Truform emulated on 9X00s

kinney

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I was playing some CS and trying to turn on truform but when looking up how to do that I read at a forum that the 9x00 series only have the feature through software emu?

Please tell me I'm wrong.
Also does anyone know the command to turn it on?
Some people were complaining how their 9700pro was slower than their old GF2 in CS with it enabled.

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phial

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this im confused on also..

some places say its done in software, and yet other places i read say that teh 9x00 radeons have Truform2 of sorts, a more advanced high order surfacing technique that looks more realistic...


wtf? someone clarify this?

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i hate to admit but im a worthless lying idiot jackass
- scamtron
 
From what I know (which admittedly is little) about the application of trueform is that it is supported in hardware, but in order to turn it on you have to use software patches, since using the sliders in the control panel doesn't appear to activate it.
That is at least the case for Morrowind. You have to activate the 3rd-party patch in order to make it work. That's my understanding of it.

<b>Phial</b>, didn't you post a link to the Morrowind patch a while back (I know someone here did, that's how I found out how to activate it).


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Willamette_sucks

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It makes sense (that either the 9x00 series dosn't support truform in hardware, or has a different kind) because the 8500 was much more efficient with it. Turning on truform in ut2k3 lowers the framerate alot with my 9800 Pro, compared to my friends 9000 which it dosn't make a very big impact on.

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TKS

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FYI for those that don't know: Truform II adds more triangles to the polygons for 3D rendering AND it is NOT supported 100% in <b>hardware</b> in the 9700 Pro (which to me states in the 9500 Pro and 9800 Pro either).

I imagine that the new Cat 3.8's will probably kick in with a way to fully use Truform II, thus making tessellation smooth as strawberry icecream. Until then, you all were correct in thinking that there needed to be a patch or driver to fully use it. The reason being that there is no fixed Integer based tessellation levels in Truform II as there is in Truform I. So, it is a better choice both in expense (they'd need to add more chips if they hardware enabled it) for the user and production expense...as well as a better choice for performance.

Is it possible with a driver to 'enable' it? I would think so...otherwise, ATI was lying to us saying it could fully utilize Truform II. The main reason it wasn't enabled in the first place being...it is new technology and is reserved strictly for DX9. That said, I would look for drivers to enable it when DX9 becomes a standard in games.

The 8500 has 100% Truform <i>I</i> enabled...which made things a bit more smooth when it came out...but there should be a massive improvement on the DX9 standard when truform II kicks in. Remember that the farther away an object gets with Truform II, the less tessellation it will recieve...it isn't a FIXED level of tessellation like in Truform I...so when this kicks in, it will increase Framerates as well WITHOUT ANY VISUAL QUALITY SACRIFICE@!@# Like I said, perhaps this is what ATI has planned for the Cat 3.8's and why there is such a hype with them....if so, it would improve performance EVEN MORE over Nvidia AND it would look much, much better as well. I hope I'm right.

To give you a preview of the kind of performance increase we can expect with DX9 and Truform II...compare it to how Truform improved quality in an older game...HL: CS. Imagine HL CS with an older GF3..then take a look at it with an 8500. Notice how blocky the heads are with the GF? The 8500 (w/ Truform I) used a hardware encoded tessellation process to smooth out the rough edges. Now imagine what's going to happen when Truform II kicks in with the 9X00 series. The thing that tantalizes me is that the cat 3.8's are scheduled for release about the same time HL2 is going to come out....coincidence? :p I think they're going to enable full truform II and open up a can of TruWhoopArse!

PS: To get back to the original post...I don't know if the 9X00 series will be able to utilize Truform I in leiu of Truform II or in addition to...or whatever. So are they backwards compatible? Probably would be a good question for some ATI guru or driver beta tester.

<b><i>Nvidia,</i> the way it's meant to be benchmarked.</b>

TKS<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by TKS on 09/23/03 08:13 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
 

phsstpok

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Is it possible with a driver to 'enable' it? I would think so...otherwise, ATI was lying to us saying it could fully utilize Truform II. The main reason it wasn't enabled in the first place being...it is new technology and is reserved strictly for DX9. That said, I would look for drivers to enable it when DX9 becomes a standard in games.
I like that explanation. It makes sense.

Just a point of logic (not from real knowledge), it would not make any sense to have Truform in software, in any percentage. That would mean the CPU would have to produce more triangles for models. Would this even be possible in real-time?

<b>56K, slow and steady does not win the race on internet!</b>
 
Phial yeah but your link included the info for the Parhelia as well, and the patch ALSO works on the R9XXX cards, I downlaoded it to use on the R9600P.

In any case I thought it was supposed tobe the same with them. I think TKS likely has it. We shall see. I really like the concept though and hope it is carried over, especially if it's at no performance hit.


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cleeve

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Is hardware tesselation part of the DirectX 9 spec?

I thought it was just a 'value added' feature that Ati offered.

I think that displacement mapping is part of DirectX 9, but I didn't think that tesselation was.

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kinney

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Thank you very much.

It be correct to say that Truform 1 hardware acceleration is NOT in R300 based VPUs.
So that would explain why you get the huge performance loss when enabling truform1 in supported games.. because the hardware that was in the 8500 is not there.

And from what I gathered, truform 2.0 requires the power of a r300 based vpu so though its possible that a 8500 or other card could do it, it would not be worthwhile.. much like faking truform 1 on a r300+.

If I took you wrong please let me know, I want to get my facts straight.

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TKS

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I know it is part of <A HREF="http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/directx9_c/directx/graphics/programmingguide/advancedtopics/VertexPipe/Tessellation.asp" target="_new">DX9 (tessellation section)</A>. But it has to be set to 'enable' in the driver for it to utilize tessellation....so you are right in that it can only be in the hardware. It has to have that software "switch" that microsoft sets as D3DRS_ENABLEADAPTIVETESSELLATION = True and then it will tessellate in four orders...

1st order=Linear
2nd order=Quadratic
3rd order=Cubic
4th order=Quintic
and the last setting is Force_Dword (which forces 32 bit)

So, it has a software switch but a hardware encoding. Looks like the 3.8's might 'switch' it on eh? Wonder what kind of performance boost we'll get from it. Probably at least another 25%...otherwise they wouldn't be all giddy about them when they mentioned them. :p

<b><i>Nvidia,</i> the way it's meant to be benchmarked.</b>
 

TKS

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No, you're right. In fact, I think you hit it on the head. Why they didn't make this backwards compatible I don't know. But I think it is safe to say that the R300 may not have Truform I....I get a performance loss as well with my 9500 Pro. But Truform II kicks the hell out of Truform I anyways and will fully utilize DX9 (check my other post) so who cares right?

<b><i>Nvidia,</i> the way it's meant to be benchmarked.</b>
 

phial

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Turning on truform in ut2k3 lowers the framerate alot with my 9800 Pro, compared to my friends 9000 which it dosn't make a very big impact on

thats wierd, because one of teh ways that ATI made the 9000 cheaper to produce was by removing hardware truform


o_O!

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phial

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The 8500 has 100% Truform I enabled...which made things a bit more smooth when it came out...but there should be a massive improvement on the DX9 standard when truform II kicks in. Remember that the farther away an object gets with Truform II, the less tessellation it will recieve...it isn't a FIXED level of tessellation like in Truform I...so when this kicks in, it will increase Framerates as well WITHOUT ANY VISUAL QUALITY SACRIFICE@!@# Like I said, perhaps this is what ATI has planned for the Cat 3.8's and why there is such a hype with them


yehh!!! yeah in my original thread months ago about Truform i was amazed at what an incredible visual boost it gave without actually requiring higher quality models


i wish that Truform was used more widely .. it cetainly helps Counter Strike , and that is hella old.

another reason i love ATI : truly innovative future-looking technolgies

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i hate to admit but im a worthless lying idiot jackass
- scamtron
 

kinney

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I've always wanted truform since I bought a GF3 over a 8500..
its nice to have tech that improves older (and better) games as well as new.

Im really starting to warm up to ATI myself... being a longtime NV user.

ATIs needle feels alot better in my vein. :smile:

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eden is my intel/ati superboy
 
Seriously dude, you're the one who made me go.. "<b>DAMN</b>, I gotta try THAT on Morrowind!".

And I'd like to thank you again, <A HREF="http://www.morrowind.nm.ru/Morrowind FPS Optimizer/pics.html" target="_new">that link</A> changed my thinking on a technology I knew little about.


And <b>kinney</b>, you are now one of the fold, report to the mother ship in Thornhill(Markham) Ontario, for further instructions. :wink:


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Willamette_sucks

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Oops did I say 9000 I meant 8500. I have another friend with a 9000 and, yes, he can't even use truform.

"Mice eat cheese." - Modest Mouse

"Every Day is the Right Day." -Pink Floyd