Question UPS or stick to surge protector?

[anvoice]

I have a well-reviewed surge protector (rebranded APC device with high Joule rating), as well as a Cyberpower pure sine wave UPS, which has a much lower Joule rating. After a bunch of digging around the net years ago, especially with the advice to not plug UPS units into surge suppressors (somewhat contrary to many companies that argue surge suppression is needed upstream from a UPS), I decided to simply forego the UPS and plug my PC into the surge protector alone, risking losing some work if I forget to save but feeling safer with the more capable surge suppression. In general though, power outages here are far more common than thunderstorms, so it wouldn't be a bad thing to incorporate the UPS.

Question: does anyone know for sure if it would be OK to try plugging the UPS into the surge protector (perhaps the UPS and nothing else so as to avoid diverting power from UPS)?

One of the main arguments against this is that the UPS might switch to battery more often, but I can monitor that and change everything back if necessary. But would I be creating some other major hazard?

I realize some may argue that a UPS provides enough surge protection on its own, and can be used standalone. But my UPS has shorter warranty I think, so if a major surge burns my system I won't be covered with the UPS. Also, the big one: the UPS from what I understand has no indication that its surge suppression has failed, so it will continue powering the system until another surge fries it. The surge protector will indicate with a clearly visible red light that it failed, and mine actually stops power after the protection wears out. Therefore I'm likely to avoid the UPS if I can't use a surge suppressor with it.

 

[Deleted member 14196]

I would plug the surge protector into the UPS not other way

 

[bill001g]

It likely does not make any difference. I can't see why a UPS won't work on a surge protector, what happens if you have one of those surge protection systems mounted in the power panel that protect the whole house.

What I found out was no matter what you do something like lightning can get past any protection. I had a lightning strike someplace very close. I had stuff on a couple different UPS and even some smaller surge protection past the UPS.
I loss all kinds of stuff. Power bricks mostly but strange stuff like ethernet port connected to equipment that did not get damaged. Even the onboard video port on 1 pc.

There seems no damage to any of the UPS and the one cheap surge protector I took apart and actually tested the parts inside show all perfectly fine even though multiple power bricks on that one were destroyed.

I would more run the UPS not so much for surges but because unexpected power loss can cause data corruption. Your hardware will like not be affected but you might spend hours trying to recover. I mean if you update a motherboard bios and get unlucky and power goes out it is a brick in most cases.

 

[Deleted member 14196]

That’s why you buy Tripplite surge suppressor’s. The isobars are guaranteed up to $50,000 for whatever is plugged into them.

should they be penetrated by lightning you should get your money back for whatever was plugged in

these are the only ones that I recommend. They make them with less ports as well.
https://tripplite.eaton.com/isobar-8-outlet-surge-protector-12-ft-cord-3840-joules~ISOBAR8ULTRA

 

[bill001g]

When this happens you will quickly find out most warranties like this are close to useless. They want all kinds of receipts etc and they want you to ship things at your own expense. Shipping a monitor crazy expensive when it is just a power block.
You also will be without the device for who know how many weeks while they decide if they are going to pay to fix it.
Who know what other things like depreciated values etc etc insurance companies have in the fine print. It is not the actual company you are dealing with they bought a policy from another company who is doing all this stuff.

It is like I could have attempted to claim this against my home owner insurance. It was getting close to the deductible but then I would also lose the discount I get for no claims for three years.

I quickly decided it was not worth all the hassle and just replaced all the stuff myself.
I guess if you had to pay someone to come into your house and troubleshoot this the cost might go up. I mean you don't even realize that ethernet port is bad until you replace the power supply.
My home owner insurance would cover that cost also but I doubt the surge protection companies cover it.

 

[anvoice]

Thanks for the feedback!

Fair enough, I wasn't particularly counting on getting the insurance as much as on the fact that my APC rebrand will shut off power and clearly indicate when it fails. I do understand that a nearby lightning strike will still overwhelm anything not unplugged, but at least it's some additional safety.

I would plug the surge protector into the UPS not other way

Would you mind elaborating? I usually hear it's recommended (if at all) to do it the other way around.

 

[JeffreyP55]

Surge protectors should be pluggeg from AC outlet. Surge protectors are the first line of defense from catastrophic damage.. UPS and all other peripherals should be plugged in the same fashion. Surge protector 1st.

 

[geofelt]

I have been advised by a person I trust that the surge protector connects to the wall outlet, and the ups connects to the surge protector.

Past that, most surge protectors will operate by self destruct.
He suggests a quality unit like a surgex flatpack.
They are not cheap:
https://www.amazon.com/SurgeX-SA-82...ocphy=1015068&hvtargid=pla-353994767519&psc=1

 

[USAFRet]

What I found out was no matter what you do something like lightning can get past any protection. I had a lightning strike someplace very close. I had stuff on a couple different UPS and even some smaller surge protection past the UPS.
I loss all kinds of stuff. Power bricks mostly but strange stuff like ethernet port connected to equipment that did not get damaged. Even the onboard video port on 1 pc

I had pretty near that exact same experience in summer 2020.

Multiple weird things broken....HDMI/Ethernet...nothing associated with 'power'.

 

[anvoice]

I have been advised by a person I trust that the surge protector connects to the wall outlet, and the ups connects to the surge protector.

He suggests a quality unit like a surgex flatpack.

Sounds good.

Did that person mention by any chance the tradeoffs of opting for a cheaper surge protector from a reputable brand? It is a slightly big jump to spend 15x on a unit if it only offers a small advantage.

Edit: seems like they use a different technology to traditional MOVs, which is more resilient. Since I run a computer and not a CPAP machine, I should be fine as long as my current surge protector actually shuts power off when it fails. Since it's very unlikely to actually see a spike that would fry it, I'm not sure I can justify the price of the SurgeX if its main benefit is longevity and ability to recover after a spike.

I'll try plugging the UPS into the surge protector and report back what the results are.

 

[CelicaGT]

Since pretty much all UPS contain surge protection already perhaps it's best to do what the manufacturer suggests and plug the UPS into the wall directly. The best advise is often found in the manual. Getting a good UPS replaces all the other stuff and provides MUCH better protection.

 

[anvoice]

Since pretty much all UPS contain surge protection already perhaps it's best to do what the manufacturer suggests and plug the UPS into the wall directly. The best advise is often found in the manual. Getting a good UPS replaces all the other stuff and provides MUCH better protection.

As I mentioned, my problem is not that the UPS doesn't protect against surges. It's that once its surge protection fails, it will probably keep delivering power, and has no way to notify me it has failed. While the scenario is unlikely, I prefer to forego the UPS and use a good surge protector with a fail safe mechanism in such a situation.

If it is indeed safe to use a surge protector upstream though, I am very interested. Understanding whether that is the case was the reason for my question.

 

[CelicaGT]

As I mentioned, my problem is not that the UPS doesn't protect against surges. It's that once its surge protection fails, it will probably keep delivering power, and has no way to notify me it has failed. While the scenario is unlikely, I prefer to forego the UPS and use a good surge protector with a fail safe mechanism in such a situation.

If it is indeed safe to use a surge protector upstream though, I am very interested. Understanding whether that is the case was the reason for my question.

It is generally not recommended to do so. My experience is at much higher voltages and currents (7200V, 3000A peak usually) but circuit protection typically should stand alone. There are exceptions such as fuses and thermal overload relays for motor starters but this is not the case here. My advice is to stick to one or the other. There is a lot of expensive equipment at stake and stacking circuit protections of probably unknown types which possibly could interfere with one another simply introduces variables that are...undesirable.

 

[anvoice]

There is a lot of expensive equipment at stake and stacking circuit protections of probably unknown types which possibly could interfere with one another simply introduces variables that are...undesirable.

I see where you're coming from. If I had to choose one, I'd stick to the more capable surge protector, although considering there are things such as whole-house surge protector devices that play just fine with a UPS (and companies that specifically make them to protect your UPS, though usually in more industrial settings) I'm having trouble deciding.

Do you have any information on what specifically might go wrong with an outlet->surge protector->UPS->computer setup? If it's as simple as APC's claim that the UPS might start switching to battery more often and wear it out, I can catch that pretty easily.

 

[bill001g]

I don't think it is true that the UPS will switch to battery more. Almost all surge protection is done with a few simple devices called MOV.

All they do is when the voltage exceeds some level they absorb the extra voltage and convert it to heat basically. They only absorb the extra voltage the normal voltage will continue to flow to the UPS.

 

[Ralston18]

And, just add a thought, remember that surge protection (joules) is cumulative.

After absorbing the rated amount of joules the surge protection is gone/non-existent.

Be it one big surge or a series of small surges.

FYI (not a product endorsement or recommendation. Just for the information provided.):

https://www.rockwallelectric.com/po...ctor-joules-and-what-joule-rating-do-you-need