Question USBs in front panel working bad, too low +12V voltage and strange thing looking like congealed glue in PSU Elementum E2 Sl-450

[ELdred]

Hi,

my problem started with USB ports not working properly in front panel of my PC. When I was using external SDD connected to one of these ports (either USB 2.0 or 3.0) it worked just sometimes, speed of transfer varied and when I checked the disk using a program that scans surface, there were CRC errors... I even replaced the external case for the 2,5'' SSD, but I figured out later that the disk and the external case were absolutely fine when I plugged it to any USB port available at back of my PC and there were no CRC errors.
I have motherboard MSI B75MA-P45 and PSU Elementum E2 Sl-450, I bought this computer from someone a year ago and it was already used I think about 2 years. I plugged the connector for USBs of front panel to JUSB2 instead of JUSB1 on my mainboard, but the problem was still there. I cleaned the computer form dust (also inside PSU) and it didn't help. I checked voltages in BIOS and they look fine, for example voltage +12 V is about 11,85 V. However right now in HWMonitor (I'm using Windows 10) you can see that voltage +12 V is only about 8,2 V. Voltage +5V seems to be too high, it is +5,6 V. See screenshot:

Also a strange thing I discovered when cleaning my PSU from dust (see below). I am not familiar much with electronics... is it normal thing - that white something that looks like congealed glue in there ?!

 

[Aeacus]

also inside PSU

You opened up the PSU, are you nuts?


Do you want to kill yourself?

I am not familiar much with electronics...

If you are not familiar with electronics, then why even open up the PSU???

PSU must NEVER be opened! There are 0 user serviceable parts in it. Moreover, capacitors in PSU hold lethal charge for very long time. Even years after the PSU hasn't been powered on.

that white something that looks like congealed glue in there ?!

If you must know, it is RTV (room temperature vulcanizing) silicone and it is used to hold components in place.
Further reading: https://help.corsair.com/hc/en-us/articles/19865249617037-PSU-What-is-this-goo-in-my-CORSAIR-PSU

you can see that voltage +12 V is only about 8,2 V.

Way out of spec voltages.

According to the ATX PSU standard, safe voltage ranges are:
+12V DC rail - tolerance ±5% ; +11.40V to +12.60V
+5V DC rail - tolerance ±5% ; +4.75V to +5.25V
+3.3V DC rail - tolerance ±5% ; +3.14V to +3.47V
-12V DC rail - tolerance ±10% ; -10.80V to -13.20V
+5V SB rail - tolerance ±5% ; +4.75V to +5.25V

So, +12V rail, at lowest, should be 11.40V. Yours is mere 8.2V...
+5V rail, at max, should be 5.25V. Yours is way above 5.6V...

Replace the PSU ASAP! Unless, you want it to kill your entire PC (and yourself too, when you go poking around inside of it).

Good PSUs to go for, are: Seasonic Focus/Vertex/PRIME, Corsair RMx/RMi/HXi/AXi, Super Flower Leadex Gold/Platinum/Titanium.
For your build, 550W range does fine. 650W unit doesn't hurt either.

(My 3x PCs are also powered by Seasonic. I have 2x PRIME TX-650 units and one Focus PX-550 unit. Full specs with pics in my sig.)

 

[ELdred]

I was very careful when opening PSU and I didn't touch anything inside, so was there any real danger? I think I should have thick rubber gloves though. I did this to remove dust from it by blowing air with my mouth - seriously, was it dangerous and why? Secondly, how do you know my PSU is faulty? Maybe it's motherboard? In which places of PSU or motherboard should I diagnoze voltages using electric meter? I really appreciate all the advices, thanks.
Also, I wonder why voltages shown in BIOS look correct, but in Windows look incorrect? Maybe it's because there is more power consumption going on when OS is running?

 

[Eximo]

Seconded, you really shouldn't open up power supplies, even for cleaning. Compressed air cans or other pressurized duster is as deep as you should go.

If you insist. The one hand rule. Whenever you are touching potentially charged electronics, only use one hand. This is to prevent a shock across your heart. Even small capacitors can carry enough current to stop it, or create a fibrillation that will require medical attention. (What the shocky paddles you see on TV are actually for)

And yes, you should use an insulated screw driver and insulated glove for maximum safety when working on high voltage.

 

[ELdred]

Seconded, you really shouldn't open up power supplies, even for cleaning. Compressed air cans or other pressurized duster is as deep as you should go.

If you insist. The one hand rule. Whenever you are touching potentially charged electronics, only use one hand. This is to prevent a shock across your heart. Even small capacitors can carry enough current to stop it, or create a fibrillation that will require medical attention. (What the shocky paddles you see on TV are actually for)

And yes, you should use an insulated screw driver and insulated glove for maximum safety when working on high voltage.

Thanks. But could it faulty motherboard? Or is it PSU for sure? How to diagnoze it before replacing anything... it costs!

 

[Eximo]

Confirmation that the voltages are actually low would be nice. If you have a multimeter handy, you can check under a load (the only proper test of PSU voltage) System load can change the behavior of a PSU. Or you do have a short somewhere which is dragging the voltage down. USB ports are a common failure point since they can be easily damaged.

Cheap motherboard and a cheap PSU, so not sure I would make a lot of effort in troubleshooting. 3rd gen intel hardware should be inexpensive, but I would actually recommend complete replacement.

Older model i3, 10th and 12th gen, are quite cheap and equivalent to 6th and 7th gen i7. DDR4 is very inexpensive at the moment as well. And you need a better PSU regardless if you want a system to last a while.

Local prices may vary:

PCPartPicker Part List

CPU: Intel Core i3-10100F 3.6 GHz Quad-Core Processor ($68.00 @ Amazon)
Motherboard: Gigabyte H410M H V2 Micro ATX LGA1200 Motherboard ($72.22 @ Amazon)
Memory: Silicon Power GAMING 16 GB (2 x 8 GB) DDR4-3200 CL16 Memory ($29.97 @ Amazon)
Power Supply: MSI MAG A550BN 550 W 80+ Bronze Certified ATX Power Supply ($58.99 @ Amazon)
Total: $229.18
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2024-08-28 17:09 EDT-0400

 

[ELdred]

In which places in particular should I check voltages ? Again, how do I know whether it's faulty PSU or motherboard? I dont want to invest any money more than it's absolutely necessary for this PC to operate normally.
I asked ChatGPT and it claims that my computer consumes only about 170W , so why would I need any better PSU than 450 W ?!

 

[bit_user]

my problem started with USB ports not working properly in front panel of my PC.

Was this a home-built PC or a major OEM brand (Dell, HP, Lenovo, etc.)?

Do the front USB ports have markings or blue colored plastic to indicate that they're USB 3 compatible? Some cases are only designed to support USB 2.0 speeds in the front. Perhaps you're dealing with USB 2.0-spec ports plugged into USB 3 motherboard headers.

FWIW, I always plug storage into the rear USB ports, just to minimize the potential for issues like these.

 

[Aeacus]

I did this to remove dust from it by blowing air with my mouth

Air you blow out from your mouth contains saliva. That is electrically conductive and you can easily short out the PSU once you turn it on again. Hence why use compressed air, since that doesn't contain moisture.

seriously, was it dangerous and why?

Everything to do with power delivery is serious business. And you not knowing anything about how electricity or PSUs work, means you have 0 business opening one up and "fixing" it. You can not fix a bad PSU.

Many people have electrocuted themselves by grossly underestimating the power of low-voltage. Every year, far more people have been electrocuted by low-voltage than that of a high-voltage. Under right circumstances, even your phone's battery can kill you.

There is a reason why electricians have to have valid license and extensive education, before they can poke around in any power supply unit or electrical panel.

Secondly, how do you know my PSU is faulty? Maybe it's motherboard?

MoBo doesn't tell the PSU how PSU must operate. It's the PSU's job to take the 120V/240V AC from the mains and turn it into 12V, 5V and 3.3V DC, while maintaining the correct voltage levels regardless the varying loads of what other PC components may pull from it. If the PSU can not maintain e.g 12V rail within spec - it is PSU's fault and not MoBo's fault.

In which places of PSU or motherboard should I diagnoze voltages using electric meter?

Testing the PSU, while powered on, but without 0 load (on idle), doesn't tell anything meaningful. You need to test PSU under load, but such PSU testing equipment costs a lot of money and only few people have such equipment.

In a similar sense; testing idle PSU with multimeter is like turning on the car's engine and instantly assuming the car drives fine, without ever doing the test drive.

But if you still want to test idle PSU, here's guide about how to do it,
link: https://www.corsair.com/us/en/explo...ly-units/how-to-test-a-psu-power-supply-unit/

Also, I wonder why voltages shown in BIOS look correct, but in Windows look incorrect? Maybe it's because there is more power consumption going on when OS is running?

In BIOS, there is minimal load on PSU and voltages may look within spec. Once OS loads, there's more load on PSU (e.g for one, GPU draws more power to display desktop). And that small increase in load on PSU, can be enough for crap quality PSU, to fail on voltage regulation, thus, making it to feed way out of spec voltages to the PC.

If you keep using that PSU, it WILL damage and kill your PC. So, besides new PSU, you're then also looking towards new whole PC.

Or is it PSU for sure?

For 2nd opinion about your PSU, look it up from PSU tier list,
link: https://forums.tomshardware.com/thr...er-list-rev-14-8-final-update-jul-21.3624094/

You'll find your SilentiumPC Elementum E2 SI 450W (specs) unit under Tier D, low priority units. It's essentially crap quality.
While what i suggested earlier, and am personally using, are all Tier A.

I asked ChatGPT and it claims that my computer consumes only about 170W , so why would I need any better PSU than 450 W ?!

ChatGPT isn't some oracle, for anyone to believe it's responses as holy revelation. ChatGPT is semi-intelligent program, machine learned to give some responses.

And even while your PC may consume ~170W, the fact is that there aren't many 450W units out there that are of good or great quality. Usually 450W units are mediocre/low/crap quality. Hence why i said 550W, while 650W doesn't hurt either.

And since today's PCs consume a lot of power (namely GPUs), you can find that 750W PSUs are actually cheaper than their 550W counterparts.

E.g Corsair RM750x, a good quality 750W PSU, has equal price to Corsair CX450m, a mediocre quality 450W PSU,
pcpp: https://pcpartpicker.com/products/compare/FQ648d,6NcG3C/

Or Seasonic Focus GX-650, another good quality 650W PSU, is actually cheaper than Seasonic S12III, a crap quality 550W PSU,
pcpp: https://pcpartpicker.com/products/compare/3G97YJ,RzfFf7/

So, why pay same or more money for inferior PSU? Having 100-200W excess on PSU's capacity doesn't hurt the system.

 

[USAFRet]

ChatGPT isn't some oracle, for anyone to believe it's responses as holy relevation. ChatGPT is semi-intelligent program, machine learned to give some responses.

"semi-intelligent" is being generous.

 

[blazorthon]

Do the front USB ports have markings or blue colored plastic to indicate that they're USB 3 compatible? Some cases are only designed to support USB 2.0 speeds in the front. Perhaps you're dealing with USB 2.0-spec ports plugged into USB 3 motherboard headers.

FWIW, I always plug storage into the rear USB ports, just to minimize the potential for issues like these.

The USB headers on that board with the labels ELdred mentioned, JUSB1 and JUSB2, are both USB 2.0 headers.
https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E16813130655

https://c1.neweggimages.com/ProductImageOriginal/13-130-655-04.jpg

Way out of spec voltages.

According to the ATX PSU standard, safe voltage ranges are:
+12V DC rail - tolerance ±5% ; +11.40V to +12.60V
+5V DC rail - tolerance ±5% ; +4.75V to +5.25V
+3.3V DC rail - tolerance ±5% ; +3.14V to +3.47V
-12V DC rail - tolerance ±10% ; -10.80V to -13.20V
+5V SB rail - tolerance ±5% ; +4.75V to +5.25V

So, +12V rail, at lowest, should be 11.40V. Yours is mere 8.2V...
+5V rail, at max, should be 5.25V. Yours is way above 5.6V...

I do not believe the computer would boot and function if a 12V rail was truly at 8.2V. That reading is probably incorrect. This can be confirmed with a multimeter by putting the multimeter's red lead on any bare metal of a yellow wire coming out of the power supply and the black lead on any bare metal of a black wire coming out of a power supply. However, if the 12V rail was really that far out of spec, the computer shouldn't work at all, let alone work just fine with the exception of the front USB ports. Those USB ports don't even use 12V power, I don't see that being related.

I was very careful when opening PSU and I didn't touch anything inside, so was there any real danger? I think I should have thick rubber gloves though. I did this to remove dust from it by blowing air with my mouth - seriously, was it dangerous and why? Secondly, how do you know my PSU is faulty? Maybe it's motherboard? In which places of PSU or motherboard should I diagnoze voltages using electric meter? I really appreciate all the advices, thanks.
Also, I wonder why voltages shown in BIOS look correct, but in Windows look incorrect? Maybe it's because there is more power consumption going on when OS is running?

You shouldn't open up a computer power supply nor really any modern power supply. They often contain around 380V DC in the large bulk capacitors, just as one example, which is very dangerous. Those caps and anything directly connected to them have the voltage and enough stored energy to kill, and you can't tell if they're still energized or safe to touch at a glance. If something is wrong with the power supply, it is usually cheaper to buy a new one than try to fix a broken one, even if you have the skills to do so. In theory, any good power supply will discharge those caps quickly enough that they will be discharged to a safe level faster than you can turn the computer off, remove the power supply, and open it. In practice, cheap power supplies like that don't always have such safety-conscience designs. I recommend never opening a power supply. If it truly is faulty, you're better off buying a new one. A decent new power supply is cheaper than the tools needed to try fixing a broken power supply.

Your power supply is a pretty low quality unit, but it's most likely not the cause of this particular issue. The front USB ports or the cable going to them are most likely faulty, next most likely is something on the motherboard is to blame. If the computer otherwise still suits your needs, I would just buy a USB hub with a long enough cable, stick it in front of the computer, and plug it into a rear USB port. Replacing that low-quality power supply with a better one would be a good idea if not for the fact that you can buy a whole used computer newer than that one you have on Ebay for not much more than the cost of a decent power supply. Well, I don't know where you live, maybe that's not as affordable for you as it is for me. I've bought many used OEM computers for between $100 and $200 USD on Ebay for my employer's arcade games (somewhat annoying really, have to match the exact Dell/HP etc. model number for the motherboard or the software refuses to work), they even tend to come with a new (albeit very cheap) keyboard, mouse, and WiFi/Bluetooth USB adapter. Some even come with a monitor.

USB hubs on Newegg:
https://www.newegg.com/p/pl?d=USB+hub&SrchInDesc=3.0&Order=1&N=4204

Out of curiosity, what do you use this compute for?

 

[ELdred]

I do not believe the computer would boot and function if a 12V rail was truly at 8.2V. That reading is probably incorrect. This can be confirmed with a multimeter by putting the multimeter's red lead on any bare metal of a yellow wire coming out of the power supply and the black lead on any bare metal of a black wire coming out of a power supply.

This is exactly what I was looking for. Are you sure that doing this while PC is running won't break it in any way? I have a multimeter here.

 

[blazorthon]

Doing a voltage reading with a multimeter is safe on a running machine if you don't slip up. Set the multimeter to DC voltage in the lowest range that is higher than 12V and make sure you don't let either lead touch more than one wire. Letting them touch more than one wire would short said wires together, which would be bad. Also, attempting to use the multimeter in either current mode would be very bad for the computer. Attempting to use the meter in resistance mode would be bad for the computer and bad for the meter. If you do it correctly as instructed in above posts, you shouldn't damage anything.

 

[bill001g]

This is exactly what I was looking for. Are you sure that doing this while PC is running won't break it in any way? I have a multimeter here.

If you mess up of course you can damage a lot of stuff. You are sticking metal probes where it was not designed to go.

So the first option is to try to measure the voltages by inserting the probes into the back of the 24 pin connector. There tends to be enough room to get a probe in next to the wire and make contact with the metal below it. Problem is how hard is it to get to the 24 pin connector in your machine, can you even see it in some machine or is the video card blocking it.

Since most power supplies only have a single 12 volt power source it might be easier to measure a spare connector coming off the power supply. Many people have extra video card power cables/connectors coming off the power supply. Look at the pin out diagrams to see which are 12 volt and which are ground.

You could also use a spare cable that is used for a disk drive those many times have 5 and 3 volt power in addition to 12 volt if you needed to test other voltages.

My guess is the machine would not even boot if it really was that far off 12 volts.

 

[bill001g]

Maybe got off in the weeds on this issue. Maybe it is buried in the large text above but did you check that there is not a actual issue with the front panel connector itself.