happen - including the untapping of the lands.

Rewind {2}{U}{U} Instant
/ Counter target spell, then untap up to four lands.

Memory Lapse {1}{U} Instant
/ Counter target spell. If you do, put it on top of its owner's library
instead of into that player's graveyard.

Basic gist is - if the spell gets countered, none of the stuff that
would normally happen actually happens.

--
-- zoe

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 09:27:13 -0500, Dave <im@not.telling> wrote:
>Player A has a miscellaneous creature in play. Player B plays
>Treachery and attempts to enchant player A's creature. Player A
>responds by tapping Mother of Runes and giving his miscellaneous
>creature protection from blue.

The Treachery spell will then be countered on resolution, since its only
target has become illegal in response.

>Since the miscellaneous creature is now an illegal target, is
>Treachery countered on resolution (i.e. does the whole thing
>fizzle) or can player B still untap up to five lands?

The spell is countered. Countered spells that WOULD create permanents have
no effect, and go to the graveyard from the stack; they never make it into
play. Thus Treachery's ability which triggers "when Treachery comes into play"
never gets to trigger at all, let alone wait on the stack for responses after
Treachery is in play, or resolve and have ITS effect.

No land untapping.

>Treachery 3UU Enchant Creature
> When ~ comes into play, if you played it from your hand, untap up to five
> lands. / You control enchanted creature.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

[Dave]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

"David DeLaney" <dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote in message
news:slrncchskf.tdi.dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com...
> On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 09:27:13 -0500, Dave <im@not.telling> wrote:
> >Player A has a miscellaneous creature in play. Player B plays
> >Treachery and attempts to enchant player A's creature. Player A
> >responds by tapping Mother of Runes and giving his miscellaneous
> >creature protection from blue.
>
> The Treachery spell will then be countered on resolution, since its only
> target has become illegal in response.
>
> >Since the miscellaneous creature is now an illegal target, is
> >Treachery countered on resolution (i.e. does the whole thing
> >fizzle) or can player B still untap up to five lands?
>
> The spell is countered. Countered spells that WOULD create permanents have
> no effect, and go to the graveyard from the stack; they never make it into
> play. Thus Treachery's ability which triggers "when Treachery comes into play"
> never gets to trigger at all, let alone wait on the stack for responses after
> Treachery is in play, or resolve and have ITS effect.
>
> No land untapping.
>
> >Treachery 3UU Enchant Creature
> > When ~ comes into play, if you played it from your hand, untap up to five
> > lands. / You control enchanted creature.

What if instead of saying "When ~ comes into play", it just said,
"Untap up to five lands". Would you now get to untap the lands
since there's no longer any comes into play requirement?

- Dave

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Dave <im@not.telling> wrote:
>> > When ~ comes into play, if you played it from your hand, untap up to five
>> > lands. / You control enchanted creature.
>
>What if instead of saying "When ~ comes into play", it just said,
>"Untap up to five lands". Would you now get to untap the lands
>since there's no longer any comes into play requirement?

No; again, a countered spell _has no effects at all_ of any sort. It goes
from the stack directly to the graveyard, without resolving in any way.

Plus which, nonSorcery nonInstant spells don't -have-, in general, effects
on resolution _other_ than "put permanent into play". Some of the cards
have abilities that modify HOW to put the permanent into play - "tapped",
"with these counters", "under Foo's control", "as a copy of Bar", etc. None
of them have a separate effect of the Enchantment/Artifact/Creature spell
that's something other than "put it into play as a permanent" (which usually
isn't even stated on the card, it's in the rulebook).

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

[Dave]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

"David DeLaney" <dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote in message
news:slrnccjquc.lqp.dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com...
> Dave <im@not.telling> wrote:
> >> > When ~ comes into play, if you played it from your hand, untap up to five
> >> > lands. / You control enchanted creature.
> >
> >What if instead of saying "When ~ comes into play", it just said,
> >"Untap up to five lands". Would you now get to untap the lands
> >since there's no longer any comes into play requirement?
>
> No; again, a countered spell _has no effects at all_ of any sort. It goes
> from the stack directly to the graveyard, without resolving in any way.
>
> Plus which, nonSorcery nonInstant spells don't -have-, in general, effects
> on resolution _other_ than "put permanent into play". Some of the cards
> have abilities that modify HOW to put the permanent into play - "tapped",
> "with these counters", "under Foo's control", "as a copy of Bar", etc. None
> of them have a separate effect of the Enchantment/Artifact/Creature spell
> that's something other than "put it into play as a permanent" (which usually
> isn't even stated on the card, it's in the rulebook).

Thanks everyone for the answers.

I'm assuming this would apply to abilities as well. For example:

Savage Gorilla
{4}{G}
Creature -- Ape
3/3
{U}{B}, {T}, Sacrifice Savage Gorilla: Target creature gets -3/-3
until end of turn. Draw a card.

If the creature the Savage Gorilla targeted became untargetable,
you wouldn't get to draw the card then, correct?

- Dave

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

David DeLaney <dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote:

> Some of the cards
> have abilities that modify HOW to put the permanent into play - "tapped",
> "with these counters", "under Foo's control", "as a copy of Bar", etc.

Or the classic "If Phyrexian Dreadnought would come into play...."

But yes, there are no permanents with a side effect stated simply.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Dave <im@not.telling> wrote:

> Savage Gorilla
> {4}{G}
> Creature -- Ape
> 3/3
> {U}{B}, {T}, Sacrifice Savage Gorilla: Target creature gets -3/-3
> until end of turn. Draw a card.
>
> If the creature the Savage Gorilla targeted became untargetable,
> you wouldn't get to draw the card then, correct?

Yes, because the ability is countered.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Dave sez:

<<
>> >Treachery 3UU Enchant Creature
>> > When ~ comes into play, if you played it from your hand, untap up to five
>> > lands. / You control enchanted creature.
>
>What if instead of saying "When ~ comes into play", it just said,
>"Untap up to five lands".
>
>>

It would then be totally useless, because there's no timing on it. WHEN do you
untap up to five lands? when the creature comes under your control? When
Treachery leaves play? When the creature leaves play?

That wording works on instants and sorceries because there's only one time
anything happens on them: When the spell resolves.


----
"If President Bush is going to take credit for 'the invisble hand' [of
economics], then he's going to take the blame when 'the hand' gives him the
finger."
--From Fark.com

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On 11 Jun 2004 16:50:22 GMT, djaxmann@aol.computer (Andy Jakcsy)
wrote:

>Dave sez:
>
><<
>>> >Treachery 3UU Enchant Creature
>>> > When ~ comes into play, if you played it from your hand, untap up to five
>>> > lands. / You control enchanted creature.
>>
>>What if instead of saying "When ~ comes into play", it just said,
>>"Untap up to five lands".

>It would then be totally useless, because there's no timing on it. WHEN do you
>untap up to five lands? when the creature comes under your control? When
>Treachery leaves play? When the creature leaves play?
>
>That wording works on instants and sorceries because there's only one time
>anything happens on them: When the spell resolves.

It could say: "When ~ resolves", but that would just be a different
way of saying: "When ~ comes into play".

Another possibility would be: "When ~ is played", which should work
just like the "when you cycle ~" triggers as seen on eg. Slice and
Dice and Decree of X. The extra effect trigger just after the original
spell hits the stack - the extra effect can still be countered (using
Stifle and the like), but it would be independent of whether the spell
itself is countered.
For example Storm works like this - first it spawns a new effect, and
when that effect resolves it puts a bunch of copies on the stack.

Storm (When you play this spell, copy it for each spell played before
it this turn. You may choose new targets for the copies.)

--
Regards
Simon Nejmann

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 12:54:52 -0500, Dave wrote:

>I'm assuming this would apply to abilities as well. For example:
>
>Savage Gorilla
>{4}{G}
>Creature -- Ape
>3/3
>{U}{B}, {T}, Sacrifice Savage Gorilla: Target creature gets -3/-3
>until end of turn. Draw a card.
>
>If the creature the Savage Gorilla targeted became untargetable,
>you wouldn't get to draw the card then, correct?

Yes. The ability will be countered upon resolution because all of its
targets are illegal, so it won't do anything at all. You won't draw a
card from it.

Ingo Kemper
--
__ _ __ __ __ __
__/ /_/ \/ /_/____/_ |___SkyGlider@uni-muenster.de___---===> \
/_/ /_/\_/ |__/ |__/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---===>__/

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Dave <im@not.telling> wrote:
>> No; again, a countered spell _has no effects at all_ of any sort. It goes
>> from the stack directly to the graveyard, without resolving in any way.
>
>I'm assuming this would apply to abilities as well. For example:

Right.

>Savage Gorilla 4G Creature -- Ape
>3/3 UB,Tap,Sacrifice ~: Target creature gets -3/-3 until end of turn. Draw a
> card.
>
>If the creature the Savage Gorilla targeted became untargetable,
>you wouldn't get to draw the card then, correct?

Right. That's all one ability; it has one target; if the target becomes
illegal in response, the ability gets countered on resolution, rather than
resolving. No effect. Not "the targetted part has no effect" - the entire
ability is countered. (If there's more than one target, the ability or spell
gets countered if ALL the targets are illegal on resolution.)

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

David DeLaney (dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com) wrote:
: Dave <im@not.telling> wrote:

: >Savage Gorilla 4G Creature -- Ape
: >3/3 UB,Tap,Sacrifice ~: Target creature gets -3/-3 until end of turn. Draw a
: > card.
: >
: >If the creature the Savage Gorilla targeted became untargetable,
: >you wouldn't get to draw the card then, correct?

: Right. That's all one ability; it has one target; if the target becomes
: illegal in response, the ability gets countered on resolution, rather than
: resolving. No effect. Not "the targetted part has no effect" - the entire
: ability is countered. (If there's more than one target, the ability or spell
: gets countered if ALL the targets are illegal on resolution.)

If the intent was for the "Draw a card" part of the ability to function
independently of the other part, how would this have to be worded?
(In other words, how could it be set up such that you'd draw the card
regardless of whether the -3/-3 happened or even if there were no
targetable creatures?)

Though I know they're linked, having the ability's wording broken into
2 separate sentences like that certainly makes it *look* like they're
independent...


Keith

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

uj551@vtn1.victoria.tc.ca (Keith Piddington) writes:
> David DeLaney (dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com) wrote:
> : Dave <im@not.telling> wrote:
> : >Savage Gorilla 4G Creature -- Ape
> : >3/3 UB,Tap,Sacrifice ~: Target creature gets -3/-3 until end of
> : >turn. Draw a card.
> : >
> : >If the creature the Savage Gorilla targeted became untargetable,
> : >you wouldn't get to draw the card then, correct?
> :
> : Right. That's all one ability; it has one target; if the target
> : becomes illegal in response, the ability gets countered on
> : resolution, rather than resolving.
>
> If the intent was for the "Draw a card" part of the ability to function
> independently of the other part, how would this have to be worded?
> (In other words, how could it be set up such that you'd draw the card
> regardless of whether the -3/-3 happened or even if there were no
> targetable creatures?)

It'd probably need to be worded something like the Oracle wording for
Gilded Drake, saying that it can't be countered. (They could probably
word it as just "can't be countered by the rules for having illegal
targets", if they wanted Stifle and the like to work on it.)

,----[ Oracle ]
| Gilded Drake
| {1}{U}
| Creature -- Drake
| 3/3
| Flying
| When Gilded Drake comes into play, choose one -- sacrifice Gilded
| Drake; or exchange control of Gilded Drake and target creature an
| opponent controls. If you can't make the exchange, sacrifice Gilded
| Drake. This ability can't be countered. (This effect doesn't end at
| end of turn.)
`----

> Though I know they're linked, having the ability's wording broken
> into 2 separate sentences like that certainly makes it *look* like
> they're independent...

Well, many things in Magic don't work exactly the way they might look
to new players... There's enough complicated card interactions that
you really need forums like this one to answer these kinds of
questions.

--
Peter C.
"The chocolate chip cookie shall be the official cookie of the
commonwealth."
-- Mass. General Law, Chapter 2, Section 42.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Keith Piddington <uj551@vtn1.victoria.tc.ca> wrote:
>David DeLaney (dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com) wrote:
>: >Savage Gorilla 4G Creature -- Ape
>: >3/3 UB,Tap,Sacrifice ~: Target creature gets -3/-3 until end of turn. Draw a
>: > card.
>
>: Right. That's all one ability; it has one target; if the target becomes
>: illegal in response, the ability gets countered on resolution, rather than
>: resolving. No effect. Not "the targetted part has no effect" - the entire
>: ability is countered. (If there's more than one target, the ability or spell
>: gets countered if ALL the targets are illegal on resolution.)
>
>If the intent was for the "Draw a card" part of the ability to function
>independently of the other part, how would this have to be worded?

As a separate, probably-triggered, ability. "When you sacrifice ~ to its own
ability, draw a card."

>(In other words, how could it be set up such that you'd draw the card
>regardless of whether the -3/-3 happened or even if there were no
>targetable creatures?)

By making it a separate ability that -only- drew a card, and, because you
are specifically not caring about whether the first ability resolves, making
it trigger off announcement.

There isn't a way to make it happen "even if there were no targettable
creatures", without changing the FIRST ability to be an untargetted ability;
if there's no legal targets you're not allowed to even ANNOUNCE that ability,
so there's not any way to trigger off "I want to use this ability now but the
game's rules are not allowing me to".

>Though I know they're linked, having the ability's wording broken into
>2 separate sentences like that certainly makes it *look* like they're
>independent...

Nope. Separate -paragraphs- on the card (or, more precisely, separate long
lines in its Oracle text) make separate abilities. One ability can have
_several_ sentences in its effect.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.