ups installation question

Rob

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Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

I've read about some ups's having their outlets too close to each
other. With that in mind, if I use my current stuff which is all
plugged into a surge protector (in a strip) and leave that as is and
just unplug this surge protector from the wall and plug it into the
ups (so I will therefore use just one outlet on this ups) and assuming
I use an adequate powered ups, will this be okay? I may elect to not
do this for some peripherals anyway like my scanner and printer. Or
must I separate all the devices plugged into the surge protector and
plug them separately in the ups? I will probably use at least a
300watt ups which seems to be adequate based on the Tripp Lite and APC
web sites.

Also not all ups's mention AVR. Is AVR that important for Houston,
Texas electricity?

I gather APC and Tripp Lite (sp??) are the best brands to go with?
 
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Do NOT plug a power strip into a UPS, particularly one with a surge
protector.

I have not read about "some ups's having their outlets too close to each
other" nor has that been my experience. Most UPSes include one or two
outlets for transformer blocks, so having enough space to plug things in
will not be a problem.

Any UPS designed for the SOHO market is also a surge protector. Some
recepticles provide battery backup and surge protection, while the rest
provide surge protection only. Do not plug a laser printer into a recepticle
with battery backup, since it draws too much energy. (Not sure if the same
applies to an inkjet.) Surge-protection-only recepticles are appropriate for
devices that don't require battery backup, like your speakers.

All this and much more is explained in detail on APC's web site (and other
manufacturer's too, I'm sure.)
--
Ted Zieglar
"You can do it if you try."

<Rob> wrote in message news:unggi198ar1bsfaa68oouh5du3qhbqjn2t@4ax.com...
> I've read about some ups's having their outlets too close to each
> other. With that in mind, if I use my current stuff which is all
> plugged into a surge protector (in a strip) and leave that as is and
> just unplug this surge protector from the wall and plug it into the
> ups (so I will therefore use just one outlet on this ups) and assuming
> I use an adequate powered ups, will this be okay? I may elect to not
> do this for some peripherals anyway like my scanner and printer. Or
> must I separate all the devices plugged into the surge protector and
> plug them separately in the ups? I will probably use at least a
> 300watt ups which seems to be adequate based on the Tripp Lite and APC
> web sites.
>
> Also not all ups's mention AVR. Is AVR that important for Houston,
> Texas electricity?
>
> I gather APC and Tripp Lite (sp??) are the best brands to go with?
 
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Ted Zieglar wrote:
>
> Do NOT plug a power strip into a UPS, particularly one with a surge
> protector.
>
> <snip>

I've always kept a (non surge protected) power strip, plugged into
my UPS, for little things like phone chargers, etc.

My thinking is (and tell me if I'm wrong) that if I don't exceed
the capacity of the UPS, no harm, no foul. Plugging (5) 1 amp
devices into a power strip should be no different than plugging
(1) 5 amp device into the same UPS outlet.

Notan
 
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On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 12:08:19 -0400, "Ted Zieglar" <teddyz@notmail.com>
wrote:

>Do NOT plug a power strip into a UPS, particularly one with a surge
>protector.

Why is the surge protector a no-no?
 
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Notan <notan@ddress.com> wrote in news:43285311.EE9E44DE@ddress.com:

> Ted Zieglar wrote:
>>
>> Do NOT plug a power strip into a UPS, particularly one with a surge
>> protector.
>>
>> <snip>
>
> I've always kept a (non surge protected) power strip, plugged into
> my UPS, for little things like phone chargers, etc.
>
> My thinking is (and tell me if I'm wrong) that if I don't exceed
> the capacity of the UPS, no harm, no foul. Plugging (5) 1 amp
> devices into a power strip should be no different than plugging
> (1) 5 amp device into the same UPS outlet.
>
> Notan


Notan,

From an Electrical Engineering standpoint, you are correct. For our
purpose, wattage is wattage, I don't care how you split it up. (Only
exception is when you get into the commercial and industrial arena when
you start worrying about power factors and reactances, but that's
insignificant in our context).


However, from a Human-Engineering standpoint, I agree with Ted. People
invariably get happy with the number of receptacles on the powerstrip
and overload the UPS. You'd be amazed what I've seen plugged into power
strips attached to small SOHO UPSs - lamps, televisions, VCRs, even
vacuum cleaners. For this reason alone, I always tell people "No Power
strips".

- FM -
 
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Explained by APC here:
http://tinyurl.com/ctmng

--
Ted Zieglar
"You can do it if you try."

"Notan" <notan@ddress.com> wrote in message
news:43285311.EE9E44DE@ddress.com...
> Ted Zieglar wrote:
> >
> > Do NOT plug a power strip into a UPS, particularly one with a surge
> > protector.
> >
> > <snip>
>
> I've always kept a (non surge protected) power strip, plugged into
> my UPS, for little things like phone chargers, etc.
>
> My thinking is (and tell me if I'm wrong) that if I don't exceed
> the capacity of the UPS, no harm, no foul. Plugging (5) 1 amp
> devices into a power strip should be no different than plugging
> (1) 5 amp device into the same UPS outlet.
>
> Notan
 
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"Ted Zieglar" <teddyz@notmail.com> wrote in message
news:HCYVe.43$nA1.2988077@news.sisna.com...
> Explained by APC here:
> http://tinyurl.com/ctmng
>

C'mon Ted APC is trying to sell PDU's... Have you priced one lately?

Look if you're running a bunch of servers in a rack or on a bench then I'd
say absolutely right... buy the proper PDUs and calculate you consumption
right so you don't over load the UPS. But for a home system? What's going
to be plugged in that you really need to worry about other then the PC and
maybe an external drive or two. Most SOHO UPS have at least two bat backup
plugs so put your PC into one of them and your monitor or external HD in the
other. If you need more plugs after that buy a good powerstrip and plug it
into the surge protected outlet. After all what does the average home owner
plug in after the PC and monitor? A cell phone charger, a cordless phone, a
desk lamp? Non of these need a steady or conditioned flow of electricity to
function.

The real story is, if you can avoid it then avoid it. Plug you PC and any
other vital device like a external HD directly into the UPCs protected
outlet. If you can't avoid it get yourself a good (not $6) powerstrip w/o
serge protection and plug it into the serge protected only outlets of your
UPS. I'll bet everything will work just fine.

--

Rob
 
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"Fred Mau" <fred-dot-mau@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Xns96D16C3606C87freddotmaucomcastnet@216.196.97.131...
> Notan <notan@ddress.com> wrote in news:43285311.EE9E44DE@ddress.com:
>
>> Ted Zieglar wrote:
>>>
>>> Do NOT plug a power strip into a UPS, particularly one with a surge
>>> protector.
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>
>> I've always kept a (non surge protected) power strip, plugged into
>> my UPS, for little things like phone chargers, etc.
>>
>> My thinking is (and tell me if I'm wrong) that if I don't exceed
>> the capacity of the UPS, no harm, no foul. Plugging (5) 1 amp
>> devices into a power strip should be no different than plugging
>> (1) 5 amp device into the same UPS outlet.
>>
>> Notan
>
>
> Notan,
>
> From an Electrical Engineering standpoint, you are correct. For our
> purpose, wattage is wattage, I don't care how you split it up. (Only
> exception is when you get into the commercial and industrial arena when
> you start worrying about power factors and reactances, but that's
> insignificant in our context).
>
>
> However, from a Human-Engineering standpoint, I agree with Ted. People
> invariably get happy with the number of receptacles on the powerstrip
> and overload the UPS. You'd be amazed what I've seen plugged into power
> strips attached to small SOHO UPSs - lamps, televisions, VCRs, even
> vacuum cleaners. For this reason alone, I always tell people "No Power
> strips".

Televisions? Vacuums? Well now that just plain stupid!!!! and if someone
is willing to do such a stupid thing then they deserve what they get. These
are the same people who plug 100,000 xmas tree lights into one single outlet
and wonder why the house burned down.

But the idea of using a powerstrip (properly) being bad just doesn't fly.
More over not being skeptical about an article published by a company who
produces PDUs that suggest that only a PDU should be used is almost as
stupid. If I were APC I'd make the same claim... Hell I'd sell more PDUs to
people who just simply don't need them by scaring them with a bunch of
technical mumbo jumbo that simply doesn't apply to their situation.

Again note that we're talking home users and single PCs not a hand full of
mission critical servers.

--

Rob
 
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"Robert R Kircher, Jr." wrote:
>
> "Fred Mau" <fred-dot-mau@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:Xns96D16C3606C87freddotmaucomcastnet@216.196.97.131...
> > Notan <notan@ddress.com> wrote in news:43285311.EE9E44DE@ddress.com:
> >
> >> Ted Zieglar wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Do NOT plug a power strip into a UPS, particularly one with a surge
> >>> protector.
> >>>
> >>> <snip>
> >>
> >> I've always kept a (non surge protected) power strip, plugged into
> >> my UPS, for little things like phone chargers, etc.
> >>
> >> My thinking is (and tell me if I'm wrong) that if I don't exceed
> >> the capacity of the UPS, no harm, no foul. Plugging (5) 1 amp
> >> devices into a power strip should be no different than plugging
> >> (1) 5 amp device into the same UPS outlet.
> >>
> >> Notan
> >
> >
> > Notan,
> >
> > From an Electrical Engineering standpoint, you are correct. For our
> > purpose, wattage is wattage, I don't care how you split it up. (Only
> > exception is when you get into the commercial and industrial arena when
> > you start worrying about power factors and reactances, but that's
> > insignificant in our context).
> >
> >
> > However, from a Human-Engineering standpoint, I agree with Ted. People
> > invariably get happy with the number of receptacles on the powerstrip
> > and overload the UPS. You'd be amazed what I've seen plugged into power
> > strips attached to small SOHO UPSs - lamps, televisions, VCRs, even
> > vacuum cleaners. For this reason alone, I always tell people "No Power
> > strips".
>
> Televisions? Vacuums? Well now that just plain stupid!!!! and if someone
> is willing to do such a stupid thing then they deserve what they get. These
> are the same people who plug 100,000 xmas tree lights into one single outlet
> and wonder why the house burned down.
>
> But the idea of using a powerstrip (properly) being bad just doesn't fly.
> More over not being skeptical about an article published by a company who
> produces PDUs that suggest that only a PDU should be used is almost as
> stupid. If I were APC I'd make the same claim... Hell I'd sell more PDUs to
> people who just simply don't need them by scaring them with a bunch of
> technical mumbo jumbo that simply doesn't apply to their situation.
>
> Again note that we're talking home users and single PCs not a hand full of
> mission critical servers.

Just for shits and giggles, I gave APC Tech Support a call.

Along the same lines as using only their PDUs, the tech said that, while he
didn't recommend using a power strip, if I *had* to, it should be an APC. <g>

Uuuhh, yeah.

Notan
 
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"Notan" <notan@ddress.com> wrote in message
news:43286ECD.A9A4F374@ddress.com...
> "Robert R Kircher, Jr." wrote:
>>
>> "Fred Mau" <fred-dot-mau@comcast.net> wrote in message
>> news:Xns96D16C3606C87freddotmaucomcastnet@216.196.97.131...
>> > Notan <notan@ddress.com> wrote in news:43285311.EE9E44DE@ddress.com:
>> >
>> >> Ted Zieglar wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Do NOT plug a power strip into a UPS, particularly one with a surge
>> >>> protector.
>> >>>
>> >>> <snip>
>> >>
>> >> I've always kept a (non surge protected) power strip, plugged into
>> >> my UPS, for little things like phone chargers, etc.
>> >>
>> >> My thinking is (and tell me if I'm wrong) that if I don't exceed
>> >> the capacity of the UPS, no harm, no foul. Plugging (5) 1 amp
>> >> devices into a power strip should be no different than plugging
>> >> (1) 5 amp device into the same UPS outlet.
>> >>
>> >> Notan
>> >
>> >
>> > Notan,
>> >
>> > From an Electrical Engineering standpoint, you are correct. For our
>> > purpose, wattage is wattage, I don't care how you split it up. (Only
>> > exception is when you get into the commercial and industrial arena when
>> > you start worrying about power factors and reactances, but that's
>> > insignificant in our context).
>> >
>> >
>> > However, from a Human-Engineering standpoint, I agree with Ted. People
>> > invariably get happy with the number of receptacles on the powerstrip
>> > and overload the UPS. You'd be amazed what I've seen plugged into power
>> > strips attached to small SOHO UPSs - lamps, televisions, VCRs, even
>> > vacuum cleaners. For this reason alone, I always tell people "No Power
>> > strips".
>>
>> Televisions? Vacuums? Well now that just plain stupid!!!! and if
>> someone
>> is willing to do such a stupid thing then they deserve what they get.
>> These
>> are the same people who plug 100,000 xmas tree lights into one single
>> outlet
>> and wonder why the house burned down.
>>
>> But the idea of using a powerstrip (properly) being bad just doesn't fly.
>> More over not being skeptical about an article published by a company who
>> produces PDUs that suggest that only a PDU should be used is almost as
>> stupid. If I were APC I'd make the same claim... Hell I'd sell more PDUs
>> to
>> people who just simply don't need them by scaring them with a bunch of
>> technical mumbo jumbo that simply doesn't apply to their situation.
>>
>> Again note that we're talking home users and single PCs not a hand full
>> of
>> mission critical servers.
>
> Just for shits and giggles, I gave APC Tech Support a call.
>
> Along the same lines as using only their PDUs, the tech said that, while
> he
> didn't recommend using a power strip, if I *had* to, it should be an APC.
> <g>
>
> Uuuhh, yeah.
>


LOL Well of course you should use a Genuine APC Power Strip/Serge
Protector... ;-) How silly you to think other wise.

That said, APC does make fabulous equipment. ALL my UPS's are APC and I
have all makes and models from big rack mount units to those SOHO bricks
that sit on the floor behind a desk.

I don't blame APC at all for doing everything possible to promote their
products. Where I have a problem is when people don't use simple common
since in regards to the propaganda.

--

Rob
 
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"Robert R Kircher, Jr." wrote:
>
> "Notan" <notan@ddress.com> wrote in message
> news:43286ECD.A9A4F374@ddress.com...
> > "Robert R Kircher, Jr." wrote:
> >>
> >> "Fred Mau" <fred-dot-mau@comcast.net> wrote in message
> >> news:Xns96D16C3606C87freddotmaucomcastnet@216.196.97.131...
> >> > Notan <notan@ddress.com> wrote in news:43285311.EE9E44DE@ddress.com:
> >> >
> >> >> Ted Zieglar wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Do NOT plug a power strip into a UPS, particularly one with a surge
> >> >>> protector.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> <snip>
> >> >>
> >> >> I've always kept a (non surge protected) power strip, plugged into
> >> >> my UPS, for little things like phone chargers, etc.
> >> >>
> >> >> My thinking is (and tell me if I'm wrong) that if I don't exceed
> >> >> the capacity of the UPS, no harm, no foul. Plugging (5) 1 amp
> >> >> devices into a power strip should be no different than plugging
> >> >> (1) 5 amp device into the same UPS outlet.
> >> >>
> >> >> Notan
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Notan,
> >> >
> >> > From an Electrical Engineering standpoint, you are correct. For our
> >> > purpose, wattage is wattage, I don't care how you split it up. (Only
> >> > exception is when you get into the commercial and industrial arena when
> >> > you start worrying about power factors and reactances, but that's
> >> > insignificant in our context).
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > However, from a Human-Engineering standpoint, I agree with Ted. People
> >> > invariably get happy with the number of receptacles on the powerstrip
> >> > and overload the UPS. You'd be amazed what I've seen plugged into power
> >> > strips attached to small SOHO UPSs - lamps, televisions, VCRs, even
> >> > vacuum cleaners. For this reason alone, I always tell people "No Power
> >> > strips".
> >>
> >> Televisions? Vacuums? Well now that just plain stupid!!!! and if
> >> someone
> >> is willing to do such a stupid thing then they deserve what they get.
> >> These
> >> are the same people who plug 100,000 xmas tree lights into one single
> >> outlet
> >> and wonder why the house burned down.
> >>
> >> But the idea of using a powerstrip (properly) being bad just doesn't fly.
> >> More over not being skeptical about an article published by a company who
> >> produces PDUs that suggest that only a PDU should be used is almost as
> >> stupid. If I were APC I'd make the same claim... Hell I'd sell more PDUs
> >> to
> >> people who just simply don't need them by scaring them with a bunch of
> >> technical mumbo jumbo that simply doesn't apply to their situation.
> >>
> >> Again note that we're talking home users and single PCs not a hand full
> >> of
> >> mission critical servers.
> >
> > Just for shits and giggles, I gave APC Tech Support a call.
> >
> > Along the same lines as using only their PDUs, the tech said that, while
> > he
> > didn't recommend using a power strip, if I *had* to, it should be an APC.
> > <g>
> >
> > Uuuhh, yeah.
> >
>
> LOL Well of course you should use a Genuine APC Power Strip/Serge
> Protector... ;-) How silly you to think other wise.
>
> That said, APC does make fabulous equipment. ALL my UPS's are APC and I
> have all makes and models from big rack mount units to those SOHO bricks
> that sit on the floor behind a desk.
>
> I don't blame APC at all for doing everything possible to promote their
> products. Where I have a problem is when people don't use simple common
> since in regards to the propaganda.

I, too, have the utmost faith in APC products.

Except, of course, when they tell me things like "You must use
APC cleaning solution to clean the exterior surfaces!" <g>

Notan
 
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"Robert R Kircher, Jr." <rrkircher@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:cISdnZdUS7Qd7rXeRVn-3w@giganews.com:

>
> That said, APC does make fabulous equipment. ALL my UPS's are APC and
> I have all makes and models from big rack mount units to those SOHO
> bricks that sit on the floor behind a desk.
>
> I don't blame APC at all for doing everything possible to promote
> their products. Where I have a problem is when people don't use simple
> common since in regards to the propaganda.
>


Personally, I used to prefer SOLA over APC, but SOLA seems to have vanished
from the marketplace, I haven't seen any in 4-5 years. Anybody know
whatever hapopened to them ? Are they still around under a different name ?
I run a SOLA Marathoner on my PowerEdge Servers.


I've also had good results with APCs larger units, especially the
rackmounts.

I've had mixed results with APC's smaller brick type units, the ones that
look like a large powerstrip with a gel cell built in. You have to stay on
top of keeping the batteries up to date, they tend to blow the circuit
boards if they try to recharge a bad battery. I don't know if there was a
particulary weak series among the bricks or if they were all like that.

- FM -
 
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Hey, my friend, I'm no electrical engineer. I follow what the manufacturer
tells me. And since SOHO UPS's are dirt cheap, I don't see a reason to split
hairs.

--
Ted Zieglar
"You can do it if you try."

"Robert R Kircher, Jr." <rrkircher@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:sOudndmK45iB_LXenZ2dnUVZ_s2dnZ2d@giganews.com...
> "Ted Zieglar" <teddyz@notmail.com> wrote in message
> news:HCYVe.43$nA1.2988077@news.sisna.com...
> > Explained by APC here:
> > http://tinyurl.com/ctmng
> >
>
> C'mon Ted APC is trying to sell PDU's... Have you priced one lately?
>
> Look if you're running a bunch of servers in a rack or on a bench then I'd
> say absolutely right... buy the proper PDUs and calculate you consumption
> right so you don't over load the UPS. But for a home system? What's
going
> to be plugged in that you really need to worry about other then the PC and
> maybe an external drive or two. Most SOHO UPS have at least two bat
backup
> plugs so put your PC into one of them and your monitor or external HD in
the
> other. If you need more plugs after that buy a good powerstrip and plug
it
> into the surge protected outlet. After all what does the average home
owner
> plug in after the PC and monitor? A cell phone charger, a cordless phone,
a
> desk lamp? Non of these need a steady or conditioned flow of electricity
to
> function.
>
> The real story is, if you can avoid it then avoid it. Plug you PC and any
> other vital device like a external HD directly into the UPCs protected
> outlet. If you can't avoid it get yourself a good (not $6) powerstrip w/o
> serge protection and plug it into the serge protected only outlets of your
> UPS. I'll bet everything will work just fine.
>
> --
>
> Rob
>
>
>
>
 
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Robert R Kircher, Jr. wrote:

> "Notan" <notan@ddress.com> wrote in message
> news:43286ECD.A9A4F374@ddress.com...
>
>>"Robert R Kircher, Jr." wrote:
>>
>>>"Fred Mau" <fred-dot-mau@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>>news:Xns96D16C3606C87freddotmaucomcastnet@216.196.97.131...
>>>
>>>>Notan <notan@ddress.com> wrote in news:43285311.EE9E44DE@ddress.com:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Ted Zieglar wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Do NOT plug a power strip into a UPS, particularly one with a surge
>>>>>>protector.
>>>>>>
>>>>>><snip>
>>>>>
>>>>>I've always kept a (non surge protected) power strip, plugged into
>>>>>my UPS, for little things like phone chargers, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>>My thinking is (and tell me if I'm wrong) that if I don't exceed
>>>>>the capacity of the UPS, no harm, no foul. Plugging (5) 1 amp
>>>>>devices into a power strip should be no different than plugging
>>>>>(1) 5 amp device into the same UPS outlet.
>>>>>
>>>>>Notan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Notan,
>>>>
>>>>From an Electrical Engineering standpoint, you are correct. For our
>>>>purpose, wattage is wattage, I don't care how you split it up. (Only
>>>>exception is when you get into the commercial and industrial arena when
>>>>you start worrying about power factors and reactances, but that's
>>>>insignificant in our context).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>However, from a Human-Engineering standpoint, I agree with Ted. People
>>>>invariably get happy with the number of receptacles on the powerstrip
>>>>and overload the UPS. You'd be amazed what I've seen plugged into power
>>>>strips attached to small SOHO UPSs - lamps, televisions, VCRs, even
>>>>vacuum cleaners. For this reason alone, I always tell people "No Power
>>>>strips".
>>>
>>>Televisions? Vacuums? Well now that just plain stupid!!!! and if
>>>someone
>>>is willing to do such a stupid thing then they deserve what they get.
>>>These
>>>are the same people who plug 100,000 xmas tree lights into one single
>>>outlet
>>>and wonder why the house burned down.
>>>
>>>But the idea of using a powerstrip (properly) being bad just doesn't fly.
>>>More over not being skeptical about an article published by a company who
>>>produces PDUs that suggest that only a PDU should be used is almost as
>>>stupid. If I were APC I'd make the same claim... Hell I'd sell more PDUs
>>>to
>>>people who just simply don't need them by scaring them with a bunch of
>>>technical mumbo jumbo that simply doesn't apply to their situation.
>>>
>>>Again note that we're talking home users and single PCs not a hand full
>>>of
>>>mission critical servers.
>>
>>Just for shits and giggles, I gave APC Tech Support a call.
>>
>>Along the same lines as using only their PDUs, the tech said that, while
>>he
>>didn't recommend using a power strip, if I *had* to, it should be an APC.
>><g>
>>
>>Uuuhh, yeah.
>
> LOL Well of course you should use a Genuine APC Power Strip/Serge
> Protector...

Great, no more gravy stains on my new suits!!

;)
 
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Shel <scs@XXXieee.org> wrote in news:5irgi19h7jrmtq1qod2ocv89ncrelqc5s2@
4ax.com:

> On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 12:08:19 -0400, "Ted Zieglar" <teddyz@notmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>Do NOT plug a power strip into a UPS, particularly one with a surge
>>protector.
>
> Why is the surge protector a no-no?
>
>


Surge protectors generally have a combination of Toroids and Varistors
that could - theoretically - have a reactance which would change the
power factor (That is, the phase shift between the voltage and current
curves on the sine wave) in ways that MIGHT cause the UPS circuitry to
not operate correctly, either by not kicking in at all or kicking in
when it shouldn't. When small SOHO UPSs started appearing in the '80s,
there were stories of this causing premature failures and even fires in
an instance or two, but AFAIK totally unproven - I think they were just
grasping at straws and didn't have anything ELSE to blame the failures
on.

When I was with a previous employer, we deliberately popped some UPSs by
changing the power factor, not specifically to test the UPS but just to
analyze how our downstream equipment would handle it and as part of our
UL/ETL listing requirements. But we were at power factors and
reflectance waveforms that you would NEVER see in the real world.

For all practical purposes, this ISN'T going to happen in a SOHO
environment with one power strip plugged into a UPS. In a commercial
office building where I might have hundreds (or thousands) of surge
protectors connected to a central power source, I *might* start to think
about it.

- FM -
 
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"Ted Zieglar" <teddyz@notmail.com> wrote in message
news:pH_Ve.69$O43.3839104@news.sisna.com...
> Hey, my friend, I'm no electrical engineer. I follow what the manufacturer
> tells me. And since SOHO UPS's are dirt cheap, I don't see a reason to
> split
> hairs.

It's not the SOHO UPS cost its the PDU cost.

You're right however, no need to split hairs. I just get a bit miffed when
people give out advice based on what the manufacture says especially when
that manufacture manufactures the device suggested by the manufacture. Say
that 3 time fast. ;-) Its in their best interest to imply that their
product is the only product that should be used.

As I said in my OP. If you can avoid it then by all means avoid it, but IMO
common since dictates that an non over loaded power strip plugged into a UPS
shouldn't harm the UPS or the equipment plugged in to it.

--

Rob
 
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"Fred Mau" <fred-dot-mau@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Xns96D18111AF2D1freddotmaucomcastnet@216.196.97.131...
> "Robert R Kircher, Jr." <rrkircher@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:cISdnZdUS7Qd7rXeRVn-3w@giganews.com:
>
>>
>> That said, APC does make fabulous equipment. ALL my UPS's are APC and
>> I have all makes and models from big rack mount units to those SOHO
>> bricks that sit on the floor behind a desk.
>>
>> I don't blame APC at all for doing everything possible to promote
>> their products. Where I have a problem is when people don't use simple
>> common since in regards to the propaganda.
>>
>
>
> Personally, I used to prefer SOLA over APC, but SOLA seems to have
> vanished
> from the marketplace, I haven't seen any in 4-5 years. Anybody know
> whatever hapopened to them ? Are they still around under a different name
> ?


SOLA??? Don't they make Styrofoam cups and other paper products? ;-)

--

Rob
 
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"Robert R Kircher, Jr." <rrkircher@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:KpadnY_FSJdBGbXeRVn-ow@giganews.com...
>
> "Fred Mau" <fred-dot-mau@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:Xns96D18111AF2D1freddotmaucomcastnet@216.196.97.131...
> > "Robert R Kircher, Jr." <rrkircher@hotmail.com> wrote in
> > news:cISdnZdUS7Qd7rXeRVn-3w@giganews.com:
> >
> >>
> >> That said, APC does make fabulous equipment. ALL my UPS's are APC and
> >> I have all makes and models from big rack mount units to those SOHO
> >> bricks that sit on the floor behind a desk.
> >>
> >> I don't blame APC at all for doing everything possible to promote
> >> their products. Where I have a problem is when people don't use simple
> >> common since in regards to the propaganda.
> >>
> >
> >
> > Personally, I used to prefer SOLA over APC, but SOLA seems to have
> > vanished
> > from the marketplace, I haven't seen any in 4-5 years. Anybody know
> > whatever hapopened to them ? Are they still around under a different
name
> > ?
>
>
> SOLA??? Don't they make Styrofoam cups and other paper products? ;-)
>
> --
>
> Rob

But they do it solo :)

So, now who's been spending to much time in the break room?

KC
 
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Appreciate the integrity - basic technical knowledge - of so
many replies. For example, to meet UL standards, a power
strip must be able to provide 15 amps to any one receptacle OR
provide the total of 15 amps to all the receptacles. If any
receptacle is 'starved' for current, then a fire hazard exists
inside the power strip - it does not get a UL rating. However
another provided this app note from APC:
http://tinyurl.com/ctmng
> Using surge strips with APC's Back-UPS and Smart-UPS products.
> Surge protectors filter the power for surges and offer EMI/RFI
> filtering but do not efficiently distribute the power, meaning
> that some equipment may be deprived of the necessary amperage it
> requires to run properly – causing your attached equipment
> (computer, monitor, etc) to shutdown or reboot.

Are we to believe the EMI/RFI filtering starves some
receptacle with insufficient current? Who writes this stuff?
Well APC is promoted to those who don't have even basic
electrical knowledge which is why some foolishly praise APC
products.

Now for the electrical reasons why a power strip should not
be used on UPS outputs. Those UPSes imply they provided
cleaner power. So lets now do the numbers - what those so
many other posters never provided. This 120V UPS in battery
backup mode outputs two 200 volts square waves with up to a
270 volt spike between those square waves. The UPS
manufacturer calls that a modified sine wave. That distortion
of English so that those who recommend UPSes will 'hope' the
UPS outputs cleaner power.

Meanwhile, in battery backup mode, either the power strip
protector is quickly degraded OR the UPS is damaged. And so
we have the technical reasons why a power strip protector must
not be used on UPS outputs. APC, et al will not admit this in
app noted for the naive because it would demonstrate how
'dirty' UPS power really is.

Also nonsense is the myth that UPS provides effective
transient protection. That UPS only claims protection from a
type of transient that does not typically damage electronics.
What do they forget to mention? That UPS does not even claim
to protect from transients that typically destroy
electronics. Furthermore, effective protection costs about $1
per protected appliance and comes with more responsible names
such as Square D, Leviton, Intermatic, Siemens, Cutler Hammer,
Polyphaser, and GE.

The best power strip is one that costs $3+ at Home Depot,
Lowes, or WalMart and that contains THE most critical
protection device on a power strip - 15 amp circuit breaker.
This breaker not for transistor protection. That 15 amp
breaker is essential to human protection.

Now about AVR - and again some numbers. What is the voltage
range of that AVR? Well, any properly constructed computer
works just fine from 130 VAC down to 90 VAC. That means you
incandescent lamps are at less than 40% intensity and still
the computer must work just fine at 100%. Is your voltage
dropping that low? If so, then your electric motors are at
much greater risk. IOW AVR is more necessary for motorized
appliances. But the UPS cannot power motors. What is the AVR
doing ... once we include the numbers? Nothing if your
incandescent lamps are staying more than 50% bright.

APC and Tripplite are recommended by those without basic
electrical knowledge. A severe symptom of so many previous
posts. They did not provide numbers. Notice that once
numbers are applies, the claims take on a different tone.
Explained is why a power strip is not good on UPS outputs,
that the APC app note assumes the reader has no electrical
knowledge, AND that AVR solves what the power supply has
already made irrelevant.

Rob wrote:
> I've read about some ups's having their outlets too close to each
> other. With that in mind, if I use my current stuff which is all
> plugged into a surge protector (in a strip) and leave that as is and
> just unplug this surge protector from the wall and plug it into the
> ups (so I will therefore use just one outlet on this ups) and assuming
> I use an adequate powered ups, will this be okay? I may elect to not
> do this for some peripherals anyway like my scanner and printer. Or
> must I separate all the devices plugged into the surge protector and
> plug them separately in the ups? I will probably use at least a
> 300watt ups which seems to be adequate based on the Tripp Lite and APC
> web sites.
>
> Also not all ups's mention AVR. Is AVR that important for Houston,
> Texas electricity?
>
> I gather APC and Tripp Lite (sp??) are the best brands to go with?
 
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w_tom wrote:
>
> Appreciate the integrity - basic technical knowledge - of so
> many replies. For example, to meet UL standards, a power
> strip must be able to provide 15 amps to any one receptacle OR
> provide the total of 15 amps to all the receptacles. If any
> receptacle is 'starved' for current, then a fire hazard exists
> inside the power strip - it does not get a UL rating. However
> another provided this app note from APC:
> http://tinyurl.com/ctmng
>
> <snip>

OK, so what brand *does* perform as expected?

Notan
 
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"Kevin Childers" <kchilder@mail.win.org> wrote in message
news:wO%Ve.2065$Q71.958@fe02.lga...
> "Robert R Kircher, Jr." <rrkircher@hotmail.com> wrote in
> message
> news:KpadnY_FSJdBGbXeRVn-ow@giganews.com...
>>
>> "Fred Mau" <fred-dot-mau@comcast.net> wrote in message
>> news:Xns96D18111AF2D1freddotmaucomcastnet@216.196.97.131...
>> > "Robert R Kircher, Jr." <rrkircher@hotmail.com> wrote
>> > in
>> > news:cISdnZdUS7Qd7rXeRVn-3w@giganews.com:
>> >
>> >>
>> >> That said, APC does make fabulous equipment. ALL my
>> >> UPS's are APC and
>> >> I have all makes and models from big rack mount units
>> >> to those SOHO
>> >> bricks that sit on the floor behind a desk.
>> >>
>> >> I don't blame APC at all for doing everything possible
>> >> to promote
>> >> their products. Where I have a problem is when people
>> >> don't use simple
>> >> common since in regards to the propaganda.
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > Personally, I used to prefer SOLA over APC, but SOLA
>> > seems to have
>> > vanished
>> > from the marketplace, I haven't seen any in 4-5 years.
>> > Anybody know
>> > whatever hapopened to them ? Are they still around
>> > under a different
> name
>> > ?

SOLA seems to have morphed into SOLA/Hevi-Duty
http://www.solaheviduty.com/

it solo :)
>
> So, now who's been spending to much time in the break
> room?
>
> KC
>
>
 
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"w_tom" <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4328885B.B922706D@hotmail.com...
> Appreciate the integrity - basic technical knowledge - of so
> many replies. For example, to meet UL standards, a power
> strip must be able to provide 15 amps to any one receptacle OR
> provide the total of 15 amps to all the receptacles. If any
> receptacle is 'starved' for current, then a fire hazard exists
> inside the power strip - it does not get a UL rating. However
> another provided this app note from APC:
> http://tinyurl.com/ctmng
>> Using surge strips with APC's Back-UPS and Smart-UPS products.
>> Surge protectors filter the power for surges and offer EMI/RFI
>> filtering but do not efficiently distribute the power, meaning
>> that some equipment may be deprived of the necessary amperage it
>> requires to run properly - causing your attached equipment
>> (computer, monitor, etc) to shutdown or reboot.
>
> Are we to believe the EMI/RFI filtering starves some
> receptacle with insufficient current? Who writes this stuff?
> Well APC is promoted to those who don't have even basic
> electrical knowledge which is why some foolishly praise APC
> products.
>
> Now for the electrical reasons why a power strip should not
> be used on UPS outputs. Those UPSes imply they provided
> cleaner power. So lets now do the numbers - what those so
> many other posters never provided. This 120V UPS in battery
> backup mode outputs two 200 volts square waves with up to a
> 270 volt spike between those square waves. The UPS
> manufacturer calls that a modified sine wave. That distortion
> of English so that those who recommend UPSes will 'hope' the
> UPS outputs cleaner power.
>
> Meanwhile, in battery backup mode, either the power strip
> protector is quickly degraded OR the UPS is damaged. And so
> we have the technical reasons why a power strip protector must
> not be used on UPS outputs. APC, et al will not admit this in
> app noted for the naive because it would demonstrate how
> 'dirty' UPS power really is.
>
> Also nonsense is the myth that UPS provides effective
> transient protection. That UPS only claims protection from a
> type of transient that does not typically damage electronics.
> What do they forget to mention? That UPS does not even claim
> to protect from transients that typically destroy
> electronics. Furthermore, effective protection costs about $1
> per protected appliance and comes with more responsible names
> such as Square D, Leviton, Intermatic, Siemens, Cutler Hammer,
> Polyphaser, and GE.
>
> The best power strip is one that costs $3+ at Home Depot,
> Lowes, or WalMart and that contains THE most critical
> protection device on a power strip - 15 amp circuit breaker.
> This breaker not for transistor protection. That 15 amp
> breaker is essential to human protection.
>
> Now about AVR - and again some numbers. What is the voltage
> range of that AVR? Well, any properly constructed computer
> works just fine from 130 VAC down to 90 VAC. That means you
> incandescent lamps are at less than 40% intensity and still
> the computer must work just fine at 100%. Is your voltage
> dropping that low? If so, then your electric motors are at
> much greater risk. IOW AVR is more necessary for motorized
> appliances. But the UPS cannot power motors. What is the AVR
> doing ... once we include the numbers? Nothing if your
> incandescent lamps are staying more than 50% bright.
>


Excellent explanation, Mr. Edison... I'll have to get my Electricians Guide
to the Universe to decipher some of it however. ;-)

Two things I do know however.

1) I would never and didn't suggest plugging a power strip into the battery
protected outlets of a UPS so I'm not too worried about an even 15 amps
being distributed to every plug in the strip when the UPS in on battery.

2) I'm not too sure what you are implying with the AVR description but until
I have time to consult the Electricians Guide to the Universe I'll assume
you are implying that the effectiveness of a UPS is 0 as long as my lamp is
still on at 50%. Frankly, if this is the case, I don't care because what I
really care about is when my lamp is on at 0%. *This* is were I want my UPS
to do something.

So if I'm missunderconfused please try plain English with out all the fancy
schmancy numbers. Small words would help since I can't seem to find my
copy of the EG to the U. ;-)

--

Rob
 
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"Fred Mau" <fred-dot-mau@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Xns96D18D09FCE63freddotmaucomcastnet@216.196.97.131...
> Shel <scs@XXXieee.org> wrote in news:5irgi19h7jrmtq1qod2ocv89ncrelqc5s2@
> 4ax.com:
>
>> On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 12:08:19 -0400, "Ted Zieglar" <teddyz@notmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Do NOT plug a power strip into a UPS, particularly one with a surge
>>>protector.
>>
>> Why is the surge protector a no-no?
>>
>>
>
>
> Surge protectors generally have a combination of Toroids and Varistors
> that could - theoretically - have a reactance which would change the
> power factor (That is, the phase shift between the voltage and current
> curves on the sine wave) in ways that MIGHT cause the UPS circuitry to
> not operate correctly, either by not kicking in at all or kicking in
> when it shouldn't. When small SOHO UPSs started appearing in the '80s,
> there were stories of this causing premature failures and even fires in
> an instance or two, but AFAIK totally unproven - I think they were just
> grasping at straws and didn't have anything ELSE to blame the failures
> on.
>
> When I was with a previous employer, we deliberately popped some UPSs by
> changing the power factor, not specifically to test the UPS but just to
> analyze how our downstream equipment would handle it and as part of our
> UL/ETL listing requirements. But we were at power factors and
> reflectance waveforms that you would NEVER see in the real world.
>
> For all practical purposes, this ISN'T going to happen in a SOHO
> environment with one power strip plugged into a UPS. In a commercial
> office building where I might have hundreds (or thousands) of surge
> protectors connected to a central power source, I *might* start to think
> about it.
>

In almost all commercial spaces that I've been in or installed systems the
local electrical inspectors will make you remove power strips from UPS's
most likely for the reason Tom (Edison) mentions in his post. I think,
however, you make the best point of the tread, when you say "for all
practical purposes, this isn't going to happen in a SOHO environment."
That's been my point all along.

--

Rob
 
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Notan wrote:
> OK, so what brand *does* perform as expected?
>
> Notan

First, define what you "expected"? What problems are to be
addressed by a UPS? Five basic electrical problems exist:
blackouts, brownouts, harmonics, noise, and surges. Which
problems are to be addressed - and what is to be protected?

For example, blackouts and brownouts do not harm properly
designed electronic hardware. This even demanded by industry
standards 30 years ago. But blackouts and extreme brownouts
can damage data. So we install a UPS to protect data (not
hardware) from blackouts and brownouts. A typical plug-in UPS
(even a cheapest type) may do just that. Meanwhile it does
not address harmonics, noise, and surge problems. Those are
addressed elsewhere by other equipment.

IOW before one can fix a problem, first, the problem must be
defined. "Expected" is a subjective term so often used by
junk scientists - who fear to discuss numbers. To answer the
question usefully, first, numbers are required for what is
acceptable and what is considered a problem. No numbers is
how ineffective solutions are so often promoted - at
excessively high cost. First, what is the problem to be
solved?
 
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w_tom wrote:
>
> Notan wrote:
> > OK, so what brand *does* perform as expected?
> >
> > Notan
>
> First, define what you "expected"? What problems are to be
> addressed by a UPS? Five basic electrical problems exist:
> blackouts, brownouts, harmonics, noise, and surges. Which
> problems are to be addressed - and what is to be protected?
>
> For example, blackouts and brownouts do not harm properly
> designed electronic hardware. This even demanded by industry
> standards 30 years ago. But blackouts and extreme brownouts
> can damage data. So we install a UPS to protect data (not
> hardware) from blackouts and brownouts. A typical plug-in UPS
> (even a cheapest type) may do just that. Meanwhile it does
> not address harmonics, noise, and surge problems. Those are
> addressed elsewhere by other equipment.
>
> IOW before one can fix a problem, first, the problem must be
> defined. "Expected" is a subjective term so often used by
> junk scientists - who fear to discuss numbers. To answer the
> question usefully, first, numbers are required for what is
> acceptable and what is considered a problem. No numbers is
> how ineffective solutions are so often promoted - at
> excessively high cost. First, what is the problem to be
> solved?

Sorry to sound so vague, but living in the mountains of Colorado,
the answer to your question is "yes."

In other words, all the above.

Notan

While I've got you on the line, another question: If plugging
a power strip into a UPS is verboten, how does one protect
a number of wall-wart powered devices, without purchasing a
number of UPSs? (The reason I mention wall-warts is, as you
well know, the space they take up is usually more than one
outlet's worth.)
 

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