Uninterruptable Power Supply Question

Etta79

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So, I built my pc a few weeks ago and everything seems to be running great!

Now, I am constantly worried that we're going to have a power surge or something and that my shiny new precious will get fried.

Am I right to think that I should get an uninterruptable power supply? Can I plug my surge protector strip into the UPS and then have peace of mind? I just want something that will let me turn the pc off instead of having it crash when the power blips or goes out.

Is it unreasonable to think I can get a decent one for $100 - $150?

My PC, if it matters: http://pcpartpicker.com/p/383Dk
 
Hi

no need to plug a surge protect strip into a good quality UPS

Usually some sockets are surge protection only while others power you PC base unit & screen

Do you want to shutdown in say 5 minutes after power fails and survive brown outs or keep going for an hour or more ?
Older UPS used a serial port to communicate with PC, modern ones use USB

There are some cheap and cheerful UPS on the market
I bought one about 6 years ago, it lasted about 2 years.
I regret buying it as it used a cheap sealed battery which was not sealed and leaked corrosive liquid on my carpet

So I replaced it with a well known brand APC
one average high spec PC needs a UPS of rating 600 to 800 VA unless you want to run on battery for a long time

note VA is not the same as watts {due to power factor}

The battery life is 3 to max 4 years
Regular self tests tell you when to replace them

There are different classes of UPS if you are protecting a server or telecom system but the bottom of the range model of a major brand beats an unknown brand from China

regards
Mike Barnes
 

westom

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So you are replacing surge damaged clocks, dimmer switches, dishwashers, furnace, and smoke detectors how many times daily? How often do you have surges?

Appliances already contain robust surge protection. Learn that by viewing power that comes from so many UPSes when in battery backup mode. This 120 volt sine wave UPS outputs 200 volt square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts. Ideal voltage to any computer or other electronics due to what must already be inside.

Now, a typically destructive surge is maybe once every seven years. So your concern is that rare anomaly ... for everything. View numbers on your surge protector or that UPS. How many joules will it absorb? Hundreds? Destructive surges are hundreds of thousands of joules. Where is the protection?

Informed consumers earth something that is completely different, costs about $1 per protected appliance, unfortunately has a same name, and remains functional even after direct lightning strikes. Learn about what harmlessly absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules. And is the only surge protection solution, proven by over 100 years of science and experience, used in every facility that cannot have damage.

Every informed recommendation says where hundreds of thousands of joules are harmlessly absorbed (in earth). So that your computer and everything else is protected. To do what neither a many times more expensive UPS nor power strip claims to do.
 

Anaandrew01

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I think it is really important to go for UPS as soon as possible. UPS in it self has a surge protector in that it shields your computer from those little brownouts or flickers which we do not notice but which can wreak havoc on your computer.
 

westom

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Many recommend a UPS based in such advertising creates myths. Brownouts (a low voltage) is not a surge. Surges cause a high voltage (maybe thousands of volts). Numbers such as these separate many who recommend only on hearsay from the few who actually know how electricity and electcronics work.

Normal voltage from all electronics is even when incandescent bulbs dim to 50% intensity. How often do your lights dim that much? Where are these brownouts? They do not exist. Advertising creates a fear of something that does not exist.

Meanwhile international design standards even 50 years ago are quite clear about all low voltages (even brownouts). A chart about this even says this ih all capital letters. "No Damage Region". Brownouts do not damage electronics.

Low voltage may be harmful to motorized appliances. But low voltages (including brownouts) do not harm electronics. And again, surges and brownouts are two completely different anomalies. As a UPS manufacturer's spefication numbers demonstrate, a typical UPS does not claim to protect from destructive surges - and many other anomalies. Useful recommendation include numbers for each anomaly and that demonstrate a grasp of the technology.


 

MidnightDistort

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If your finding yourself in situations where your at your PC and your power shuts off (even for like 5 seconds) then a UPS is a good thing to have so you can close programs or just hibernate your PC (if enabled) and use it again when your power comes back on. While a good PSU can protect your equipment, i still have my PC hooked up to a surge protector. IMO even if surge protectors can't handle all power aliments i'd rather not take my chances and not have one hooked up. Besides, if you need a new power strip you might as well get a surge protector.
 

westom

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Conclusions based only in speculation are examples of junk science reasoning. An adjacent surge protector can even make equipment damage easier by bypassing protection inside a PSU. Furthermore, these undersized protectors have a history of creating house fires IF another and essential solution is not implemented. APC publically admitted to this long understood fire threat only last October.

Informed consumers earth something that is completely different, costs about $1 per protected appliance, unfortunately has a same name, and remains functional even after direct lightning strikes. Learn about what harmlessly absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules. And is the only surge protection solution, proven by over 100 years of science and experience, used in every facility that cannot have damage. This proven solution is necessary to even protect a UPS or power strip protector.

Best power strip is one without protector parts and with another critically important component - a circuit breaker. That circuit breaker and no protector parts increase human safety. Transistor safety is provided by spending less money on a superior, well proven, and properly earthed solution. A conclusion from first learning numbers and what a protector reallly does.
 

Anaandrew01

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Hi Weston, Thanks for your valuable suggestion in forum. Yes you are quite right that low voltage will not going to harm your systems performance a lot but sudden power break down will definitely harm the system. So it is a good idea to have UPS system for PC so that it will become easy to avoid sudden power break down and simultaneously it will also take care low voltage and high voltage.
 

westom

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When AC power is lost, then DC voltages only drop slowly. So where is this 'sudden' power off? More specificially, what part is damaged by a sudden power off?

International design standards state "No Damage Zone" for all voltages down to zero. All voltages down to zero (falling fast or slow) are listed in the no damage region. What in electroncs are damaged by sudden voltage change?

Same is true of high or low voltage. Voltage variations are already made irrelevant by the power supply. Why do we need a UPS to do what is already done by a PSU?

 
Hi

There is a big difference between no damage to computer components and no damage to your data
If you are in the middle of editing a document , you are likely to loose data between entry and last save or auto save
If the directory structure is being updated when power goes off you can have serious corruption

Ups for single home or small business is for data protection or the ability to work through a brown out without having to wait for the PC to re start

One of the most critical software actions is updating the PC bios
If this interrupted the motherboard may need a new bios chip or someone with the skill to flash a bios without un soldering the bios chip or unsoldering a modern miniture bios chip.

Maybe most people in countries with reliable electricity supplies don't need a ups
But some do

Regards
Mike Barnes
 

MidnightDistort

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Circuit breakers are a must and should be mandatory. I don't know what these people have done to creating house fires but it's most likely due to bad protectors but if a static shock can damage equipment i'd hate to see what a power surge would do, even a minor one. Computer technology is very easily prone to failure due to power surges or shocks - http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/everyday-tech/surge-protector4.htm

In the 20-25 years i have had surge protectors hooked up to PC's, never had a PSU fail on me i have seen PC's with fried PSU's and i often wonder what are people doing to have this happen (other then maybe the fact they had their equipment running during a lightning strike) which, in a electrical storm that would exceed every PSU and UPS and would still take out your PC in the process. But you don't need a big power surge to take out a PC, even really minor ones that don't damage your AC/Fridge can have an adverse affect on your computerized equipment. Most notably a reason why a hard drive, a magnetic device (besides the PSU) is the most common failure in a PC. Most people look at temps and how much they defrag or hours but voltage spikes can play a part too and many PSU's are cheap enough to 'get by' but not good enough to protect your home or equipment. But even with having more then 6 PCs with cheap PSU's none of them have failed, my most recent one had a fan failure (due to mechanical wear) which possibly has degraded the PSU's quality, but even after over a year of use it still works. I wonder what would have happened if i just hooked my PC direct to the wall or in a cheap power strip. It could just mean that all the homes i have been in have good wiring.. but i don't think there's such of a thing as perfect wiring and perfect voltage levels, at least now anyway.. and circuit breakers will keep your home safe, but it's not just about safety, it's about whether you want your equipment to last. The only high tech device i had go bad on me was my Super NES, that was either connected directly to the wall or a power strip.

 

westom

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That problem was solved over 20 years ago with better technology file systems. Power off does not damage saved data - unless, of course, you were using obsoletely technology FAT filesystems. FATxx was obsolete when Windows 98 and ME were introduced.. Power loss is only a threat to unsaved data. And not to any hardware.

A brownout that caused incandescent bulbs to dim to 50% intensity is still perfectly good voltage for electronics. How often do your lights dim to 50% intensity? Never? Then a UPS solves a problem that does not exist.

Justified is a warming about BIOS update. However most BIOS updates are rarely needed. A UPS is needed because you miight update a BIOS once in five years?

Hardware protection is about other anomalies that a UPS does not and cannot protect from. UPS is for protecting unsaved data.
 

westom

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Obviously power strips already have a circuit breaker ... that does nothing to avert fires created by protectors. Obvious once one learns what a 13 amp breaker or fuse does. And why a 'too slow' less than one amp thermal fuse means fire.

Unfortunately, a "How Stuff Works" ("HSW") citation has many myths and misinformation. Pages have been written about its many glaring inconsistencies. If you do not know what a circuit breaker does (relevant to this topic) and since you did not see many "HSW" inaccuracies, then you also would not know why grossly undersized power strips cause fires.

Did "HSW" forget to mention why a breaker and thermal fuse are different? Why would they forget that all so important fact?

No damage does not mean a grossly undersized power strip protected a PSU. In fact, a surge, too tiny to damage any PSU, can sometimes damage a grossly undersized protector. What at an appliance often is best protection? Circuits inside electronics or its PSU. Protection that can even be bypassed or compromised by an adjacent protector.

Your concern is a rare surge that might overwhelm existing protection inside appliances. No power strip claims to protect from that type of surge. Did "HSW" forgetto mention that?

Did you power strip do protection? If yes, then a long list of damaged appliances should include CFL bulbs, the refrigerator, clocks, RCDs, dishwasher, dimmer switches, and smoke detectors. No damage to those because no destructive surge existed.

What is necessary to have knowledge? Learn numbers. First indication that "HSW" is bogus - no numbers. Claims made without numbers are classic symptoms of junk science.

What numbers for a power strip protector claim better protection? How many joules? Destructive surges can be hundreds of thousands of joules. How many joules does that power strip claim to absorb? Hundreds? Damning number that say why power strips have created house fires (even firehouse fires). Because a thermal fuse (the emergency backup protection) did not react fast enough.

Defined (with numbers) was what must exist because even power strip protectors need that protection. Numbers that say why power strip protectors have created fires. Why did "HSW" forget to mention joules and fires?

A UPS, that is ideal power to a computer, may be harmful to motorized appliances (ie refrigerator). How can this be when others 'assume' a refrigerator is more robust? The assumption is promoted by hearsay from sources such as "HSW".
 

MidnightDistort

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Did you power strip do protection? If yes, then a long list of damaged appliances should include CFL bulbs, the refrigerator, clocks, RCDs, dishwasher, dimmer switches, and smoke detectors. No damage to those because no destructive surge existed.

Other then the refrigerator, which isn't really sensitive equipment (they just draw more power) none of those devices are sensitive equipment. When was the last time you had to change out the power supply on a refrigerator or an AC unit? By your reasoning PSU's shouldn't be failing at all when hooking up to the wall but plenty get old and fail before the rest of the hardware get's a chance to be upgraded. Those other devices work because they don't have a PSU that has to correct little power changes in the grid. If no destructive surge existed then PSU's should last as long as refrigerators, clocks, dishwasher, ect..

Some PSU's will fail due to their defectiveness or poorly built, but then again with my experience and my families experiences that surge protectors do in fact keep PC's from failing, not a single PSU or hard drive (other then mishandling and the rare new defective drive dying) has died. To be perfectly honest though, i've been through a few clocks and smoke detectors are supposed to be hooked up to batteries, not to the power to your house. And there is no way to circumvent the safety switches on a PSU unless you opened it up and tampered with it. Hook it up however you want (unless you don't properly ground it) it's not going to stop the PSU from functioning within specifications. Bottom line is that if surge protectors were unsafe or even no different then plugging it up to the wall it wouldn't be a demanding product for PCs and i have been proven that surge protectors do more good then simply hooking it to a wall or a cheap $5 power strip.

If you really do think or know they do more harm then good or don't do anything then i think you should find another way other then trying to convince others on a forum. You must be one of those people who thinks that global warming doesn't exist either or think that wind turbines takes up our planets wind source. I don't really care if you don't want to use a surge protector but i do because i want to protect my PC equipment. I don't want a bricked hard drive and a PSU to take out my hardware. I'd rather spend $30 on a device that probably won't do anything vs not having it and it could be saving my investments.
 

westom

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How often do you determine which part inside a power supply failed and why? We had to. Most power supply failures are unrelated to surges. Meanwhile, refrigerator motors and electronics found in refrigerators, stoves, dishwashers, etc also can be damaged (numbers provided later). Why is power from a 'dirty' UPS destructive to refrigerators and ideal for a PSU? This question was asked previously and ignored apparently. You only assume damage must be from a surge. Meanwhile, 'dirtiest' power is often from a UPS in battery backup mode. That can harm motorized appliances. And is ideal to all electronics. Because electronics are more robust.

Surge damage is often not to a PSU - as you only assumed. An adjacent power strip may bypass PSU protection to cause damage to other parts ... such as a modem or NIC. Learn how an adjacent protector can connect a surge directly to a motherboard. That should be obvious to anyone who has assembled a PC.

Apparently you only assume how often destructive surges exist. Maybe once every seven years. Less often in the UK. Why so many PSU failures? Numbers suggest most were manufacturing defects. Everyone knows a classic example. Counterfeit electrolytic capacitors that failed years later demonstrate how most PSUs fail - manufacturing defects. Speculated are surges that do not exist. However that is another urban myth from "How Stuff Works" (HSW). An obvious myth because it is made without numbers.

Unfortunately, your conclusions are based only in observation combined with speculation. Conclusions, without first learning fundamental concepts, is why junk science even promotes power strip protectors. Speculation even denies fires created by grossly undersized protectors (too few joules).

We replaced surge damaged semiconductors to make electronics fully functional. To learn why damage happened. To apply fundamental concepts necessary before making a conclusion. To trace the incoming and outgoing path of that surge current. So that a human mistake that created damage can be corrected.

Denials of house fires contradict reason. Numbers make obvious why grossly undersized power strips have even caused house fires. Protectors that fail catastrophically were only one thermal fuse away from fire. Do you learn from science, numbers, experience, and an engineer who did this stuff? Or is your knowledge only from salesmen, advertising, and "HSW" that avoids discussing fires. Read this:
https://forums.thefirepanel.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=6334
Or this:
http://www.kimbertonfire.org/content/safety/SurgeProtectors.cfm

How can that be when you deny risks only because you feel it must not exist? If you know otherwise, denials include spec numbers and information from datasheets. In fact, MOV manufacturers state why MOVs cause fires with specification numbers; when grossly undersized. Unfortunately, your only source appears to be a bogus and erroneous "HSW". That says you do not know how protectors work, how electricity works, what causes damage, how semiconductors work, and why computers are so robust.

Power strip protectors are effective when used in conjunction with a completely different and properly earthed solution. If not part of that larger system, then power strip protectors have compromised protection inside electronics ... as demontrated by tracing the resulting path from a protector to earth destructively via a network of PCs. We did not learn from "HSW". We literally identified each surge path by replacing destroyed semiconductors. Repeatedly demonstrated damage because that power strip protector was not earthed. The eliminated future damage by using the other and proven solution ... that also costs less money.

Assuming a refrigerator is more robust due to observation or speculation is junk science reasoning. If you know a refrigerator is more robust, then say so with numbers. How large is a surge voltage without damaging a refrigerator? Numbers you must provide for credibility.

Assuming a failed PSU is due to surges was also bogus. Since most PSU failures are due to manufacturing defects. And since destructive surges occur maybe once every seven years. And much less frequently in the UK. Worse, citing "HSW" indicates a recommendation is not backed by fundamental knowledge of what protectors do, what PSUs do, why a power strip can compromise protection already inside electronics, and what averts damage from hundreds of thousands of joules. Again, numbers that must exist and be discussed in a reply.

Again, for the OP:
a UPS claims even less protection than a power strip. Power strip does not claim to protect from typically destructive surges. That solution comes from other and more responsible companies including Keison. Other electrical anomalies require other solutions that are not discussed here.
 

bud--

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Excellent information on surges and surge protection is at:
http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/IEEE_Guide.pdf
- "How to protect your house and its contents from lightning: IEEE guide for surge protection of equipment connected to AC power and communication circuits" published by the IEEE in 2005 (the IEEE is a major organization of electrical and electronic engineers).
And also:
http://www.eeel.nist.gov/817/pubs/spd-anthology/files/Surges%20happen!.pdf
- "NIST recommended practice guide: Surges Happen!: how to protect the appliances in your home" published by the US National Institute of Standards and Technology in 2001

The IEEE surge guide is aimed at people with some technical background.


Learn - RTFM.
Any competent manufacturer will tell you all interconnected equipment has to be connected to the same protector. And all external connections (cable, phone, ...) must go through the protector.

Plug-in protectors protect by limiting the voltage from each wire to the ground at the protector. The voltage between wires going to the protected equipment is safe for the protected equipment.

The NIST surge guide suggests that most equipment damage is from high voltage between power and signal wires.


Both the IEEE and NIST surge guide "promote" plug-in protectors. Both say they are effective. (And both have a lot of other good information).

"Junk science" comes from westom.. He googles for "surge" to save the world from plug-in protectors. He has joined an astounding number of forums to spread his misinformation. (But some of what he says is quite good. Lots of luck figuring out which is which.)


Westom thinks all plug-in protectors are "grossly undersized".

The surge expert at the NIST, who wrote the NIST surge guide, investigated how much energy can reach the MOVs in a plug-in protector. Branch circuits were 10m and longer, and surges coming in on power wires were up to the maximum probable surge. The maximum energy was a surprisingly small 35 joules. In 13 of 15 cases it was 1 joule or less. (There are a couple reasons the energy is so small, if anyone is interested.)

Plug-in protectors with much higher ratings are readily available. A plug-in protector with high ratings, properly connected (as above), is likely to protect from a very near very strong surge.


Lacking valid technical arguments westom likes scare tactics.


"Numbers" reflect westom's lack of understanding of how plug-in protectors protect and how much energy can make it to a plug-in protector (detailed above).

UL listed plug-in protectors made since 1998 are required to have disconnects for overheating MOVS (the voltage limiting elements in the vast majority of protectors). Where is the massive record of fires?


APC recalled a bunch of protectors.

Ford recalled a bunch of trucks. Therefore all cars and trucks are dangerous and must not be used.


Was it UL listed?
Was it made after 1998?
What was the date?


Nonsense.

Some of them even have protected equipment warranties.

You can believe westom.
Or you can believe both the IEEE and NIST surge guides (both say plug-in protectors are effective).
One of them is wrong.